7 ms·

Setting the Record Straight on Tor

92 points by _mayo 12y ago

clubhi 12y ago
Today we should be thankful that our ruler has a good policy on Tor. Should they change their mind we could do nothing about it.
- mindslight 12y ago
  The only way to change this is to make it so that enough people are using (mutually-indistinguishable) encrypted protocols, that blocking such protocols would cripple the ISP's business.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- sp332 12y ago
  There haven't been any recordings. There was one supposed chat transcript posted to /r/darknetmarkets.
  - ufmace 12y ago
    Supposedly posted to /r/darknetmarkets. I haven't seen any links to actual posts yet. I did do a quick search of the sub for comcast, and found nothing. I don't see why the darknetmarkets mods would delete it, and the only other explanation is that it's entirely made up.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - sp332 12y ago
      http://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/2g2e44/is_comcast_legally_allowed_to_do_this/ http://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/2g2e44/is_co...
      - ufmace 12y ago
        Thanks. Guess it is there after all, and either reddit search is lame, or I'm lazy. Possibly both. ETA: Just checked it again, noticed that the OP of that thread deleted his account. Could be he wanted anonymity, or could be that he made it all up. Hmm...
- pyre 12y ago
  They say: > anecdotal chat room evidence You say: > you record our reps [...] those recordings I'm curious which recordings that you listened to, because it sounds like they don't know about them.
noonespecial 12y ago
Comcast likely cares very much if you run a Tor exit. They don't care at all (and probably can't even tell) if you just use the browser bundle. Someone was likely threatened with disconnection for the former. This is probably the source of the confusion.
- opendais 12y ago
  Eh? https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2011-June/020657.html https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2011-June/02... http://www.dailydot.com/politics/six-steps-nsa-attack-tor/ http://www.dailydot.com/politics/six-steps-nsa-attack-tor/ Yes they can tell if you use TOR. TOR is like a VPN, it can be detected but it doesn't tell the ISP what you are doing while you use it.
  - Monkeyget 12y ago
    They don't know what's going on if you are a user or an intermediate node. If you are an exit node they see all the traffic in clear.
    - opendais 12y ago
      Sorry, I thought the context was clear. I was talking about an end user as described in the OP. Yes, if its an exit node that is the case.
opendais 12y ago
> Comcast doesn’t monitor our customer’s browser software, web surfing or online history. I'd take this as evidence they monitor every connection that isn't over http ... which happens to include VPNs and Tor. Otherwise, they would have just said "We do not monitor your internet connection except to gather aggregate statistics for billing purposes".
- imacomputer2 12y ago
  "Comcast doesn’t monitor our customer’s browser software, web surfing or online history." That would imply that they don't even have a log of what requests are passing through their system. I find that extremely hard to believe.
  - AnthonyMouse 12y ago
    > That would imply that they don't even have a log of what requests are passing through their system. I find that extremely hard to believe. They damn well better not be.
    - opendais 12y ago
      "Comcast did not respond to our inquiries but has mentioned a 180 day retention policy for IP-addresses in BitTorrent-related court documents. On some occasions cases have been dismissed because logs were no longer available, meaning that alleged infringers could not be identified. The 180 day policy is also mentioned in the Comcast Law Enforcement Handbook that leaked in 2007." https://torrentfreak.com/how-long-does-your-isp-store-ip-address-logs-120629/ https://torrentfreak.com/how-long-does-your-isp-store-ip-add... https://blog.ryankearney.com/2013/01/comcast-caught-intercepting-and-altering-your-web-traffic/ https://blog.ryankearney.com/2013/01/comcast-caught-intercep... They are clearly logging some things. I'm mostly amused people want to downvote my comment and pretend it isn't happening.
      - AnthonyMouse 12y ago
        > Comcast did not respond to our inquiries but has mentioned a 180 day retention policy for IP-addresses in BitTorrent-related court documents. That sounds like they keep the DHCP logs for that long, i.e. which subscriber's router was assigned a particular IP address at a particular time. That's a far cry from logging actual traffic.
polarix 12y ago
It's a very good sign that Comcast is posting this kind of correction. It indicates that they perceive a broad social consensus that supporting internet anonymity is a crucial responsibility of an ISP, and lends credence to the ongoing importance of net neutrality. It also, as a secondary effect, might incline us to look more favorably on Comcast's arguments regarding backbone capacity negotiations.
- opendais 12y ago
  They didn't actually say they didn't monitor Tor tho. :/ That is why I'm kinda amused by the positive posts. They said they don't monitor people's browsers and http connections. TOR wouldn't look like that at all to them. Its a lie of omission. They clearly monitor Torrents, etc.
  - polarix 12y ago
    Even if the details weren't entirely consistent, the fact that they made any sort of statement at all is cause for optimism.
chippy 12y ago
Comcast seems to get negative press on reddit - at least as much as Netflix has positive. The site must be very easy for marketeers to game.
- revelation 12y ago
  Or Comcast just is that terrible. I'm not sure people are faking these 30 minutes long captures of a sales person repeatedly asking you to upgrade when you are calling to cancel.
- grecy 12y ago
  The marketing hype for Netflix on Reddit is astounding. I've stopped reading many movie related subs because of it.
- opendais 12y ago
  Comcast is really that terrible. And yes, that is why things like http://www.reddit.com/r/hailcorporate http://www.reddit.com/r/hailcorporate exist.
- nmjohn 12y ago
  I normally would take a cynical approach and agree that gaming reddit is that easy. But when my fairly conservative parents hate a company enough to desire government regulation against them... That company truly must be that horrible.
- eli 12y ago
  I don't think there are any shadowy marketing figures pulling strings.
- Buge 12y ago
