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A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

common_sense2 12y ago
Did she really use the word 'sausagefest'? Ouch. That noise was credibility slamming the door on the way out.
- jnevill 12y ago
  Yes... the rest of her argument is moot because of the use of one word. That's really all it takes to ruin her credibility and ignore what she says. Either you are incredibly stupid or incredibly sexist... my guess is both.
  - woodman 12y ago
    > Either you are incredibly stupid or incredibly sexist... Yeah, and I bet he is a homophobic racist animal rapist as well! Fall in line or I might start imagining more labels!
  - blkhp19 12y ago
    No, it doesn't nullify her argument at all. It does paint her in a poor picture, though, which can change the way people interpret the rest of what she says.
- jxf 12y ago
  That's an uncharitable thing to say. Dismissing someone's entire argument because of a single word rather than considering the point at hand not only misses the forest for the trees, but also fails a pretty basic test of being a reasonable person: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument
- modfodder 12y ago
  And your credibility is tied to your first and only comment on HN complaining about the use of sausagefest in an otherwise salient article.
theVirginian 12y ago
Most of these incidents just sound like guys who were genuinely trying to be nice or funny, but because anything can be seen through the lens of sexism, this woman took the opportunity to consider herself oppressed.
- alxjrvs 12y ago
  I am reasonably convinced that even those trying to be nice or funny can be sexist, and in fact, can be sexist while trying to be nice or funny. I am also convinced that sexism is a societal problem, and not the hand-wringing of a few key dudes. There are plenty of things in Computer Science / engineering / etc that are trying to be nice/funny, but contribute to a strong culture of sexism.
  - theVirginian 12y ago
    Possibly. As an outsider to the industry it is hard for me to understand exactly what people mean by sexism in the STEM fields. There is no cut and dry "Women cannot apply to this position." Instead it seems to be things like comments about the dress being fun which to me seem rather ambiguous about their intentions. I wouldn't consider that to be sexist, if I said that I would intend it as a compliment but I see stuff all the time about how seemingly innocent things like that are apparently sexist. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Even the recounting of guy talking about the Facebook internship seemed to me as if the guy was trying to joke about how she must be smart, so he should apply; as if he was trying to imply that it would have been a good idea/opportunity. I didn't interpret that incident as meaning that the guy thought he should get the internship over the girl, since she most certainly wasn't the only intern at Facebook over the summer.
    - lotso 12y ago
      A good starting place is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat
- knowtheory 12y ago
  Hopefully you can understand that intent isn't everything? Being considerate of others isn't just saying "pshht i didn't mean anything by it!" it's actually thinking about how other people might react in the circumstances they've been put in. You can call sexism a lens, but it might also help to understand the experiences others have lived (from their POV, not yours) to see why it's a lens that others are brought to employing.
danielmiessler 12y ago
30 points and on the front page, yet basically no commentary. That's a message by itself.
- Arnt 12y ago
  What is the message?
  - kleer001 12y ago
    The message is that sexism and harrasment are still pervasive in tech. Not an original statement, but still needs to be said, over and over again, until things change.
    - Kalium 12y ago
      Going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about sexism in tech is perhaps one of the best ways I can think of to make sure it doesn't change. It paints the picture that tech is a horrible place, so women should stay away. It tells people in tech that it's OK to be sexist, because everyone already is.
  - deleted 12y ago
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  - danielmiessler 12y ago
    The message I got from it was that Hacker News is tired of hearing about it, which is a bad sign indeed. Yet another message was sent by downvoting my comment, which I interpret to be because they thought I meant that nobody wants to hear about this anymore. And that WAS what I was saying, but I wasn't saying it was justified. Anyway...lots of messaging going on here.
- forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
  Is the message that this article doesn't present any information that hasn't been said before? What exactly are people supposed to be commenting on? Sexism seems to be a problem in this industry, along with many other industries. But I don't really know what you expect people to discuss every time an article like this gets posted to hacker news.
trhway 12y ago
are sexism and sexual harassment the same things? To me it sounded like she listed examples of both. I mean like the stranger in the night isn't exactly "sexism in tech", it is more like industry unrelated harassment bordering on assault. I'd venture to guess that such harassment/assault is even less probable from a college educated tech workers than from other demographic groups.
- alxjrvs 12y ago
  Sexism is pervasive. Sexual Harassment is generally goaded on by permissive environments, especially those that are largely male. The "Stranger in the Night" comment is definitely harassment, but it is not hard to see how its occurrence is relevant to the larger issue.
  - trhway 12y ago
    >it is not hard to see how its occurrence is relevant to the larger issue. my point is that it is really hard to see. How thinking that somebody is less capable as a programmer (or auto mechanic, TV announcer, whatever...) relevant to actual stalking/harassment/assault.
jneen 12y ago
I have heard most of these things, and it sucks. This is hella real.
- kleer001 12y ago
  Yup, it makes me a teeny bit more angry every time I read an article like this. Angry and disappointed.
  - hackcasual 12y ago
    I'm happy that she decided to share. It's easy to forget how real this issue can be. The shit show in the comments here when an article like this is new further demonstrates the fact that there's still more work to be done. I will say though I do like HN because it seems to pretty quickly approach reasonableness with the voting system.
- tracker1 12y ago
  It's not easy for anyone though... Firstly, there are some people that are just assholes. Second, men in general (not all men/women), tend to be more aggressive than women. This can be intimidating or plain off-putting at times. Excessive arrogance has always bugged me a lot. The third is that some people are socially awkward in general, which can lean towards other issues. Lastly, an all-male or all-female group will be much more crude or open about thoughts, jokes or concepts than in evenly mixed company. Groups that are very one-sided tend towards this as well. When I was younger, I worked in a few offices where I was the only man that worked there... What I overheard in those years of my life is far worse than what I've heard from any all-male or mostly-male offices I've ever worked in. With time, as the numbers tend to even out, the feel of a space that is more equally mixed (genuine assholes aside) will be more even... Personally, I prefer to work with all men day to day. I do have to interact with women in another office, and have worked with them fine. I am just less distracted without women around, and that is on me.
Jimmy 12y ago
Perhaps the people who have downvoted every comment so far would like to contribute to the conversation?
- PhoenixWright 12y ago
  The conversation is they're right and your sexist!
bdamm 12y ago
Well she writes like a junior because she is. But the main points she makes - subtle sexism regarding capability in the face of equivalent effort - are certainly observable and do ring true. When I see articles like this (and the issue of sexism in computing does pop up quite often) I usually agree. It is there. But what can be done? I myself have been a disgusting example of a male engineer at times. And as much as I would love to permanently erase any male/female alteration of my behavior in a professional context, the reality is I do not become asexual when I go to work. I'm still a man. What to do?
- nijiko 12y ago
  Be the change you want.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - bdamm 12y ago
    Well, as an example, when I'm working in a mixed team of say 2 women and 5 men, and we're in a meeting discussing technical options, I may tend to give the women more eye contact than the men. This can go two ways for the women; it can be considered leering (I try very hard not to do that, but it is very difficult) and so that is an example of harassment. But in a way I am also giving away power to the women; power that they did nothing to earn other than be pretty. One option is to stay heads down and surf ycombinator during a meeting. That way I'll not look at anyone inappropriately. That is not great for me though.
    - leif 12y ago
      You could try talking to them about this. Try "hey, I understand being in this industry can be difficult as a woman, I am not very familiar with the problem but I don't want to be part of it, and I'm concerned about how much eye contact I'm giving you during meetings. I don't want to make you uncomfortable with my eye contact or this question, but is it a problem for you?" Most likely they'll tell you they have a lot of worse things to deal with than how much eye contact you're giving them, but it'll be a learning experience and at least you'll open up a dialogue.
kleer001 12y ago
Yup, sounds like standard fare. I would have been impressed if she'd documented and reported this shitty behaviour. Then again Confrontation is difficult, no matter the context.
- jneen 12y ago
  As someone who has tried to document and report shitty behavior, it's important to keep in mind how risky that is. Here are a few patterns I've observed: pattern (a) MAN: does shitty thing; WOMAN: hey please stop; WOMAN's performance review: "has conflicts with MAN" pattern (b) MAN: does shitty thing; WOMAN: reports shitty thing; MANAGER: oh MAN is a nice guy, why don't you try working it out yourself pattern (c) MAN: does shitty thing; WOMAN: does nothing because she actually reports to MAN
