5 ms·

Human running speed of 35-40 mph may be biologically possible

51 points by jpalacios 12y ago

Silhouette 12y ago
[2010], but fascinating all the same. If you'd asked me how fast an elite sprinter could run today, I would probably have thought of running 100m in a little under 10s, but I don't think I would have connected that mentally with the idea that Usain Bolt runs almost as fast as a car on our 30mph streets, albeit very briefly.
- agumonkey 12y ago
  I'm as astonished to think that marathon runners can sustain 20 km/h for 2 hours. 20 km/h is my average speed on bike ...
arjie 12y ago
Title had me confused for a bit. The article says that it was previously thought that the amount of force a limb can apply to the ground was the limiting factor in speed. However, it turns out that the actual limiting factor is how fast the muscles can apply that force. If muscles could apply the full force in the fraction of time that feet touch the ground, then that person would achieve those speeds. Interesting result.
- ars 12y ago
  > If muscles could apply the full force in the fraction of time that feet touch the ground Or if they could touch the ground for longer. We need human mounted wings to provide some downforce :) Or more realistically an elastic belt strapped to the runner, and running on a track underneath them.
  - pwr22 12y ago
    Maybe some form of spoiler :P?
  - ajuc 12y ago
    So, we need longer feet. Or longer shoes.
    - bdg 12y ago
      More legs!
  - garganitan 12y ago
    Interestingly, you've hit upon the popular hypothesis that flight actually evolved via the wings providing downforce enabling faster/vertical running up trees.
faitswulff 12y ago
> "Despite how large the running forces can be, we found that the limbs are capable of applying much greater ground forces than those present during top-speed forward running.” Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they extrapolated this from one-legged hops, which put all of your weight on a single leg, isn't that more akin to measuring the ground force from jumping than it is to running?
- mden 12y ago
  That's my understanding as well. The title makes no sense and seems very click-baity. "Our simple projections indicate that muscle contractile speeds that would allow for maximal or near-maximal forces would permit running speeds of 35 to 40 miles per hour and conceivably faster" So essentially if human physiology worked differently than it did, we could theoretically run much faster. Not a useless result, but not really anything as exciting as they make it sound.
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  > isn't that more akin to measuring the ground force from jumping than it is to running? The point is that the limiting factor is not how much force the limb can exert, and that's what was demonstrated by the one-leg hopping.
- xivzgrev 12y ago
  Yea that was my read too. Of course you have more force on one leg - all your weight is on it and there's less forward momentum. If you could get all that force into running stance...that's like saying michael jordan has a great vertical. If a runner could apply that same vertical while running top speed, he could leap really far.
mingabunga 12y ago
Running on a treadmill (as in this experiment) is quite different from running on an all weather track as sprinters do. I wouldn't be surprised if they got quite different results if somehow they were able to measure this on a non-moving track.
- reubenmorais 12y ago
  I can't see how it'd make any difference for this experiment. They were measuring ground forces applied by the runners and how fast those forces are applied, so unless the all weather track has artificial gravity…
aaronbrethorst 12y ago
More about Usain Bolt's peak performance: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2378698/Scientists-reveal-Usain-Bolt-energetic-speeding-bullet--reach-speeds-27MPH.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2378698/Scien...
IvyMike 12y ago
I've always been curious: in an enclosed stadium on the moon, would humans run the 100 yard dash faster or slower? I think the first reaction people have is "faster, since you weigh less". But I think the answer is slower, because you would actually be near-floating and contact the ground less. I got into a fight with people on ask.metafilter when I asked this same question, so I had to let it go. But still I hope someday the Olympics are held on the moon so I can get my answer.
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  Who cares about sprinting, I can't wait for the lunar pole vault.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- jcrites 12y ago
  You would certainly accelerate much more slowly, since the upper limit of acceleration is bounded by your friction with the ground, which is bounded by your weight, i.e., your mass times gravity. What's not clear is whether you could reach a faster peak speed. I think it would be tough to reach a fast speed since your joints would need to oscillate rapidly in order to push off ground moving as fast. And each time you push off the ground you'd achieve less force, due to the friction thing. To summarize, I think I agree with you that humans will run more slowly in a low-gravity environment. An interesting parallel question is: under 1.3, 1.5, or 2x gravity, how much more quickly could you run? And what's the optimal gravity for running if it's not 1.0 Earth?
  - omegant 12y ago
    Would a 2x gravity be similar to running with a 100 pounds backpack? Then I guess it's going to be substantially slower than 1G running.
    - recursive 12y ago
      No. The runner still has the same mass, so accelerating takes the same amount of energy as 1x gravity. It's like shifting to a higher gear on your bike.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
ck2 12y ago
Wind resistance has to be a factor after 25mph, I mean it is on my electric bicycle. And holy cow, even 25mph is crazy fast, 35? If you tripped and fell at 35-40mph you could seriously injure yourself. I think I have a good question for the xkcd q&a site: how fast could Usain Bolt run on the moon (ignoring the oxygen problem). Ah I see someone beat me to the moon problem. Here's another thought, without strong gravity to help return mass to the ground, running is probably much harder.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  This analysis says Usain Bolt expends >90% of his energy on drag: http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/34/5/1227/article http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/34/5/1227/article (That is, yes, you are correct.) Answering my own question, he took 41 steps when he set the world record.
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  > If you tripped and fell at 35-40mph you could seriously injure yourself. To be fair, this is quite true at walking speeds as well. Falling is bad. I passed out from dehydration once while standing still; I ruptured my spleen in the fall and almost needed surgery to have it removed (thankfully, it healed while I was under observation).
finalight 12y ago
nah, not going to do that it hurts my knees anyway
blisterpeanuts 12y ago
More frequent steps per minute (higher frequency gait) might enable higher speeds because of more contact with the ground and less vertical motion. More contact with the ground provides more friction with which to hurl the body forward. However it also requires more energy. I've modified my running gait to about 186 steps per minute to reduce vertical motion (about 6 cm as measured by the PT at the runner's clinic). I'm still building up the muscles to maintain this gait longer than a minute or two, though. It would be interesting if a new and improved (or reconstructed Paleolithic) method of running is developed that would enable the average person to reach speeds of 35 MPH (56 KPH) or even faster. If I could run that fast, I'd get rid of my car and run to work every day. They'd have to have running lanes, maybe even issue speeding tickets to runners who race through a school zone. Road rage would take on a whole new dimension, as well. The economy would be transformed as millions of cars are discarded, gasoline consumption plummets, and people become thinner and healthier.
- Apofis 12y ago
  That's some wishful thinking right there, I love it.
  - blisterpeanuts 12y ago
    Yup I waxed a bit hyperbolic there, but wouldn't it be great?