  I don't think it's marketers. One person makes a negative post about it and gets to the front page so other people think "I know, I'll also make a negative post and get to the front page and get a ton of karma." And everyone upvotes people who confirm their own opinions. Now because of the reputation, anyone who is going to talk to Comcast will record the call, just in case. And the people who do have the call go bad will quick post it to reddit to get popular.
Gregordinary 12y ago
"Customers are free to use their Xfinity Internet service to visit any website, use any app, and so forth." Any app, but not on any device as I found out when I tried to activate HBO GO on a Roku. Apparently if Comcast is your ISP, you cannot use HBO GO on your Roku (or PS3 for that matter). EDIT: You can see what devices are supported here: http://www.hbogo.com/activate/ http://www.hbogo.com/activate/
- MBCook 12y ago
  Wow, I'd never seen that. What an odd restriction.
  - cmiller1 12y ago
    Probably a restriction imposed by HBO because they have been so terrified of loosing their content into non-traditional outlets.
    - getsaf 12y ago
      Definitely not this. HBO has written an app specifically for the Roku. As far as I can tell, Comcast is the only provider who disallows access to the Roku version of the app. I can use the HBO Android app with Comcast just fine and push to a Chromecast, but not the Roku. It's a ridiculous situation, Comcast is intentionally blocking Roku while HBO is embracing it.
      - cmiller1 12y ago
        Ahh, I stand corrected then.
- chrisBob 12y ago
  Sort of. Its important to note that there is a difference between what they restrict in the way of internet traffic, and what they sponsor in terms of allowing access to specific content over the internet. The services that you log into via your Comcast account (I use HBO Go, HGTV, NBC Live Extra...) are provided by an agreement between the content provider and the carrier. They aren't stopping you from using HBO Go on a Roku with their internet service, and your friend with FiOS can hook his Roku up and watch shows at your house over your Xfinity connection.
eli 12y ago
It's a little scary how quickly an unsourced and highly questionable story can spread when it feeds a popular narrative (in this case that Comcast is evil).
- slg 12y ago
  "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~ Mark Twain, Winston Churchill, Jonathan Swift, or some other person who said things good. Whoever said it, they said it before the dawn of the internet. What was once a figurative embellishment is now the literal truth. This story was almost everywhere on social media before any of the high level people at Comcast had the chance to put their shoes on and show up at work on Monday morning to comment on it.
  - jlivingood 12y ago
    Great quote!
- hawleyal 12y ago
  It's a little scary how a denial by the company can easily dissuade a dissenting opinion.
dang 12y ago
The earlier thread on this, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8318652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8318652, was (appropriately) flagged by users. But it did have a judicious top comment.
bowlofpetunias 12y ago
Whatever may be wrong with Comcast (connectivity-wise I'm soooo glad I don't live in the US), this is absolutely exemplary damage control PR. Clear, accessible, no weasel words, no lawyer-speak, to the point and with a human touch to round it of.
- AdmiralAsshat 12y ago
  Well, they addressed the content of the allegations, but not the source, other than saying that the chat transcript was "inaccurate". In what way, we don't know. Was it completely fabricated? Was the Comcast representative misinformed? Have they backtracked on their policy? The fact that they don't address it at all suggests to me that they haven't drafted a damage-controlled explanation yet.
- hawleyal 12y ago
  They said something similar about the non-compliant service rep who would not cancel service. They are skilled at PR, but are not necessarily telling the truth.
- opendais 12y ago
  Eh? They stated they didn't monitor stuff via a browser. The thing is, a client connection to the TOR network wouldn't look like a HTTP request. So "No we don't monitor your browser traffic" is the equivalent of saying "Yes, we do monitor if you do something other than use a browser to surf the web" in a situation where the object of discussion isn't a browser.
rnovak 12y ago
We do not terminate customers for violating the Copyright Alert System (aka "six strikes"), which is a non-punitive, educational and voluntary copyright program. Since when is this "voluntary"? I'm guessing in that if you choose not to subscribe to any ISP, I guess you wouldn't be 'enrolled' in the program, but you also wouldn't have internet service, about as 'voluntary' as breathing is to life.
- freehunter 12y ago
  It's voluntary in that the ISP is not forced into using it. They just force you to use it.
fsk141 12y ago
I know it's a word vomit blast, but tried to post this comment on the page; I doubt it'll get approved or replied to... " ...educational and voluntary copyright program." -- volunteer, hum, afaik and from what I recall from seeing these in the past; by clicking on any of the links in one of those emails, you are admitting guilt. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it that if you respond to these you admit that you downloaded something & if you just ignore there is nothing you (comcast) can do to prove otherwise (what if you have an open network, share your key with friends, etc.) Likewise, who would want to volunteer for a program that profiles what their downloading. While you say you don't "terminate" users based on copyright infringement, the fact is that you are monitoring your users to differentiate who's doing what. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I don't believe this PR stunt. I know it means nothing, since I'm from the internet (and who should take me seriously), but I've been a corporate customer, and have worked with residential users of comcast, and would not doubt nefarious monitoring. If you would like anyone to take you seriously proof would be nice, not just a inconsequential mess of "yeah, we promise we're not monitoring you, and I, Jason, am using tor, so it's okay." For one you're the VP, no one would dare step on your toes, you don't count! "
- eli 12y ago
  You have badly misunderstood what the copyright program is and how it works. The ISP volunteered to participate, not the user. And they don't monitor traffic for violations, they accept notices of violations observered by outside content companies.

