6 ms·

Obama likely to expand a foreign-student pipeline the high-tech industry loves

45 points by sargegood 12y ago

hackishword 12y ago
The U.S is in a stalemate, but it's likely this will be pushed through from the very top. Expect lawsuits and counter-lawsuits.
bpodgursky 12y ago
But will it be any easier for them to get permanently residency after? There's no point in doubling the number of people going through college and working on OPT if there's a hard cap on the number which can convert those to H-1Bs or (eventually) into green cards.
djb_hackernews 12y ago
My hunch is this is what 'immigration reform' is really all about behind closed doors, expanding foreign worker visas for "high tech" professions. It appears that is the whole basis behind Zuckerbergs fwd.us campaign. If you are a tech company you are foolish to not take advantage of the OPT program. Unfortunately it has a negative feedback loop on actually getting enough qualified and trained citizens in to these positions. It basically drives up the cost of such an education displacing citizens from the classroom. However, from the tech industry point of view it's a positive feedback loop. One little anecdote on something I thought was pretty telling and a bit funny was when I recently heard an interview with Joe Kennedy where a member of the business community asked him about his thoughts on immigration reform. He gave a pretty canned response about hard working people, family ties, deserving a chance etc. Before he could finish the person asking the question chimed in '...and what about H1Bs?" and it was as if somebody snapped their fingers and Joe Kennedy stood up straight, changed to a more serious tone and replied very quickly with 'Oh yes, we MUST expand the H1B program'.
leoc 12y ago
That's a juicy bit of politics: give the tech industry its guest workers and bail out the universities by shovelling more fuel onto the college bonfire, both at the same time.
cryoshon 12y ago
If Obama's drive for immigration reform uses the logic of "STEM SHORTAGE!!!" as a basis for expanding OPT, it means that hyperbole has won, and we here at HN will suffer lower wages and a more competitive job market as a result. I'm not actually sure that this is what the rhetoric is going to look like, but the rest of my comment assumes that it will look that way as it pertains to the expansion of OPT. There is no STEM shortage; tons and tons of STEM workers work outside their field because they can't get a (typically very competitive) job in their field. If there were a STEM shortage, STEM wages would be skyrocketing, which they are not. Many people with PhDs in the sciences are underemployed and underpaid. More STEM workers means lower pressure for wages to rise, thus saving money for companies in addition to allowing them to be more picky about who they hire. Increasing the pool of STEM workers is an easy way to please the tech companies (who appear to be coming into their own as political juggernauts) and seeming to make progress on "immigration reform" while circumspectly fucking over the employees of the most advanced sector of the economy in the name of progress.
- LLWM 12y ago
  It's a bit sad that you see competition on a global scale as "being fucked over". If someone else can do the same job just as well as you, you think employers should be forced to hire you instead just because you happened to be born in the right country? That's just selfishness that harms everyone else.
  - cryoshon 12y ago
    The free market favors the wealth of corporations at the detriment of individual people. The tech companies would absolutely love it if they could get away with paying their workers as little as the developing countries do; decreasing wages results in increased profits, which are the only thing that matter to them. I don't see a reason why we have to abide by their greed when we have so much to lose and nothing to gain.
    - NhanH 12y ago
      Your point is well taken, but that doesn't seems to be what the GP was saying. You're essentially advocating to favors one set of people over another set of people. Which the line between two sets being drawn by luck.
phkahler 12y ago
Because US students under piles of debt need more job competition. Not.
- cryoshon 12y ago
  You're right, but I doubt this is even part of the decision making process. It's unfortunate, but it looks as though the US government is eagerly trashing the future of the citizenry for the sake of the wills of their political donors.
piratebroadcast 12y ago
Fuck.
vj44 12y ago
48 month OPT/STEM extension will be huge for international students here - great move! Since OPT has few limitations and allows internationals to become self-employed, hopefully more international students will end up on the entrepreneurial path. And for those in "regular employment", more chances to apply for H1B and more time to figure out other, more permanent options (if needed). Lastly, hopefully, more smart graduates will decide to stay in this country and contribute to the economy & innovation, instead of contributing somewhere else. Win-win-win situation. Looking forward to the update tonight.
thisisdallas 12y ago
So who exactly is this helping? Ok, I know it helps out foreign students, but I am asking strictly from an American perspective. First and foremost, the governments job is to serve the American people. How does this specific action of Obama's immigration proposal help the American people as a whole? It's a 100% possibility that I have this wrong but I see two groups who this helps. The first group is foreigners who live in the US and the second group is big businesses who can most likely hire lower wage workers. Don't get me wrong, I am all for improving the STEM sectors in the US but I just feel like it might be a little more useful to invest in our own schools and our own workers instead of invest in foreigners living in the US. Can someone explain what I am missing or what I don't understand?
- sidko 12y ago
  Without foreign born workers, half of Silicon Valley wouldn't have existed. Is that a good enough reason?
  - jquery 12y ago
    That's not a reason for starting a new program. If anything, the thriving success of Silicon Valley should be a strong signal for our government to leave it alone. There's no evidence this program will do anything but displace American workers.
  - talmand 12y ago
    Well, I feel it is not. The reasons and successes of the past does not necessarily guarantee success by following the same pattern today. Saying something was good before doesn't provide a free pass from questions on the validity of repeating policies of the past. Not that I'm stating an opinion on the matter one way or another, but I would say the question is valid and your answer comes across as dismissive.
  - dpweb 12y ago
    No. The important question is not how many jobs there are, but how many - and at what price - and how does that price translate into a standard of living in the country where you live. To protect US citizens there are laws in place. That however can be chipped away piece by piece. If tech companies had their way that would end. There is a real concern about the (at least perceived) decline in the US standard of living for low/middle income folks, that is not necessarily anti-immigrant. You can't deny, immigrants built the country. However, America is going to have to deal with this problem of preserving the very ability of its citizens to be upwardly mobile. I'm not sure how much of the fear is real, but its out there.
jfaucett 12y ago
As a US citizen, this is awesome. If I understand this correctly it means students from anywhere can apply for jobs while studying in the US and continue working in the US after graduation. This just means better products, better ideas, and more innovation you know those common things that spawn from a more competitive marketplace. I just wish other countries would take up the same initiative, for instance in Germany you still have to select german and eu citizens over foreign borns. Does anyone know of other countries where its very easy to move and start working as a foreigner?
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Funny, isn't it, how all the other countries don't want those better products, better ideas, and more innovation?
irratable 12y ago
The tech companies who lately focus on "diversity" should publish the number of 20 - 40 old workers they have, versus 40 - 60 year old. There is no need for tech companies to mine youthful, foreign, easily exploited labor pools ("pipelines") when plenty of well trained, well qualified, and seasoned professionals exist that they refuse to hire.
deleted 12y ago
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deleted 12y ago
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JamesBarney 12y ago
I think it is obvious and we can all agree that this decision would help foreign students, and American tech corporations. We can probably also agree this decisions is similar to globalization in that it causes an increase in global utility. But given that policy is usually measured against what utility it provides for it's current citizens. One big open question in economics is will this lead to an increase in the utility of current Americans. I think this is the interesting question. Does the increase in talent from around the world spill over enough to offset the reduction in wages from the increase in labor supply?
dragonwriter 12y ago
This is horrendously bad journalism. It is a "news" article making claims about likely future events that cites only "those closely involved in the immigration debate" -- not, particularly, anyone who is, even anyone anonymously attributed in a way which suggests that they are, in any position to know what the President is actually planning to do.
newaccountfool 12y ago
Would the world not be a better place if there was no borders at all? That people from all over the world could work wherever they wanted to, irrespective of where they were born?