51 points by jpalacios 12y ago

[2010], but fascinating all the same. If you'd asked me how fast an elite sprinter could run today, I would probably have thought of running 100m in a little under 10s, but I don't think I would have connected that mentally with the idea that Usain Bolt runs almost as fast as a car on our 30mph streets, albeit very briefly.

agumonkey 12y ago
I'm as astonished to think that marathon runners can sustain 20 km/h for 2 hours. 20 km/h is my average speed on bike ...

arjie 12y ago

Title had me confused for a bit. The article says that it was previously thought that the amount of force a limb can apply to the ground was the limiting factor in speed. However, it turns out that the actual limiting factor is how fast the muscles can apply that force. If muscles could apply the full force in the fraction of time that feet touch the ground, then that person would achieve those speeds. Interesting result.

ars 12y ago
> If muscles could apply the full force in the fraction of time that feet touch the ground Or if they could touch the ground for longer. We need human mounted wings to provide some downforce :) Or more realistically an elastic belt strapped to the runner, and running on a track underneath them.
- pwr22 12y ago
  Maybe some form of spoiler :P?
- ajuc 12y ago
  So, we need longer feet. Or longer shoes.
  - bdg 12y ago
    More legs!
- garganitan 12y ago
  Interestingly, you've hit upon the popular hypothesis that flight actually evolved via the wings providing downforce enabling faster/vertical running up trees.

faitswulff 12y ago

> "Despite how large the running forces can be, we found that the limbs are capable of applying much greater ground forces than those present during top-speed forward running.” Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they extrapolated this from one-legged hops, which put all of your weight on a single leg, isn't that more akin to measuring the ground force from jumping than it is to running?

mden 12y ago
That's my understanding as well. The title makes no sense and seems very click-baity. "Our simple projections indicate that muscle contractile speeds that would allow for maximal or near-maximal forces would permit running speeds of 35 to 40 miles per hour and conceivably faster" So essentially if human physiology worked differently than it did, we could theoretically run much faster. Not a useless result, but not really anything as exciting as they make it sound.
ForHackernews 12y ago
> isn't that more akin to measuring the ground force from jumping than it is to running? The point is that the limiting factor is not how much force the limb can exert, and that's what was demonstrated by the one-leg hopping.
xivzgrev 12y ago
Yea that was my read too. Of course you have more force on one leg - all your weight is on it and there's less forward momentum. If you could get all that force into running stance...that's like saying michael jordan has a great vertical. If a runner could apply that same vertical while running top speed, he could leap really far.