  - bluecalm 12y ago
    This happens in hierarchies regardless of genders. Anyone bullied in school or a workplace can tell you this. You would need to measure if it in fact happens more often if it's a woman being a victim which is very difficult as most of those situations are not reported by neither gender.
    - jneen 12y ago
      See, I actually know it has to do with gender because I used to have a beard. I got treated very differently back then.
      - totony 12y ago
        How are you sure that what your experienced was solely based on gender?
  - mrits 12y ago
    Why would you report shitty behavior? Is that against some sort of code of conduct where you work?
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- ezy 12y ago
  That sounds like a weird off-hand complaint until you realize that she's not talking about once or twice -- she's talking about "making it a point" to do so. Even once or twice is perilous territory, unless it's in a particular context (she brings up the subject in conversation, for instance). That is, he was attracted to her, and wanted to let her know it. This comes up a lot when people believe that anything said with "positive intent" to women is actually positive. A lot of geeks don't get this. Women aren't stupid -- they recognize the compliment for what it is. Whenever you feel like you need to say something to a woman because your genitals throb -- think better of it. I've made this mistake -- it was subtle, not egregious (like the guy above), but I did. Nothing happened, and maybe she never noticed, but in retrospect, it's one of the those embarrassing things you do in life you get to re-live in idle moments. Don't let this happen to you. :-) It's important to understand that sexuality comes up everywhere. In our work cultures, we generally try to suppress it because even in an office with all men, it can become a distraction. With women in the workspace, it's much worse. Our society trains us to think of women as sexual objects who must always prioritize a man's perspective. Even if you are "enlightened", it's easy to slip up if you're too casual about it. When you want to offer a compliment on someone's appearance (in a nominally non-sexual context), you need to understand where it is coming from -- and do not lie to yourself. It's okay to be sexually attracted to someone in the workplace (that's humanity), but not ok to impose your desires on someone else without their consent.
isthesubeditor 12y ago
"Sausagefest"? Really? A sub-editor let this past? Wow. Standards have not just fallen, they are now used to clean one's shoes these days.
- modfodder 12y ago
  Another new poster whose sole comment is on the use of the word Sausagefest. Is this the start of a grassroots campaign to change the underlying negativity of the phrase to a positive? A group of sausage makers or butchers per chance?
  - ad-hominem 12y ago
    Another new poster That is an ad-hominem attack - are we better than this on HN? What does his account age matter if the point is valid?
    - modfodder 12y ago
      Why does the fact she used this word matter if the rest of the article is relevant. And if the poster has a problem with the rest of the article, why focus on this word choice rather than make a counter argument? And I believe my post wasn't ad-hominem because his point isn't valid.
      - totony 12y ago
        I didn't see the post you're referring to, but, even if it is invalid, it is ad hominem to try to get your point accross by doing this. Also, the terms used in an article matter, whatever the argument. Would you appreciate an article calling an office full of women a titfest?
        modfodder 12y ago
        If women had been in power for all of history and used that power to keep men subjugated, yes, I would appreciate calling an office full of women a titfest. History and context matter, unless you are part of the "men's movement".
blkhp19 12y ago
First of all, calling a group of guys a sausage fest is reverse sexism. If I called a classroom full of girls a barbie play-date, or a tea party, or a "fashion" class - regardless of the real reason for their gathering, people would be outraged - and rightfully so. None of those things are true and it's disrespectful to say something like that. Second, the guy who said "well I should have applied for that" might have said it because two people in a row standing right in front of him just said they had awesome internships at Facebook. Sure, he could have been a total prick and said it because she was a girl, but the fact that the 2 people he asked both said they interned at Facebook completely changes the context of the conversation. If he only asked the girl and responded that way, then that would be different - and that seems to be how she's thinking about it. She's not taking into account the actual context of the conversation. Wearing colorful, comfortable dresses sounds awesome. Yeah, I like tech T-shirts, and the latter was definitely the more common form of attire at the startup I interned at this past summer, but if someone wore a dress one day, I don't think it would be unusual for that person's manager to say "you look nice today" or "your outfit looks fun." And regarding the interview, it makes sense that you'll get "better results" by dressing like a techie. There are tons of girls who dress like techies. Wearing a T-shirt with a tech logo on it just sends the message that you love technology. It shouldn't be an important factor in an interview, but of course the way you dress sends a particular message. Wearing a dress doesn't send a negative message in any way, but a girl wearing a tech T-shirt comes across as someone who is super into tech - for the same reason a guy wearing a tech T-shirt looks more into tech than someone who wears a business suit to an interview. The T-shirt could be completely misrepresenting that person's interest in tech, but the point is it sends a particular message during an interview. I hate to conclude on such a sour note, but the girl the article is speaking about seems to think everyone is against her. It is absolutely possible that this girl experiences discrimination in the tech industry due to her gender, but the examples she talked about simply don't demonstrate that in a definitive way.
- asadotzler 12y ago
  The thing is, bklhp19, we don't need your analasys to tell us whether or not there are sexism and gender issues in tech and tech education. It's a fact and we know it so all you're offering here is a dismissal of this person's concern. Is that how you like to show up in the world, challenging or dismissing people around you when they take the time to communicate their experience of known problem space?
xname 12y ago
So, basically anything uncomfortable is sexism.
helllohi 12y ago
She doesn't mention other women at her internships. If she had spoken to other women and they too experienced levels of sexism then yes; but since she doesn't make the mention we don't know.
xname 12y ago
I know guys make all kinds of jokes during work, some of them are not PC. If they do / do not make those jokes with a female coworker, which one is considered as sexism?
cubetime 12y ago
I do sometimes wonder what's added by focusing on sexism in tech, in particular, and suggesting it's uniquely a problem with tech. I can believe it's worse here on average than some other comfortable professional jobs, but seriously, sexism is everywhere and if we want to reduce it, it makes more sense to me to focus on the problem itself in full generality rather than an environment it's found in. Unless you want to invoke an explanation that involves some combination of classism and good old-fashioned picking on (relatively) low-status nerds because it's easier and feels more natural. Then there wouldn't be much left to wonder. (Edit: NOT saying we shouldn't point out sexism in tech, but expressing skepticism at the broader cultural narrative around how software people are uniquely ignorant and sexist relative to other professions. Ask ten women who've worked somewhere besides tech for a few years for some stories of sexism, you'll hear plenty.)
- wilsynet 12y ago
  It's useful to point it out in tech because in tech, we believe that we operate with the purity of egalitarianism. But real life is more complicated and messy.
  - cubetime 12y ago
    I know far more developers that think the egalitarianism myth is wrong and silly than that buy into it unexamined (I'm not sure I know anyone in the second category personally), though I suppose I might've lucked out.
- delluminatus 12y ago
  You said yourself that you can believe that sexism is worse in tech than in other professions. That is already a problem worth discussing. Why is it worse? What can we do to correct that discrepancy? I will go so far as to say your suggestion to "focus on the problem in full generality" -- which is to say, to completely encompass an impossibly complicated issue -- is just a way of trying to pass responsibility and to avoid admitting that there is a problem. Of course, trying to resolve sexism everywhere is admirable. But to use the existence of sexism in other fields as a reason to avoid addressing it in our own is little better than rejecting its existence altogether. edit for your edit: I think there are specific reasons that sexism is more prevalent in tech, which are not necessarily related to "software people are ignorant". In our culture there appears to be a general bias against women in pretty much all STEM fields, perhaps for historical reasons. I suspect (although this is just my opinion) that this is largely responsible for any greater bias that exists in tech as well. There is a mistaken perception that women are less capable in highly rational pursuits, which affects how women in tech are viewed by their colleagues. I think this is a big reason that women have a hard time in tech.
dneronique 12y ago
I am a female developer about 6 years older than the author. I absolutely love the end of this article: > Slowly but steadily, I am learning to see my dresses and high-pitched voice not as hurdles to my success, but as symbols of the perspective I bring to the table. This conclusion is fantastic and shows a sense of confidence and maturity that I think all professionals of all genders need to project.
- femtardian 12y ago
  If the article was a male student, complaining about a 'jugfest' on his nursing degree, would it arouse the same sympathy as her 'sausagefest' epithet on a computing degree?
- gavinpunk 12y ago