92 points by _mayo 12y ago

Today we should be thankful that our ruler has a good policy on Tor. Should they change their mind we could do nothing about it.

mindslight 12y ago
The only way to change this is to make it so that enough people are using (mutually-indistinguishable) encrypted protocols, that blocking such protocols would cripple the ISP's business.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

sp332 12y ago
There haven't been any recordings. There was one supposed chat transcript posted to /r/darknetmarkets.
- ufmace 12y ago
  Supposedly posted to /r/darknetmarkets. I haven't seen any links to actual posts yet. I did do a quick search of the sub for comcast, and found nothing. I don't see why the darknetmarkets mods would delete it, and the only other explanation is that it's entirely made up.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - sp332 12y ago
    http://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/2g2e44/is_comcast_legally_allowed_to_do_this/ http://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/2g2e44/is_co...
    - ufmace 12y ago
      Thanks. Guess it is there after all, and either reddit search is lame, or I'm lazy. Possibly both. ETA: Just checked it again, noticed that the OP of that thread deleted his account. Could be he wanted anonymity, or could be that he made it all up. Hmm...
pyre 12y ago
They say: > anecdotal chat room evidence You say: > you record our reps [...] those recordings I'm curious which recordings that you listened to, because it sounds like they don't know about them.

noonespecial 12y ago

Comcast likely cares very much if you run a Tor exit. They don't care at all (and probably can't even tell) if you just use the browser bundle. Someone was likely threatened with disconnection for the former. This is probably the source of the confusion.

opendais 12y ago
Eh? https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2011-June/020657.html https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2011-June/02... http://www.dailydot.com/politics/six-steps-nsa-attack-tor/ http://www.dailydot.com/politics/six-steps-nsa-attack-tor/ Yes they can tell if you use TOR. TOR is like a VPN, it can be detected but it doesn't tell the ISP what you are doing while you use it.
- Monkeyget 12y ago
  They don't know what's going on if you are a user or an intermediate node. If you are an exit node they see all the traffic in clear.
  - opendais 12y ago
    Sorry, I thought the context was clear. I was talking about an end user as described in the OP. Yes, if its an exit node that is the case.