mingabunga 12y ago

Running on a treadmill (as in this experiment) is quite different from running on an all weather track as sprinters do. I wouldn't be surprised if they got quite different results if somehow they were able to measure this on a non-moving track.

reubenmorais 12y ago
I can't see how it'd make any difference for this experiment. They were measuring ground forces applied by the runners and how fast those forces are applied, so unless the all weather track has artificial gravity…

aaronbrethorst 12y ago

More about Usain Bolt's peak performance: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2378698/Scientists-reveal-Usain-Bolt-energetic-speeding-bullet--reach-speeds-27MPH.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2378698/Scien...

IvyMike 12y ago

I've always been curious: in an enclosed stadium on the moon, would humans run the 100 yard dash faster or slower? I think the first reaction people have is "faster, since you weigh less". But I think the answer is slower, because you would actually be near-floating and contact the ground less. I got into a fight with people on ask.metafilter when I asked this same question, so I had to let it go. But still I hope someday the Olympics are held on the moon so I can get my answer.

ForHackernews 12y ago
Who cares about sprinting, I can't wait for the lunar pole vault.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jcrites 12y ago
You would certainly accelerate much more slowly, since the upper limit of acceleration is bounded by your friction with the ground, which is bounded by your weight, i.e., your mass times gravity. What's not clear is whether you could reach a faster peak speed. I think it would be tough to reach a fast speed since your joints would need to oscillate rapidly in order to push off ground moving as fast. And each time you push off the ground you'd achieve less force, due to the friction thing. To summarize, I think I agree with you that humans will run more slowly in a low-gravity environment. An interesting parallel question is: under 1.3, 1.5, or 2x gravity, how much more quickly could you run? And what's the optimal gravity for running if it's not 1.0 Earth?
- omegant 12y ago
  Would a 2x gravity be similar to running with a 100 pounds backpack? Then I guess it's going to be substantially slower than 1G running.
  - recursive 12y ago
    No. The runner still has the same mass, so accelerating takes the same amount of energy as 1x gravity. It's like shifting to a higher gear on your bike.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

ck2 12y ago

Wind resistance has to be a factor after 25mph, I mean it is on my electric bicycle. And holy cow, even 25mph is crazy fast, 35? If you tripped and fell at 35-40mph you could seriously injure yourself. I think I have a good question for the xkcd q&a site: how fast could Usain Bolt run on the moon (ignoring the oxygen problem). Ah I see someone beat me to the moon problem. Here's another thought, without strong gravity to help return mass to the ground, running is probably much harder.

maxerickson 12y ago
This analysis says Usain Bolt expends >90% of his energy on drag: http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/34/5/1227/article http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/34/5/1227/article (That is, yes, you are correct.) Answering my own question, he took 41 steps when he set the world record.
thaumasiotes 12y ago
> If you tripped and fell at 35-40mph you could seriously injure yourself. To be fair, this is quite true at walking speeds as well. Falling is bad. I passed out from dehydration once while standing still; I ruptured my spleen in the fall and almost needed surgery to have it removed (thankfully, it healed while I was under observation).

finalight 12y ago

nah, not going to do that it hurts my knees anyway

blisterpeanuts 12y ago

More frequent steps per minute (higher frequency gait) might enable higher speeds because of more contact with the ground and less vertical motion. More contact with the ground provides more friction with which to hurl the body forward. However it also requires more energy. I've modified my running gait to about 186 steps per minute to reduce vertical motion (about 6 cm as measured by the PT at the runner's clinic). I'm still building up the muscles to maintain this gait longer than a minute or two, though. It would be interesting if a new and improved (or reconstructed Paleolithic) method of running is developed that would enable the average person to reach speeds of 35 MPH (56 KPH) or even faster. If I could run that fast, I'd get rid of my car and run to work every day. They'd have to have running lanes, maybe even issue speeding tickets to runners who race through a school zone. Road rage would take on a whole new dimension, as well. The economy would be transformed as millions of cars are discarded, gasoline consumption plummets, and people become thinner and healthier.

Apofis 12y ago
That's some wishful thinking right there, I love it.
- blisterpeanuts 12y ago
  Yup I waxed a bit hyperbolic there, but wouldn't it be great?