  How are the examples in the article exclusive to the computer field? Pretty girls are hit on by older men in every profession. Even Margaret Thatcher had to tone down her high pitched voice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28_0gXLKLbk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28_0gXLKLbk I suppose the next headline will be "Man in dress harassed by peers. Sexism in computer industry to blame." Go ahead, mod me down. Throwaway account.
  - shokley 12y ago
    Right on brother. Nobody makes it in fortune magazine by telling everyone how polite the men were. Reminds me of: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2949530/Men-Tinder-NOT-terrible-think-Fake-profile-receives-1-000-polite-comments-no-abuse.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2949530/Men-T... Yeah, I get it. All men bow down to your new female overlords.
- strathmeyer 12y ago
  It was difficult to have any clue what she was going on about, except that she expects other people to solve her problems for her and do things for her. I wonder what gave her that idea.
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rajacombinator 12y ago
Ahhh Stanford undergrads. Whenever I'm thinking this life is too brutal I can always count on them to remind me there are people out there whose entire lives have been shrouded in naiveté and privilege. I wonder how much the media is to blame for this young woman's mindset? Did she ever consider that her boss might not be asking her opinion because she was an intern? Or just jump to I'm not getting 100% attention on a silver platter, must be sexism? It's not clear from the article.
- _random_ 12y ago
  "I’ve had middle-aged coworkers ... GChat me pickup lines" She is also kind of age-biased. Age doesn't matter, all kind of gender/legal-age/race relations are accepted by modern society.
  - rsfinn 12y ago
    Let's posit "middle-aged" means "in their 40s". She's a junior in college, so let's say 20 or so. So you're suggesting that objecting to getting pickup lines from people literally old enough to be her father is "age-biased", and not, you know, "creepy"? Hmm.
- avsbst 12y ago
  Attempting to use sarcasm as an ad hominem attack on the author doesn't add to this conversation at all. Attending Stanford doesn't change the fact that she went through a certain set of negative experiences she feels compelled to write about. Given Stanford's proximity and close interconnection to the tech scene in the United States, and it's general reputation as a forward thinking university, it should concern us deeply as members of the tech community that sexist attitudes are still being perpetuated in places we generally assume to be safe spaces. As for your three questions: 1) How is this relevant? This is a conversation about sexism in tech not an attempt to discredit the author's opinion by claiming she's been brainwashed by the media 2) Probably, although nobody here can really give an answer except her so you should ask her in the article comments 3) Sounds like she has some legitimate complaints so no I don't think this has anything to do with your implication that she is somehow fishing for attention.
buckbova 12y ago
I've worked many jobs in my life, many . . . people will ask you out everywhere you work. Go be a waitress and see how many co-workers, bosses, and customers try and pick you up. > I’ve had middle-aged coworkers (not at Facebook, another internship) literally GChat me pickup lines (that aren’t even clever) to the point I’d avoid certain portions of the office altogether
qiqing 12y ago
Having read a lot of the "are you sure she didn't misinterpret that" or "it's not like women can't apply to these jobs" comments, I'd like to help people overcome their knee-jerk reflex and really think about this instead of throwing their hands up. For those who are questioning her experience, let's consider a piece of satire about bias at Hogwarts (and mentally substituting gender or other demographic of choice for religion here): "These facts will likely surprise Hogwarts students today, especially those acquainted with the broader history of Judaism at their school... and though Spinoza’s invitation to deliver a series of lectures, in 1652, was met with protests, organizers were careful to note that it was the philosopher’s virulent anti-wizarding stance that they objected to, not his Jewish extraction. A turning point in the story of anti-Semitism at Hogwarts came in 1920, when Jewish enrollment, buoyed by excellent Wizarding Admissions Test scores, peaked at thirty per cent. Complaints began to circulate that the “character of the place” was changing. These were vague comments, but no one mistook their meaning. The conservative Board of Governors (which, for the record, did not admit a Jew until Robert Rubin joined, in 1995) exerted enormous pressure on Headmaster Phineas Nigellus Black to “do something about it,” and the Class of 1926 was the first to be subject to the notorious Jewish quotas that would stand for almost fifty years. There were no hard numbers, of course—only a directive to the admissions committee to begin placing less weight on test scores and more on certain vaguely defined categories such as “character,” “fitness,” and “spell diction.” But it was enough. Of course, the situation at Hogwarts had never been anywhere near as bad as at the universities in Eastern and Central Europe, where Jewish wizards as eminent as Freud and Einstein, unable to secure teaching appointments, were forced to use their magic in the service of formulating bizarre Muggle theories. Nor was Hogwarts ever the site of anti-Semitic violence, seen at too many of the Hungarian and Austrian wizarding schools during the tumultuous years after the First World War. There, student “demonstrations” often included the use of the so-called Jewish spells, cruel incantations that caused the peyes (side curls) to become scalding hot, the phylacteries to tighten around the wearer’s head—and, of course, the notorious “kipa spinner.” No, Hogwarts was never the setting for any bigotry as brutal as that, and if I persist in recalling the minor injustices it is for the sake of guarding against future anti-Semitism in its most subtle forms." [1] 1. http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/true-history-jewish-wizards-hogwarts-harry-potter http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/true-history-jew...
davidf18 12y ago
Many men who program computers, especially those who are very competent, are ASD (on the Autistic Spectrum), eg, perhaps some form of Aspergers. In Autism Researcher Simon Baron-Cohen's terminology they are "hyper" systemic but "hypo" empathic. Thus, they may be acting socially unaware, especially compared with women and people should keep that in mind. Also, women should consider at working and at least understanding and be able to talk about higher levels of technology that many of their male counterparts have not worked with. One woman I knew who has never worried about the issues in this article got an EE degree from a top rated university and did a lot of C++ contract work at high rates. Part of her education was being mentored by men who were very competent in programming yet older than she was. Any guy that thinks he is smarter can be "put in his place" by someone who knows technology better and can show it. Also, women should go to Meetups where they can me people in industry and learn new technologies that they may not have had in school. In the meetups that I attend in NYC, I see relatively few women and meetups are a great place to make contacts and learn new technologies.
- aaronem 12y ago
  > "hyper" systemic but "hypo" empathic A society is a system.
- listrophy 12y ago
  1. Being ASD is not a carte blanche. 2. Suggesting that "simply knowing more" is sufficient ignores the way many men will discount a woman's knowledge compared to a man's knowledge simply because she's a woman. 3. Can we not resort to putting people into their place to establish dominance hierarchies? What about synergistic differences? Those are tremendously valuable. 4. Many meetups can be frustrating or downright hostile to women. Even well intentioned organizers can have a difficult time attracting women if attendance is already primarily male. Let's not forget that women make about 70¢ per $1 that men make, so they tend to have less opportunity to spend leisure time at a meetup. This is a problem, and we can't ask women to simply try harder. They've been trying harder their whole lives. Perhaps it's time for us men to try harder for once.
dominotw 12y ago
Wow another privileged woman speaking about her "feels". I take a bus with Mexican woman whose husband beats her but she is too scared to go to law enforcement( her being an illegal immigrant and all). The contrast between two women is insane. Yet we talk everyday endlessly about the former not the latter. I am disgusted by this whole thing. Seriously WTF.
- intev 12y ago
  Just because the Mexican woman is in a worse situation compared to the Stanford grad, it doesn't make the Stanford grad's situation any less worse. If you were not allowed to eat any food once a week, and I told you "there's starving children in Africa with NO food 3 times a week" does that make you feel better about your situation? You also happen to be posting on a tech website, so that would explain why we talk about the former and not the latter. Outside silicon valley no one cares about the former but there are many organizations trying their best to help with the latter.
  - 8_hours_ago 12y ago
    In case you were wondering, that argument is known as the fallacy of relative privation: "an opponent's arguments should be dismissed or ignored, on the grounds of there existing more important problems, despite these issues being often completely unrelated to the subject at hand." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation
    - dominotw 12y ago
      I knew someone would post this. I am talking about two people who work in the same office but one is treated like a princesses and another like invisible. This whole gender gap thing is used by profiteers like "diversity consultants", media outlets like the original post for page views.
  - dominotw 12y ago
    I am talking about women from the same society,I am not comparing women living under ISIS and the Standford grad. Why twist my words?
brandonmenc 12y ago
A male developer is going to be flagged as an "imposter" if he shows up to cut code in a suit. That sucks. Unfortunately, it probably also applies to dresses.
CHY872 12y ago