opendais 12y ago

> Comcast doesn’t monitor our customer’s browser software, web surfing or online history. I'd take this as evidence they monitor every connection that isn't over http ... which happens to include VPNs and Tor. Otherwise, they would have just said "We do not monitor your internet connection except to gather aggregate statistics for billing purposes".

imacomputer2 12y ago
"Comcast doesn’t monitor our customer’s browser software, web surfing or online history." That would imply that they don't even have a log of what requests are passing through their system. I find that extremely hard to believe.
- AnthonyMouse 12y ago
  > That would imply that they don't even have a log of what requests are passing through their system. I find that extremely hard to believe. They damn well better not be.
  - opendais 12y ago
    "Comcast did not respond to our inquiries but has mentioned a 180 day retention policy for IP-addresses in BitTorrent-related court documents. On some occasions cases have been dismissed because logs were no longer available, meaning that alleged infringers could not be identified. The 180 day policy is also mentioned in the Comcast Law Enforcement Handbook that leaked in 2007." https://torrentfreak.com/how-long-does-your-isp-store-ip-address-logs-120629/ https://torrentfreak.com/how-long-does-your-isp-store-ip-add... https://blog.ryankearney.com/2013/01/comcast-caught-intercepting-and-altering-your-web-traffic/ https://blog.ryankearney.com/2013/01/comcast-caught-intercep... They are clearly logging some things. I'm mostly amused people want to downvote my comment and pretend it isn't happening.
    - AnthonyMouse 12y ago
      > Comcast did not respond to our inquiries but has mentioned a 180 day retention policy for IP-addresses in BitTorrent-related court documents. That sounds like they keep the DHCP logs for that long, i.e. which subscriber's router was assigned a particular IP address at a particular time. That's a far cry from logging actual traffic.

polarix 12y ago

It's a very good sign that Comcast is posting this kind of correction. It indicates that they perceive a broad social consensus that supporting internet anonymity is a crucial responsibility of an ISP, and lends credence to the ongoing importance of net neutrality. It also, as a secondary effect, might incline us to look more favorably on Comcast's arguments regarding backbone capacity negotiations.

opendais 12y ago
They didn't actually say they didn't monitor Tor tho. :/ That is why I'm kinda amused by the positive posts. They said they don't monitor people's browsers and http connections. TOR wouldn't look like that at all to them. Its a lie of omission. They clearly monitor Torrents, etc.
- polarix 12y ago
  Even if the details weren't entirely consistent, the fact that they made any sort of statement at all is cause for optimism.

chippy 12y ago

Comcast seems to get negative press on reddit - at least as much as Netflix has positive. The site must be very easy for marketeers to game.

revelation 12y ago
Or Comcast just is that terrible. I'm not sure people are faking these 30 minutes long captures of a sales person repeatedly asking you to upgrade when you are calling to cancel.
grecy 12y ago
The marketing hype for Netflix on Reddit is astounding. I've stopped reading many movie related subs because of it.
opendais 12y ago
Comcast is really that terrible. And yes, that is why things like http://www.reddit.com/r/hailcorporate http://www.reddit.com/r/hailcorporate exist.
nmjohn 12y ago
I normally would take a cynical approach and agree that gaming reddit is that easy. But when my fairly conservative parents hate a company enough to desire government regulation against them... That company truly must be that horrible.
eli 12y ago
I don't think there are any shadowy marketing figures pulling strings.
Buge 12y ago
I don't think it's marketers. One person makes a negative post about it and gets to the front page so other people think "I know, I'll also make a negative post and get to the front page and get a ton of karma." And everyone upvotes people who confirm their own opinions. Now because of the reputation, anyone who is going to talk to Comcast will record the call, just in case. And the people who do have the call go bad will quick post it to reddit to get popular.