45 points by sargegood 12y ago

The U.S is in a stalemate, but it's likely this will be pushed through from the very top. Expect lawsuits and counter-lawsuits.

bpodgursky 12y ago

But will it be any easier for them to get permanently residency after? There's no point in doubling the number of people going through college and working on OPT if there's a hard cap on the number which can convert those to H-1Bs or (eventually) into green cards.

djb_hackernews 12y ago

My hunch is this is what 'immigration reform' is really all about behind closed doors, expanding foreign worker visas for "high tech" professions. It appears that is the whole basis behind Zuckerbergs fwd.us campaign. If you are a tech company you are foolish to not take advantage of the OPT program. Unfortunately it has a negative feedback loop on actually getting enough qualified and trained citizens in to these positions. It basically drives up the cost of such an education displacing citizens from the classroom. However, from the tech industry point of view it's a positive feedback loop. One little anecdote on something I thought was pretty telling and a bit funny was when I recently heard an interview with Joe Kennedy where a member of the business community asked him about his thoughts on immigration reform. He gave a pretty canned response about hard working people, family ties, deserving a chance etc. Before he could finish the person asking the question chimed in '...and what about H1Bs?" and it was as if somebody snapped their fingers and Joe Kennedy stood up straight, changed to a more serious tone and replied very quickly with 'Oh yes, we MUST expand the H1B program'.

leoc 12y ago

That's a juicy bit of politics: give the tech industry its guest workers and bail out the universities by shovelling more fuel onto the college bonfire, both at the same time.

cryoshon 12y ago

If Obama's drive for immigration reform uses the logic of "STEM SHORTAGE!!!" as a basis for expanding OPT, it means that hyperbole has won, and we here at HN will suffer lower wages and a more competitive job market as a result. I'm not actually sure that this is what the rhetoric is going to look like, but the rest of my comment assumes that it will look that way as it pertains to the expansion of OPT. There is no STEM shortage; tons and tons of STEM workers work outside their field because they can't get a (typically very competitive) job in their field. If there were a STEM shortage, STEM wages would be skyrocketing, which they are not. Many people with PhDs in the sciences are underemployed and underpaid. More STEM workers means lower pressure for wages to rise, thus saving money for companies in addition to allowing them to be more picky about who they hire. Increasing the pool of STEM workers is an easy way to please the tech companies (who appear to be coming into their own as political juggernauts) and seeming to make progress on "immigration reform" while circumspectly fucking over the employees of the most advanced sector of the economy in the name of progress.