One of my female friends has been through broadly similar experiences, and so sadly I'm not particularly surprised by this article. I'm glad that it's been posted, and am somewhat saddened by the defensive nature of a lot of the replies here. Yes, a few of her examples are a little weak, but I think it paints an overall picture that isn't hugely encouraging for the state of SV, and one that I have no trouble believing.
makeset 12y ago
I do sympathize because people shouldn't have to put up with discrimination for any reason, especially at work, but her message gets eroded through poorly chosen arguments. There's a difference between discrimination and assumption. If I wear scrubs while visiting a friend at a hospital because I like walking around in scrubs, people will assume that I'm medical personnel working there. If you're a woman in a dress at a company where all other women in dresses are recruiters, people will assume you're probably a recruiter, until they find out otherwise. They are not discriminating against you, it's just the prior probability. It's not okay to take this personally and lash out and call them a sausagefest. An extroverted man wearing more fashion-conscious clothing in an introverted company-shirt crowd will stand out, and might face less sympathetic reviews in interview situations. That's discrimination, and it's not okay, but it happens. Having to look the part or not when it matters is a compromise we all face. This is not a good argument for her case. And look here: > And if that wasn’t enough, my achievement was questioned by male colleagues. I’d occasionally hear, “Oh you’re a woman, you’ll get a job at Google or Facebook just fine!” Which was the most discouraging encouragement. If I did get the internship, it was because I was a woman and if I didn’t, I’d just failed to leverage my upper edge. They said it because there is truth to it -- she won't get the job because she's a woman, but she will have higher chances because she's a woman. In the very least, it will muddle the reasons behind the decision. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're in support of gender diversity awareness in hiring, you've given up the license to complain about it. Saying "Let's hire more women!" when selecting from a decidedly male-dominated pool fully implies that women at large are given higher chances solely for being women. Sad, but true. At that point I'm starting to doubt the interpretation of other examples like the older guy who called her dresses "fun." Was it a creepy guy making underhanded passes, or mere a fatherly figure lending his support for her unique choices? I personally don't doubt her judgment that it was the former, but it's hard to be convinced given the way the rest of the article reads.
davidf18 12y ago
There seems to be something wrong with this commenting system. I tried to respond to someone who responded to what I wrote and the response did not take twice. This is what I wrote: Changing others, changing men, changing culture is very difficult. Nice to talk about it but it really doesn't happen. What one can do is to change themselves and part of that is understanding that those people are ASD are more likely to be insensitive than others and that is partially a genetic phenomena. There is nothing wrong with women being more competitive than men in general and learning new technologies by going to meetups and otherwise. For example, most programmers know Java/Hadoop and far fewer really work with Scala/Spark. Learn advanced machine learning algorithms. Have a good understanding of computer architecture and computer chip fabrication. I have been to a number of meetups and I have never seen any hostility towards women. These tend to be rather technical where meritocracy is respected. In sum, those in technology are not wishful thinkers. One cannot change others, only themselves. Men are not going to change at least in the short term. I have given examples of a realistic means for dealing with the situation that I have seen women and others use.
alialkhatib 12y ago
As a PhD student here at Stanford, I find this really distressing. For what little it may be worth to anyone reading this who is(/was) thinking about coming to Stanford, I have heard professors and grad students talk about ways to be more inclusive in their actions and language. I've heard my advisor stumble over "you guys" only to stop and correct himself with "you all". I can't speak for every lab (there are numerous, each with different cultures and norms), but hopefully I speak for everyone when I say that we grad students and the professors are at least open to learning about how we can make the CS program (and the field as a whole) a safer space for everyone, if not actively working toward that goal. If nothing else, we can promote an inclusive culture in how we speak, behave, and in what behavior we (don't) tolerate. For Lea (and for countless others), I worry her perception of CS has been irreparably damaged. Hopefully that won't be the case going forward.
foxhedgehog 12y ago
One of the best TA's that I ever had, in any discipline, was a female CS instructor at Cal who was also likely a PhD candidate. My operating theory was that she not only had to be smart enough to be admitted into that program, but that she additionally had to overcome some degree of adversity stemming from gender-based perceptions (which I definitely observed in our department). The entire class was disappointed when our regular professor returned from a conference after she had been instructing for a week because she was so much better at teaching than he was.
jgalt212 12y ago
> I’ve had middle-aged coworkers (not at Facebook, another internship) literally GChat me pickup lines (that aren’t even clever) to the point I’d avoid certain portions of the office altogether; Not to be trite, but the only thing worse than being a girl who gets Gchated pick up lines, is one who doesn't. OK, now. What am I driving at? My view on a primary reason why there doesn't seem to be more progress is because the Liz Lemon and Jenna Maroney archetypes have yet to come up with a common strategy. This bit of dialogue basically sums up their differences: Jenna: Oh, I’m not worried because I have something the other actors don’t. A secret weapon. Liz: Don’t say your sexuality. Jenna: My sexuality!
- totony 12y ago
  If she feels incomfortable about it, she shouldn't avoid them. Did she tell them it makes her unconfortable? Nerds aren't all good with asserting if someone is confortable with something.
PhoenixWright 12y ago
These are getting funnier. Now back to actually trying to better myself instead of blaming "unconscious" biases for all of my problems.
jongraehl 12y ago
For a typical high-achieving man (in other words, a narcissist) to make it through a program where he's even slightly outside the social mode without a persecution complex, he'd have to possess extraordinary emotional poise. And we've seen that fine analytical minds are at least as prone to biases (system 2 reasoning is the rationalizing one, not the automatic system 1). So, this woman's reaction is not to her discredit. Almost any person would have it. What's maybe a little sad is how much play such "dear diary" reactions get. I guess people really love a good shouting match (see the many flagkilled comments). Those capable folks who enter a field out of genuine desire and with no obstacle other than a (real) feeling of social friction will stick with it and prevail. Good luck, outsiders. Anyway, ridiculous feelings of persecution (e.g., they think they're better than me with their college degrees - I'll show them all!) can be harnessed for productivity, so if you can't zen away your angst, use it.
VikingCoder 12y ago
Rush's brain: "Wow, one of my classmates made it to Facebook? Cool." Rush's brain a moment later, "Wait, TWO of my classmates made it to Facebook?!? Oh... well then I should have applied for that internship." I'm sympathetic to the view that Rush was being sexist. But could it possibly be that Rush was just adding up the numbers and realizing that his odds weren't as bad as he realized? "and I’ve been cornered by a stranger at night outside Stanford’s Gates Building when leaving office hours." This doesn't strike me as an indictment against Stanford or against Computer Science - just against men in general. "Worst of all, a 50-year-old married, male coworker at one internship would regularly make it a point in passing to comment on how “fun” my dresses looked." I wasn't there, and again, I'm sympathetic to the idea that this could have been sexism - but I again wonder if this wasn't just a compliment. As a 40-year-old married male, I wonder if I can compliment my female co-workers on how they look. And at what frequency would it become the "worst of all" sexism that female had ever encountered? "I noticed that management listened more to what my male counterparts had to say even though I was offering insightful feedback." I've seen this first-hand, and it's disgusting. I saw blatant sexism and racism in my college, as well. I am sympathetic, but some of the examples cited seem questionable to me.
jesuislelui 12y ago
I'm a CS grad at CSUEB in the Bay Area (I was also an undergrad there previously), and this "women are absent" nonsense is very much the opposite of what I see in my classes. Most of my classes are comprised of roughly 25-30 students. Of those, roughly 20+ students are Indian, and of those 20+, 15+ are females, and I assure you they're really good! Now, it may not be Stanford or Berkeley or whichever high-horse university some of you would like to use to dismiss this information, but in my experience there are women in CS, lots of them. It seems folks are just looking at the "bigger buzzfeed" schools or where they want for these "ohh.. I'm a girl in CS and I'm not recognized". Take a look outside these prestigious schools and the gender demographics will change. I'm not saying these don't exist, I'm just saying look around a little more. Now, I can't speak for female presence in IT in the professional world, but with regard to those feeling belittled or taken advantage of, women are unfortunately targeted by unsolicited/creepy advances all the time, everywhere. It's not a tech industry thing, it an unfortunate all-over-the-world problem. If when asked where one person did an internship the answer is "facebook", then yeah maybe some surprise, I guess it would be nice to intern at facebook. If the following 1,2,3 people also answer "facebook", then I too would probably think to myself "oh, I should have probably applied then". At this point, I'll just have to take Lea's word that the reaction was truly because she was a girl?!

