7 ms·

I couldn't disagree more! I know great, long time and successful web developers who have never studied maths and CS! I think this really depends on your goals,

by RosieA 12y ago

I couldn't disagree more! I know great, long time and successful web developers who have never studied maths and CS! I think this really depends on your goals, and the complexity of what you hope to be building. If you want to be at the top of the software development field you may be correct, but if you want to be a really strong web developer working at startups, building your own light weight apps and products, or freelancing as a digital nomad and building portfolios and private e-commerce stores? You don't need any of that. I think there are a lot of self taught and bootcamp taught developers who would disagree with you, and while you could argue they are all "sub par", you and I both know it takes a lot of people trying to find a few people who are genuinely talented. That goes for any skill! That's what makes YOU stand apart! But that doesn't make them or their own pursuits any less valid.

king_magic 12y ago
I know great, long time and successful bridge engineers who have never studied math and physics. I think this really depends on your goals, and the complexity of what you hope to be building. If you want to be at the top of the civil engineering field you may be correct, but if you want to be a really strong bridge developer working at construction startups, building your own light weight bridges and other buildings, or freelancing as an engineering nomad and building small private bridges? You don't need any of that. See how ridiculous that sounds when you take another complex field and substitute it in? It should sound just as ridiculous for software development.
- UUMMUU 12y ago
  Well said King. "Well, I freelanced as a cardiologist on some local homeless people and I watch a TON... A TON of House, so I feel I'm ready to break into being a surgeon"
  - RosieA 12y ago
    You just described a dream I had 2 weeks ago... I need to stop watching House. :-p
- RosieA 12y ago
  Hahaha, I see your point. But casually designing something that endangers people's lives really isn't much of a comparison. yes, you can absolutely argue that developing the next piece of medical software for defibrillators is of equal importance, but if I'm sticking to coding front-ends of ecommerce shops and happy being great at that and staying on top of it as it grows... I'm not sure I see the point...?
  - king_magic 12y ago
    My point is this - what happens when some kid with 6 weeks experience leaves gaping security vulnerabilities in your ecommerce shop (yes, even with front-end code alone) that results in financial damage to your customers?
    - RosieA 12y ago
      If we're going for worldly examples to coding dangers: what happens when you're mechanic misses a screw when replacing your brake pads? Firstly, if your a biz doing transactions, you better damn well be insured, just like your car, just like your health. Secondly, your mechanic might be a junior, but little mistakes get left by the most experienced of people as well. Especially on things they think beneath them or simple. I hold no doubts that you and I have both at some point made a simple but critical mistake on the most "simple" part of a project. Its human nature. 6 weeks is a bit of an extreme example for someone to trust the building of a transaction site worth hacking, but even so I'm not sure that type of risk is something anyone can argue as a problem with bootcamps. What if I teach myself for a few weeks and want to start getting jobs and trying stuff out? Same issue, and some of the best developers I know in the world are self taught.
      - king_magic 12y ago
        You're comparing really really really small apples to really really really big apples. Your mechanic's mistake might result in a few people being hurt (a bad thing, of course). It's not going to result in serious damage to hundreds of thousands of people's financial lives. It's not going to result in massive privacy violations. Or sink a multibillion dollar project. I also think you might be overestimating the benefits of "being insured" - these types of problems can destroy companies. Is one inexperienced coder likely to cause something like that? Maybe not - but an army of them? Much more likely. I'm not saying people don't make mistakes. But I am saying these types of courses cannot possibility teach you enough to truly know what you're doing, and I as a hiring manager would not consider hiring someone with no other experience than your organization's 3 month course and a couple of side projects without the benefit another 2-3 years professional experience on top of that.

by RosieA 12y ago

king_magic 12y ago

I know great, long time and successful bridge engineers who have never studied math and physics. I think this really depends on your goals, and the complexity of what you hope to be building. If you want to be at the top of the civil engineering field you may be correct, but if you want to be a really strong bridge developer working at construction startups, building your own light weight bridges and other buildings, or freelancing as an engineering nomad and building small private bridges? You don't need any of that. See how ridiculous that sounds when you take another complex field and substitute it in? It should sound just as ridiculous for software development.

UUMMUU 12y ago
Well said King. "Well, I freelanced as a cardiologist on some local homeless people and I watch a TON... A TON of House, so I feel I'm ready to break into being a surgeon"
- RosieA 12y ago
  You just described a dream I had 2 weeks ago... I need to stop watching House. :-p
RosieA 12y ago
Hahaha, I see your point. But casually designing something that endangers people's lives really isn't much of a comparison. yes, you can absolutely argue that developing the next piece of medical software for defibrillators is of equal importance, but if I'm sticking to coding front-ends of ecommerce shops and happy being great at that and staying on top of it as it grows... I'm not sure I see the point...?
- king_magic 12y ago
  My point is this - what happens when some kid with 6 weeks experience leaves gaping security vulnerabilities in your ecommerce shop (yes, even with front-end code alone) that results in financial damage to your customers?
  - RosieA 12y ago
    If we're going for worldly examples to coding dangers: what happens when you're mechanic misses a screw when replacing your brake pads? Firstly, if your a biz doing transactions, you better damn well be insured, just like your car, just like your health. Secondly, your mechanic might be a junior, but little mistakes get left by the most experienced of people as well. Especially on things they think beneath them or simple. I hold no doubts that you and I have both at some point made a simple but critical mistake on the most "simple" part of a project. Its human nature. 6 weeks is a bit of an extreme example for someone to trust the building of a transaction site worth hacking, but even so I'm not sure that type of risk is something anyone can argue as a problem with bootcamps. What if I teach myself for a few weeks and want to start getting jobs and trying stuff out? Same issue, and some of the best developers I know in the world are self taught.
    - king_magic 12y ago
      You're comparing really really really small apples to really really really big apples. Your mechanic's mistake might result in a few people being hurt (a bad thing, of course). It's not going to result in serious damage to hundreds of thousands of people's financial lives. It's not going to result in massive privacy violations. Or sink a multibillion dollar project. I also think you might be overestimating the benefits of "being insured" - these types of problems can destroy companies. Is one inexperienced coder likely to cause something like that? Maybe not - but an army of them? Much more likely. I'm not saying people don't make mistakes. But I am saying these types of courses cannot possibility teach you enough to truly know what you're doing, and I as a hiring manager would not consider hiring someone with no other experience than your organization's 3 month course and a couple of side projects without the benefit another 2-3 years professional experience on top of that.