LLWM 12y ago
It's a bit sad that you see competition on a global scale as "being fucked over". If someone else can do the same job just as well as you, you think employers should be forced to hire you instead just because you happened to be born in the right country? That's just selfishness that harms everyone else.
- cryoshon 12y ago
  The free market favors the wealth of corporations at the detriment of individual people. The tech companies would absolutely love it if they could get away with paying their workers as little as the developing countries do; decreasing wages results in increased profits, which are the only thing that matter to them. I don't see a reason why we have to abide by their greed when we have so much to lose and nothing to gain.
  - NhanH 12y ago
    Your point is well taken, but that doesn't seems to be what the GP was saying. You're essentially advocating to favors one set of people over another set of people. Which the line between two sets being drawn by luck.

phkahler 12y ago

Because US students under piles of debt need more job competition. Not.

cryoshon 12y ago
You're right, but I doubt this is even part of the decision making process. It's unfortunate, but it looks as though the US government is eagerly trashing the future of the citizenry for the sake of the wills of their political donors.

piratebroadcast 12y ago

Fuck.

vj44 12y ago

48 month OPT/STEM extension will be huge for international students here - great move! Since OPT has few limitations and allows internationals to become self-employed, hopefully more international students will end up on the entrepreneurial path. And for those in "regular employment", more chances to apply for H1B and more time to figure out other, more permanent options (if needed). Lastly, hopefully, more smart graduates will decide to stay in this country and contribute to the economy & innovation, instead of contributing somewhere else. Win-win-win situation. Looking forward to the update tonight.

thisisdallas 12y ago

So who exactly is this helping? Ok, I know it helps out foreign students, but I am asking strictly from an American perspective. First and foremost, the governments job is to serve the American people. How does this specific action of Obama's immigration proposal help the American people as a whole? It's a 100% possibility that I have this wrong but I see two groups who this helps. The first group is foreigners who live in the US and the second group is big businesses who can most likely hire lower wage workers. Don't get me wrong, I am all for improving the STEM sectors in the US but I just feel like it might be a little more useful to invest in our own schools and our own workers instead of invest in foreigners living in the US. Can someone explain what I am missing or what I don't understand?

sidko 12y ago
Without foreign born workers, half of Silicon Valley wouldn't have existed. Is that a good enough reason?
- jquery 12y ago
  That's not a reason for starting a new program. If anything, the thriving success of Silicon Valley should be a strong signal for our government to leave it alone. There's no evidence this program will do anything but displace American workers.
- talmand 12y ago
  Well, I feel it is not. The reasons and successes of the past does not necessarily guarantee success by following the same pattern today. Saying something was good before doesn't provide a free pass from questions on the validity of repeating policies of the past. Not that I'm stating an opinion on the matter one way or another, but I would say the question is valid and your answer comes across as dismissive.
- dpweb 12y ago
  No. The important question is not how many jobs there are, but how many - and at what price - and how does that price translate into a standard of living in the country where you live. To protect US citizens there are laws in place. That however can be chipped away piece by piece. If tech companies had their way that would end. There is a real concern about the (at least perceived) decline in the US standard of living for low/middle income folks, that is not necessarily anti-immigrant. You can't deny, immigrants built the country. However, America is going to have to deal with this problem of preserving the very ability of its citizens to be upwardly mobile. I'm not sure how much of the fear is real, but its out there.

jfaucett 12y ago

As a US citizen, this is awesome. If I understand this correctly it means students from anywhere can apply for jobs while studying in the US and continue working in the US after graduation. This just means better products, better ideas, and more innovation you know those common things that spawn from a more competitive marketplace. I just wish other countries would take up the same initiative, for instance in Germany you still have to select german and eu citizens over foreign borns. Does anyone know of other countries where its very easy to move and start working as a foreigner?

waterlesscloud 12y ago
Funny, isn't it, how all the other countries don't want those better products, better ideas, and more innovation?

irratable 12y ago

The tech companies who lately focus on "diversity" should publish the number of 20 - 40 old workers they have, versus 40 - 60 year old. There is no need for tech companies to mine youthful, foreign, easily exploited labor pools ("pipelines") when plenty of well trained, well qualified, and seasoned professionals exist that they refuse to hire.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

JamesBarney 12y ago

I think it is obvious and we can all agree that this decision would help foreign students, and American tech corporations. We can probably also agree this decisions is similar to globalization in that it causes an increase in global utility. But given that policy is usually measured against what utility it provides for it's current citizens. One big open question in economics is will this lead to an increase in the utility of current Americans. I think this is the interesting question. Does the increase in talent from around the world spill over enough to offset the reduction in wages from the increase in labor supply?

dragonwriter 12y ago

This is horrendously bad journalism. It is a "news" article making claims about likely future events that cites only "those closely involved in the immigration debate" -- not, particularly, anyone who is, even anyone anonymously attributed in a way which suggests that they are, in any position to know what the President is actually planning to do.

newaccountfool 12y ago

Would the world not be a better place if there was no borders at all? That people from all over the world could work wherever they wanted to, irrespective of where they were born?