Did she really use the word 'sausagefest'? Ouch. That noise was credibility slamming the door on the way out.

jnevill 12y ago
Yes... the rest of her argument is moot because of the use of one word. That's really all it takes to ruin her credibility and ignore what she says. Either you are incredibly stupid or incredibly sexist... my guess is both.
- woodman 12y ago
  > Either you are incredibly stupid or incredibly sexist... Yeah, and I bet he is a homophobic racist animal rapist as well! Fall in line or I might start imagining more labels!
- blkhp19 12y ago
  No, it doesn't nullify her argument at all. It does paint her in a poor picture, though, which can change the way people interpret the rest of what she says.
jxf 12y ago
That's an uncharitable thing to say. Dismissing someone's entire argument because of a single word rather than considering the point at hand not only misses the forest for the trees, but also fails a pretty basic test of being a reasonable person: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument
modfodder 12y ago
And your credibility is tied to your first and only comment on HN complaining about the use of sausagefest in an otherwise salient article.

Most of these incidents just sound like guys who were genuinely trying to be nice or funny, but because anything can be seen through the lens of sexism, this woman took the opportunity to consider herself oppressed.

alxjrvs 12y ago
I am reasonably convinced that even those trying to be nice or funny can be sexist, and in fact, can be sexist while trying to be nice or funny. I am also convinced that sexism is a societal problem, and not the hand-wringing of a few key dudes. There are plenty of things in Computer Science / engineering / etc that are trying to be nice/funny, but contribute to a strong culture of sexism.
- theVirginian 12y ago
  Possibly. As an outsider to the industry it is hard for me to understand exactly what people mean by sexism in the STEM fields. There is no cut and dry "Women cannot apply to this position." Instead it seems to be things like comments about the dress being fun which to me seem rather ambiguous about their intentions. I wouldn't consider that to be sexist, if I said that I would intend it as a compliment but I see stuff all the time about how seemingly innocent things like that are apparently sexist. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Even the recounting of guy talking about the Facebook internship seemed to me as if the guy was trying to joke about how she must be smart, so he should apply; as if he was trying to imply that it would have been a good idea/opportunity. I didn't interpret that incident as meaning that the guy thought he should get the internship over the girl, since she most certainly wasn't the only intern at Facebook over the summer.
  - lotso 12y ago
    A good starting place is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat
knowtheory 12y ago
Hopefully you can understand that intent isn't everything? Being considerate of others isn't just saying "pshht i didn't mean anything by it!" it's actually thinking about how other people might react in the circumstances they've been put in. You can call sexism a lens, but it might also help to understand the experiences others have lived (from their POV, not yours) to see why it's a lens that others are brought to employing.

danielmiessler 12y ago

30 points and on the front page, yet basically no commentary. That's a message by itself.

Arnt 12y ago
What is the message?
- kleer001 12y ago
  The message is that sexism and harrasment are still pervasive in tech. Not an original statement, but still needs to be said, over and over again, until things change.
  - Kalium 12y ago
    Going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about sexism in tech is perhaps one of the best ways I can think of to make sure it doesn't change. It paints the picture that tech is a horrible place, so women should stay away. It tells people in tech that it's OK to be sexist, because everyone already is.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- danielmiessler 12y ago
  The message I got from it was that Hacker News is tired of hearing about it, which is a bad sign indeed. Yet another message was sent by downvoting my comment, which I interpret to be because they thought I meant that nobody wants to hear about this anymore. And that WAS what I was saying, but I wasn't saying it was justified. Anyway...lots of messaging going on here.
forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
Is the message that this article doesn't present any information that hasn't been said before? What exactly are people supposed to be commenting on? Sexism seems to be a problem in this industry, along with many other industries. But I don't really know what you expect people to discuss every time an article like this gets posted to hacker news.

trhway 12y ago

are sexism and sexual harassment the same things? To me it sounded like she listed examples of both. I mean like the stranger in the night isn't exactly "sexism in tech", it is more like industry unrelated harassment bordering on assault. I'd venture to guess that such harassment/assault is even less probable from a college educated tech workers than from other demographic groups.

alxjrvs 12y ago
Sexism is pervasive. Sexual Harassment is generally goaded on by permissive environments, especially those that are largely male. The "Stranger in the Night" comment is definitely harassment, but it is not hard to see how its occurrence is relevant to the larger issue.
- trhway 12y ago
  >it is not hard to see how its occurrence is relevant to the larger issue. my point is that it is really hard to see. How thinking that somebody is less capable as a programmer (or auto mechanic, TV announcer, whatever...) relevant to actual stalking/harassment/assault.

jneen 12y ago

I have heard most of these things, and it sucks. This is hella real.

kleer001 12y ago
Yup, it makes me a teeny bit more angry every time I read an article like this. Angry and disappointed.
- hackcasual 12y ago
  I'm happy that she decided to share. It's easy to forget how real this issue can be. The shit show in the comments here when an article like this is new further demonstrates the fact that there's still more work to be done. I will say though I do like HN because it seems to pretty quickly approach reasonableness with the voting system.
tracker1 12y ago
It's not easy for anyone though... Firstly, there are some people that are just assholes. Second, men in general (not all men/women), tend to be more aggressive than women. This can be intimidating or plain off-putting at times. Excessive arrogance has always bugged me a lot. The third is that some people are socially awkward in general, which can lean towards other issues. Lastly, an all-male or all-female group will be much more crude or open about thoughts, jokes or concepts than in evenly mixed company. Groups that are very one-sided tend towards this as well. When I was younger, I worked in a few offices where I was the only man that worked there... What I overheard in those years of my life is far worse than what I've heard from any all-male or mostly-male offices I've ever worked in. With time, as the numbers tend to even out, the feel of a space that is more equally mixed (genuine assholes aside) will be more even... Personally, I prefer to work with all men day to day. I do have to interact with women in another office, and have worked with them fine. I am just less distracted without women around, and that is on me.

Jimmy 12y ago

Perhaps the people who have downvoted every comment so far would like to contribute to the conversation?

PhoenixWright 12y ago
The conversation is they're right and your sexist!

bdamm 12y ago

Well she writes like a junior because she is. But the main points she makes - subtle sexism regarding capability in the face of equivalent effort - are certainly observable and do ring true. When I see articles like this (and the issue of sexism in computing does pop up quite often) I usually agree. It is there. But what can be done? I myself have been a disgusting example of a male engineer at times. And as much as I would love to permanently erase any male/female alteration of my behavior in a professional context, the reality is I do not become asexual when I go to work. I'm still a man. What to do?

nijiko 12y ago
Be the change you want.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- bdamm 12y ago
  Well, as an example, when I'm working in a mixed team of say 2 women and 5 men, and we're in a meeting discussing technical options, I may tend to give the women more eye contact than the men. This can go two ways for the women; it can be considered leering (I try very hard not to do that, but it is very difficult) and so that is an example of harassment. But in a way I am also giving away power to the women; power that they did nothing to earn other than be pretty. One option is to stay heads down and surf ycombinator during a meeting. That way I'll not look at anyone inappropriately. That is not great for me though.
  - leif 12y ago
    You could try talking to them about this. Try "hey, I understand being in this industry can be difficult as a woman, I am not very familiar with the problem but I don't want to be part of it, and I'm concerned about how much eye contact I'm giving you during meetings. I don't want to make you uncomfortable with my eye contact or this question, but is it a problem for you?" Most likely they'll tell you they have a lot of worse things to deal with than how much eye contact you're giving them, but it'll be a learning experience and at least you'll open up a dialogue.

kleer001 12y ago

Yup, sounds like standard fare. I would have been impressed if she'd documented and reported this shitty behaviour. Then again Confrontation is difficult, no matter the context.

jneen 12y ago
As someone who has tried to document and report shitty behavior, it's important to keep in mind how risky that is. Here are a few patterns I've observed: pattern (a) MAN: does shitty thing; WOMAN: hey please stop; WOMAN's performance review: "has conflicts with MAN" pattern (b) MAN: does shitty thing; WOMAN: reports shitty thing; MANAGER: oh MAN is a nice guy, why don't you try working it out yourself pattern (c) MAN: does shitty thing; WOMAN: does nothing because she actually reports to MAN
- bluecalm 12y ago
  This happens in hierarchies regardless of genders. Anyone bullied in school or a workplace can tell you this. You would need to measure if it in fact happens more often if it's a woman being a victim which is very difficult as most of those situations are not reported by neither gender.
  - jneen 12y ago
    See, I actually know it has to do with gender because I used to have a beard. I got treated very differently back then.
    - totony 12y ago
      How are you sure that what your experienced was solely based on gender?
- mrits 12y ago
  Why would you report shitty behavior? Is that against some sort of code of conduct where you work?
- 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