Gregordinary 12y ago

"Customers are free to use their Xfinity Internet service to visit any website, use any app, and so forth." Any app, but not on any device as I found out when I tried to activate HBO GO on a Roku. Apparently if Comcast is your ISP, you cannot use HBO GO on your Roku (or PS3 for that matter). EDIT: You can see what devices are supported here: http://www.hbogo.com/activate/ http://www.hbogo.com/activate/

MBCook 12y ago
Wow, I'd never seen that. What an odd restriction.
- cmiller1 12y ago
  Probably a restriction imposed by HBO because they have been so terrified of loosing their content into non-traditional outlets.
  - getsaf 12y ago
    Definitely not this. HBO has written an app specifically for the Roku. As far as I can tell, Comcast is the only provider who disallows access to the Roku version of the app. I can use the HBO Android app with Comcast just fine and push to a Chromecast, but not the Roku. It's a ridiculous situation, Comcast is intentionally blocking Roku while HBO is embracing it.
    - cmiller1 12y ago
      Ahh, I stand corrected then.
chrisBob 12y ago
Sort of. Its important to note that there is a difference between what they restrict in the way of internet traffic, and what they sponsor in terms of allowing access to specific content over the internet. The services that you log into via your Comcast account (I use HBO Go, HGTV, NBC Live Extra...) are provided by an agreement between the content provider and the carrier. They aren't stopping you from using HBO Go on a Roku with their internet service, and your friend with FiOS can hook his Roku up and watch shows at your house over your Xfinity connection.

eli 12y ago

It's a little scary how quickly an unsourced and highly questionable story can spread when it feeds a popular narrative (in this case that Comcast is evil).

slg 12y ago
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~ Mark Twain, Winston Churchill, Jonathan Swift, or some other person who said things good. Whoever said it, they said it before the dawn of the internet. What was once a figurative embellishment is now the literal truth. This story was almost everywhere on social media before any of the high level people at Comcast had the chance to put their shoes on and show up at work on Monday morning to comment on it.
- jlivingood 12y ago
  Great quote!
hawleyal 12y ago
It's a little scary how a denial by the company can easily dissuade a dissenting opinion.

dang 12y ago

The earlier thread on this, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8318652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8318652, was (appropriately) flagged by users. But it did have a judicious top comment.

bowlofpetunias 12y ago

Whatever may be wrong with Comcast (connectivity-wise I'm soooo glad I don't live in the US), this is absolutely exemplary damage control PR. Clear, accessible, no weasel words, no lawyer-speak, to the point and with a human touch to round it of.

AdmiralAsshat 12y ago
Well, they addressed the content of the allegations, but not the source, other than saying that the chat transcript was "inaccurate". In what way, we don't know. Was it completely fabricated? Was the Comcast representative misinformed? Have they backtracked on their policy? The fact that they don't address it at all suggests to me that they haven't drafted a damage-controlled explanation yet.
hawleyal 12y ago
They said something similar about the non-compliant service rep who would not cancel service. They are skilled at PR, but are not necessarily telling the truth.
opendais 12y ago
Eh? They stated they didn't monitor stuff via a browser. The thing is, a client connection to the TOR network wouldn't look like a HTTP request. So "No we don't monitor your browser traffic" is the equivalent of saying "Yes, we do monitor if you do something other than use a browser to surf the web" in a situation where the object of discussion isn't a browser.

rnovak 12y ago

We do not terminate customers for violating the Copyright Alert System (aka "six strikes"), which is a non-punitive, educational and voluntary copyright program. Since when is this "voluntary"? I'm guessing in that if you choose not to subscribe to any ISP, I guess you wouldn't be 'enrolled' in the program, but you also wouldn't have internet service, about as 'voluntary' as breathing is to life.

freehunter 12y ago
It's voluntary in that the ISP is not forced into using it. They just force you to use it.

fsk141 12y ago

I know it's a word vomit blast, but tried to post this comment on the page; I doubt it'll get approved or replied to... " ...educational and voluntary copyright program." -- volunteer, hum, afaik and from what I recall from seeing these in the past; by clicking on any of the links in one of those emails, you are admitting guilt. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it that if you respond to these you admit that you downloaded something & if you just ignore there is nothing you (comcast) can do to prove otherwise (what if you have an open network, share your key with friends, etc.) Likewise, who would want to volunteer for a program that profiles what their downloading. While you say you don't "terminate" users based on copyright infringement, the fact is that you are monitoring your users to differentiate who's doing what. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I don't believe this PR stunt. I know it means nothing, since I'm from the internet (and who should take me seriously), but I've been a corporate customer, and have worked with residential users of comcast, and would not doubt nefarious monitoring. If you would like anyone to take you seriously proof would be nice, not just a inconsequential mess of "yeah, we promise we're not monitoring you, and I, Jason, am using tor, so it's okay." For one you're the VP, no one would dare step on your toes, you don't count! "

eli 12y ago
You have badly misunderstood what the copyright program is and how it works. The ISP volunteered to participate, not the user. And they don't monitor traffic for violations, they accept notices of violations observered by outside content companies.