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ezy 12y ago
That sounds like a weird off-hand complaint until you realize that she's not talking about once or twice -- she's talking about "making it a point" to do so. Even once or twice is perilous territory, unless it's in a particular context (she brings up the subject in conversation, for instance). That is, he was attracted to her, and wanted to let her know it. This comes up a lot when people believe that anything said with "positive intent" to women is actually positive. A lot of geeks don't get this. Women aren't stupid -- they recognize the compliment for what it is. Whenever you feel like you need to say something to a woman because your genitals throb -- think better of it. I've made this mistake -- it was subtle, not egregious (like the guy above), but I did. Nothing happened, and maybe she never noticed, but in retrospect, it's one of the those embarrassing things you do in life you get to re-live in idle moments. Don't let this happen to you. :-) It's important to understand that sexuality comes up everywhere. In our work cultures, we generally try to suppress it because even in an office with all men, it can become a distraction. With women in the workspace, it's much worse. Our society trains us to think of women as sexual objects who must always prioritize a man's perspective. Even if you are "enlightened", it's easy to slip up if you're too casual about it. When you want to offer a compliment on someone's appearance (in a nominally non-sexual context), you need to understand where it is coming from -- and do not lie to yourself. It's okay to be sexually attracted to someone in the workplace (that's humanity), but not ok to impose your desires on someone else without their consent.

isthesubeditor 12y ago

"Sausagefest"? Really? A sub-editor let this past? Wow. Standards have not just fallen, they are now used to clean one's shoes these days.

modfodder 12y ago
Another new poster whose sole comment is on the use of the word Sausagefest. Is this the start of a grassroots campaign to change the underlying negativity of the phrase to a positive? A group of sausage makers or butchers per chance?
- ad-hominem 12y ago
  Another new poster That is an ad-hominem attack - are we better than this on HN? What does his account age matter if the point is valid?
  - modfodder 12y ago
    Why does the fact she used this word matter if the rest of the article is relevant. And if the poster has a problem with the rest of the article, why focus on this word choice rather than make a counter argument? And I believe my post wasn't ad-hominem because his point isn't valid.
    - totony 12y ago
      I didn't see the post you're referring to, but, even if it is invalid, it is ad hominem to try to get your point accross by doing this. Also, the terms used in an article matter, whatever the argument. Would you appreciate an article calling an office full of women a titfest?
      - modfodder 12y ago
        If women had been in power for all of history and used that power to keep men subjugated, yes, I would appreciate calling an office full of women a titfest. History and context matter, unless you are part of the "men's movement".

blkhp19 12y ago

First of all, calling a group of guys a sausage fest is reverse sexism. If I called a classroom full of girls a barbie play-date, or a tea party, or a "fashion" class - regardless of the real reason for their gathering, people would be outraged - and rightfully so. None of those things are true and it's disrespectful to say something like that. Second, the guy who said "well I should have applied for that" might have said it because two people in a row standing right in front of him just said they had awesome internships at Facebook. Sure, he could have been a total prick and said it because she was a girl, but the fact that the 2 people he asked both said they interned at Facebook completely changes the context of the conversation. If he only asked the girl and responded that way, then that would be different - and that seems to be how she's thinking about it. She's not taking into account the actual context of the conversation. Wearing colorful, comfortable dresses sounds awesome. Yeah, I like tech T-shirts, and the latter was definitely the more common form of attire at the startup I interned at this past summer, but if someone wore a dress one day, I don't think it would be unusual for that person's manager to say "you look nice today" or "your outfit looks fun." And regarding the interview, it makes sense that you'll get "better results" by dressing like a techie. There are tons of girls who dress like techies. Wearing a T-shirt with a tech logo on it just sends the message that you love technology. It shouldn't be an important factor in an interview, but of course the way you dress sends a particular message. Wearing a dress doesn't send a negative message in any way, but a girl wearing a tech T-shirt comes across as someone who is super into tech - for the same reason a guy wearing a tech T-shirt looks more into tech than someone who wears a business suit to an interview. The T-shirt could be completely misrepresenting that person's interest in tech, but the point is it sends a particular message during an interview. I hate to conclude on such a sour note, but the girl the article is speaking about seems to think everyone is against her. It is absolutely possible that this girl experiences discrimination in the tech industry due to her gender, but the examples she talked about simply don't demonstrate that in a definitive way.

asadotzler 12y ago
The thing is, bklhp19, we don't need your analasys to tell us whether or not there are sexism and gender issues in tech and tech education. It's a fact and we know it so all you're offering here is a dismissal of this person's concern. Is that how you like to show up in the world, challenging or dismissing people around you when they take the time to communicate their experience of known problem space?

xname 12y ago

So, basically anything uncomfortable is sexism.

helllohi 12y ago

She doesn't mention other women at her internships. If she had spoken to other women and they too experienced levels of sexism then yes; but since she doesn't make the mention we don't know.

xname 12y ago

I know guys make all kinds of jokes during work, some of them are not PC. If they do / do not make those jokes with a female coworker, which one is considered as sexism?

cubetime 12y ago

I do sometimes wonder what's added by focusing on sexism in tech, in particular, and suggesting it's uniquely a problem with tech. I can believe it's worse here on average than some other comfortable professional jobs, but seriously, sexism is everywhere and if we want to reduce it, it makes more sense to me to focus on the problem itself in full generality rather than an environment it's found in. Unless you want to invoke an explanation that involves some combination of classism and good old-fashioned picking on (relatively) low-status nerds because it's easier and feels more natural. Then there wouldn't be much left to wonder. (Edit: NOT saying we shouldn't point out sexism in tech, but expressing skepticism at the broader cultural narrative around how software people are uniquely ignorant and sexist relative to other professions. Ask ten women who've worked somewhere besides tech for a few years for some stories of sexism, you'll hear plenty.)

wilsynet 12y ago
It's useful to point it out in tech because in tech, we believe that we operate with the purity of egalitarianism. But real life is more complicated and messy.
- cubetime 12y ago
  I know far more developers that think the egalitarianism myth is wrong and silly than that buy into it unexamined (I'm not sure I know anyone in the second category personally), though I suppose I might've lucked out.
delluminatus 12y ago
You said yourself that you can believe that sexism is worse in tech than in other professions. That is already a problem worth discussing. Why is it worse? What can we do to correct that discrepancy? I will go so far as to say your suggestion to "focus on the problem in full generality" -- which is to say, to completely encompass an impossibly complicated issue -- is just a way of trying to pass responsibility and to avoid admitting that there is a problem. Of course, trying to resolve sexism everywhere is admirable. But to use the existence of sexism in other fields as a reason to avoid addressing it in our own is little better than rejecting its existence altogether. edit for your edit: I think there are specific reasons that sexism is more prevalent in tech, which are not necessarily related to "software people are ignorant". In our culture there appears to be a general bias against women in pretty much all STEM fields, perhaps for historical reasons. I suspect (although this is just my opinion) that this is largely responsible for any greater bias that exists in tech as well. There is a mistaken perception that women are less capable in highly rational pursuits, which affects how women in tech are viewed by their colleagues. I think this is a big reason that women have a hard time in tech.

dneronique 12y ago

I am a female developer about 6 years older than the author. I absolutely love the end of this article: > Slowly but steadily, I am learning to see my dresses and high-pitched voice not as hurdles to my success, but as symbols of the perspective I bring to the table. This conclusion is fantastic and shows a sense of confidence and maturity that I think all professionals of all genders need to project.

femtardian 12y ago
If the article was a male student, complaining about a 'jugfest' on his nursing degree, would it arouse the same sympathy as her 'sausagefest' epithet on a computing degree?
gavinpunk 12y ago
How are the examples in the article exclusive to the computer field? Pretty girls are hit on by older men in every profession. Even Margaret Thatcher had to tone down her high pitched voice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28_0gXLKLbk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28_0gXLKLbk I suppose the next headline will be "Man in dress harassed by peers. Sexism in computer industry to blame." Go ahead, mod me down. Throwaway account.
- shokley 12y ago
  Right on brother. Nobody makes it in fortune magazine by telling everyone how polite the men were. Reminds me of: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2949530/Men-Tinder-NOT-terrible-think-Fake-profile-receives-1-000-polite-comments-no-abuse.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2949530/Men-T... Yeah, I get it. All men bow down to your new female overlords.
strathmeyer 12y ago
It was difficult to have any clue what she was going on about, except that she expects other people to solve her problems for her and do things for her. I wonder what gave her that idea.
- 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

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rajacombinator 12y ago

Ahhh Stanford undergrads. Whenever I'm thinking this life is too brutal I can always count on them to remind me there are people out there whose entire lives have been shrouded in naiveté and privilege. I wonder how much the media is to blame for this young woman's mindset? Did she ever consider that her boss might not be asking her opinion because she was an intern? Or just jump to I'm not getting 100% attention on a silver platter, must be sexism? It's not clear from the article.

_random_ 12y ago
"I’ve had middle-aged coworkers ... GChat me pickup lines" She is also kind of age-biased. Age doesn't matter, all kind of gender/legal-age/race relations are accepted by modern society.
- rsfinn 12y ago
  Let's posit "middle-aged" means "in their 40s". She's a junior in college, so let's say 20 or so. So you're suggesting that objecting to getting pickup lines from people literally old enough to be her father is "age-biased", and not, you know, "creepy"? Hmm.
avsbst 12y ago
Attempting to use sarcasm as an ad hominem attack on the author doesn't add to this conversation at all. Attending Stanford doesn't change the fact that she went through a certain set of negative experiences she feels compelled to write about. Given Stanford's proximity and close interconnection to the tech scene in the United States, and it's general reputation as a forward thinking university, it should concern us deeply as members of the tech community that sexist attitudes are still being perpetuated in places we generally assume to be safe spaces. As for your three questions: 1) How is this relevant? This is a conversation about sexism in tech not an attempt to discredit the author's opinion by claiming she's been brainwashed by the media 2) Probably, although nobody here can really give an answer except her so you should ask her in the article comments 3) Sounds like she has some legitimate complaints so no I don't think this has anything to do with your implication that she is somehow fishing for attention.

buckbova 12y ago

I've worked many jobs in my life, many . . . people will ask you out everywhere you work. Go be a waitress and see how many co-workers, bosses, and customers try and pick you up. > I’ve had middle-aged coworkers (not at Facebook, another internship) literally GChat me pickup lines (that aren’t even clever) to the point I’d avoid certain portions of the office altogether

qiqing 12y ago

Having read a lot of the "are you sure she didn't misinterpret that" or "it's not like women can't apply to these jobs" comments, I'd like to help people overcome their knee-jerk reflex and really think about this instead of throwing their hands up. For those who are questioning her experience, let's consider a piece of satire about bias at Hogwarts (and mentally substituting gender or other demographic of choice for religion here): "These facts will likely surprise Hogwarts students today, especially those acquainted with the broader history of Judaism at their school... and though Spinoza’s invitation to deliver a series of lectures, in 1652, was met with protests, organizers were careful to note that it was the philosopher’s virulent anti-wizarding stance that they objected to, not his Jewish extraction. A turning point in the story of anti-Semitism at Hogwarts came in 1920, when Jewish enrollment, buoyed by excellent Wizarding Admissions Test scores, peaked at thirty per cent. Complaints began to circulate that the “character of the place” was changing. These were vague comments, but no one mistook their meaning. The conservative Board of Governors (which, for the record, did not admit a Jew until Robert Rubin joined, in 1995) exerted enormous pressure on Headmaster Phineas Nigellus Black to “do something about it,” and the Class of 1926 was the first to be subject to the notorious Jewish quotas that would stand for almost fifty years. There were no hard numbers, of course—only a directive to the admissions committee to begin placing less weight on test scores and more on certain vaguely defined categories such as “character,” “fitness,” and “spell diction.” But it was enough. Of course, the situation at Hogwarts had never been anywhere near as bad as at the universities in Eastern and Central Europe, where Jewish wizards as eminent as Freud and Einstein, unable to secure teaching appointments, were forced to use their magic in the service of formulating bizarre Muggle theories. Nor was Hogwarts ever the site of anti-Semitic violence, seen at too many of the Hungarian and Austrian wizarding schools during the tumultuous years after the First World War. There, student “demonstrations” often included the use of the so-called Jewish spells, cruel incantations that caused the peyes (side curls) to become scalding hot, the phylacteries to tighten around the wearer’s head—and, of course, the notorious “kipa spinner.” No, Hogwarts was never the setting for any bigotry as brutal as that, and if I persist in recalling the minor injustices it is for the sake of guarding against future anti-Semitism in its most subtle forms." [1] 1. http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/true-history-jewish-wizards-hogwarts-harry-potter http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/true-history-jew...

davidf18 12y ago

Many men who program computers, especially those who are very competent, are ASD (on the Autistic Spectrum), eg, perhaps some form of Aspergers. In Autism Researcher Simon Baron-Cohen's terminology they are "hyper" systemic but "hypo" empathic. Thus, they may be acting socially unaware, especially compared with women and people should keep that in mind. Also, women should consider at working and at least understanding and be able to talk about higher levels of technology that many of their male counterparts have not worked with. One woman I knew who has never worried about the issues in this article got an EE degree from a top rated university and did a lot of C++ contract work at high rates. Part of her education was being mentored by men who were very competent in programming yet older than she was. Any guy that thinks he is smarter can be "put in his place" by someone who knows technology better and can show it. Also, women should go to Meetups where they can me people in industry and learn new technologies that they may not have had in school. In the meetups that I attend in NYC, I see relatively few women and meetups are a great place to make contacts and learn new technologies.

aaronem 12y ago
> "hyper" systemic but "hypo" empathic A society is a system.
listrophy 12y ago
1. Being ASD is not a carte blanche. 2. Suggesting that "simply knowing more" is sufficient ignores the way many men will discount a woman's knowledge compared to a man's knowledge simply because she's a woman. 3. Can we not resort to putting people into their place to establish dominance hierarchies? What about synergistic differences? Those are tremendously valuable. 4. Many meetups can be frustrating or downright hostile to women. Even well intentioned organizers can have a difficult time attracting women if attendance is already primarily male. Let's not forget that women make about 70¢ per $1 that men make, so they tend to have less opportunity to spend leisure time at a meetup. This is a problem, and we can't ask women to simply try harder. They've been trying harder their whole lives. Perhaps it's time for us men to try harder for once.

dominotw 12y ago

Wow another privileged woman speaking about her "feels". I take a bus with Mexican woman whose husband beats her but she is too scared to go to law enforcement( her being an illegal immigrant and all). The contrast between two women is insane. Yet we talk everyday endlessly about the former not the latter. I am disgusted by this whole thing. Seriously WTF.

intev 12y ago
Just because the Mexican woman is in a worse situation compared to the Stanford grad, it doesn't make the Stanford grad's situation any less worse. If you were not allowed to eat any food once a week, and I told you "there's starving children in Africa with NO food 3 times a week" does that make you feel better about your situation? You also happen to be posting on a tech website, so that would explain why we talk about the former and not the latter. Outside silicon valley no one cares about the former but there are many organizations trying their best to help with the latter.
- 8_hours_ago 12y ago
  In case you were wondering, that argument is known as the fallacy of relative privation: "an opponent's arguments should be dismissed or ignored, on the grounds of there existing more important problems, despite these issues being often completely unrelated to the subject at hand." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation
  - dominotw 12y ago
    I knew someone would post this. I am talking about two people who work in the same office but one is treated like a princesses and another like invisible. This whole gender gap thing is used by profiteers like "diversity consultants", media outlets like the original post for page views.
- dominotw 12y ago
  I am talking about women from the same society,I am not comparing women living under ISIS and the Standford grad. Why twist my words?

brandonmenc 12y ago

A male developer is going to be flagged as an "imposter" if he shows up to cut code in a suit. That sucks. Unfortunately, it probably also applies to dresses.

CHY872 12y ago

One of my female friends has been through broadly similar experiences, and so sadly I'm not particularly surprised by this article. I'm glad that it's been posted, and am somewhat saddened by the defensive nature of a lot of the replies here. Yes, a few of her examples are a little weak, but I think it paints an overall picture that isn't hugely encouraging for the state of SV, and one that I have no trouble believing.

makeset 12y ago

I do sympathize because people shouldn't have to put up with discrimination for any reason, especially at work, but her message gets eroded through poorly chosen arguments. There's a difference between discrimination and assumption. If I wear scrubs while visiting a friend at a hospital because I like walking around in scrubs, people will assume that I'm medical personnel working there. If you're a woman in a dress at a company where all other women in dresses are recruiters, people will assume you're probably a recruiter, until they find out otherwise. They are not discriminating against you, it's just the prior probability. It's not okay to take this personally and lash out and call them a sausagefest. An extroverted man wearing more fashion-conscious clothing in an introverted company-shirt crowd will stand out, and might face less sympathetic reviews in interview situations. That's discrimination, and it's not okay, but it happens. Having to look the part or not when it matters is a compromise we all face. This is not a good argument for her case. And look here: > And if that wasn’t enough, my achievement was questioned by male colleagues. I’d occasionally hear, “Oh you’re a woman, you’ll get a job at Google or Facebook just fine!” Which was the most discouraging encouragement. If I did get the internship, it was because I was a woman and if I didn’t, I’d just failed to leverage my upper edge. They said it because there is truth to it -- she won't get the job because she's a woman, but she will have higher chances because she's a woman. In the very least, it will muddle the reasons behind the decision. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're in support of gender diversity awareness in hiring, you've given up the license to complain about it. Saying "Let's hire more women!" when selecting from a decidedly male-dominated pool fully implies that women at large are given higher chances solely for being women. Sad, but true. At that point I'm starting to doubt the interpretation of other examples like the older guy who called her dresses "fun." Was it a creepy guy making underhanded passes, or mere a fatherly figure lending his support for her unique choices? I personally don't doubt her judgment that it was the former, but it's hard to be convinced given the way the rest of the article reads.

davidf18 12y ago

There seems to be something wrong with this commenting system. I tried to respond to someone who responded to what I wrote and the response did not take twice. This is what I wrote: Changing others, changing men, changing culture is very difficult. Nice to talk about it but it really doesn't happen. What one can do is to change themselves and part of that is understanding that those people are ASD are more likely to be insensitive than others and that is partially a genetic phenomena. There is nothing wrong with women being more competitive than men in general and learning new technologies by going to meetups and otherwise. For example, most programmers know Java/Hadoop and far fewer really work with Scala/Spark. Learn advanced machine learning algorithms. Have a good understanding of computer architecture and computer chip fabrication. I have been to a number of meetups and I have never seen any hostility towards women. These tend to be rather technical where meritocracy is respected. In sum, those in technology are not wishful thinkers. One cannot change others, only themselves. Men are not going to change at least in the short term. I have given examples of a realistic means for dealing with the situation that I have seen women and others use.

alialkhatib 12y ago

As a PhD student here at Stanford, I find this really distressing. For what little it may be worth to anyone reading this who is(/was) thinking about coming to Stanford, I have heard professors and grad students talk about ways to be more inclusive in their actions and language. I've heard my advisor stumble over "you guys" only to stop and correct himself with "you all". I can't speak for every lab (there are numerous, each with different cultures and norms), but hopefully I speak for everyone when I say that we grad students and the professors are at least open to learning about how we can make the CS program (and the field as a whole) a safer space for everyone, if not actively working toward that goal. If nothing else, we can promote an inclusive culture in how we speak, behave, and in what behavior we (don't) tolerate. For Lea (and for countless others), I worry her perception of CS has been irreparably damaged. Hopefully that won't be the case going forward.

foxhedgehog 12y ago

One of the best TA's that I ever had, in any discipline, was a female CS instructor at Cal who was also likely a PhD candidate. My operating theory was that she not only had to be smart enough to be admitted into that program, but that she additionally had to overcome some degree of adversity stemming from gender-based perceptions (which I definitely observed in our department). The entire class was disappointed when our regular professor returned from a conference after she had been instructing for a week because she was so much better at teaching than he was.

jgalt212 12y ago

> I’ve had middle-aged coworkers (not at Facebook, another internship) literally GChat me pickup lines (that aren’t even clever) to the point I’d avoid certain portions of the office altogether; Not to be trite, but the only thing worse than being a girl who gets Gchated pick up lines, is one who doesn't. OK, now. What am I driving at? My view on a primary reason why there doesn't seem to be more progress is because the Liz Lemon and Jenna Maroney archetypes have yet to come up with a common strategy. This bit of dialogue basically sums up their differences: Jenna: Oh, I’m not worried because I have something the other actors don’t. A secret weapon. Liz: Don’t say your sexuality. Jenna: My sexuality!

totony 12y ago
If she feels incomfortable about it, she shouldn't avoid them. Did she tell them it makes her unconfortable? Nerds aren't all good with asserting if someone is confortable with something.

PhoenixWright 12y ago

These are getting funnier. Now back to actually trying to better myself instead of blaming "unconscious" biases for all of my problems.

jongraehl 12y ago

For a typical high-achieving man (in other words, a narcissist) to make it through a program where he's even slightly outside the social mode without a persecution complex, he'd have to possess extraordinary emotional poise. And we've seen that fine analytical minds are at least as prone to biases (system 2 reasoning is the rationalizing one, not the automatic system 1). So, this woman's reaction is not to her discredit. Almost any person would have it. What's maybe a little sad is how much play such "dear diary" reactions get. I guess people really love a good shouting match (see the many flagkilled comments). Those capable folks who enter a field out of genuine desire and with no obstacle other than a (real) feeling of social friction will stick with it and prevail. Good luck, outsiders. Anyway, ridiculous feelings of persecution (e.g., they think they're better than me with their college degrees - I'll show them all!) can be harnessed for productivity, so if you can't zen away your angst, use it.

VikingCoder 12y ago

Rush's brain: "Wow, one of my classmates made it to Facebook? Cool." Rush's brain a moment later, "Wait, TWO of my classmates made it to Facebook?!? Oh... well then I should have applied for that internship." I'm sympathetic to the view that Rush was being sexist. But could it possibly be that Rush was just adding up the numbers and realizing that his odds weren't as bad as he realized? "and I’ve been cornered by a stranger at night outside Stanford’s Gates Building when leaving office hours." This doesn't strike me as an indictment against Stanford or against Computer Science - just against men in general. "Worst of all, a 50-year-old married, male coworker at one internship would regularly make it a point in passing to comment on how “fun” my dresses looked." I wasn't there, and again, I'm sympathetic to the idea that this could have been sexism - but I again wonder if this wasn't just a compliment. As a 40-year-old married male, I wonder if I can compliment my female co-workers on how they look. And at what frequency would it become the "worst of all" sexism that female had ever encountered? "I noticed that management listened more to what my male counterparts had to say even though I was offering insightful feedback." I've seen this first-hand, and it's disgusting. I saw blatant sexism and racism in my college, as well. I am sympathetic, but some of the examples cited seem questionable to me.

jesuislelui 12y ago

I'm a CS grad at CSUEB in the Bay Area (I was also an undergrad there previously), and this "women are absent" nonsense is very much the opposite of what I see in my classes. Most of my classes are comprised of roughly 25-30 students. Of those, roughly 20+ students are Indian, and of those 20+, 15+ are females, and I assure you they're really good! Now, it may not be Stanford or Berkeley or whichever high-horse university some of you would like to use to dismiss this information, but in my experience there are women in CS, lots of them. It seems folks are just looking at the "bigger buzzfeed" schools or where they want for these "ohh.. I'm a girl in CS and I'm not recognized". Take a look outside these prestigious schools and the gender demographics will change. I'm not saying these don't exist, I'm just saying look around a little more. Now, I can't speak for female presence in IT in the professional world, but with regard to those feeling belittled or taken advantage of, women are unfortunately targeted by unsolicited/creepy advances all the time, everywhere. It's not a tech industry thing, it an unfortunate all-over-the-world problem. If when asked where one person did an internship the answer is "facebook", then yeah maybe some surprise, I guess it would be nice to intern at facebook. If the following 1,2,3 people also answer "facebook", then I too would probably think to myself "oh, I should have probably applied then". At this point, I'll just have to take Lea's word that the reaction was truly because she was a girl?!