5 ms·

This kind of shit is why I'm pro-abortion but anti-choice. It's clear that the lower classes are doing a terrible job of raising their own children, despite th

by afafsd 12y ago

This kind of shit is why I'm pro-abortion but anti-choice. It's clear that the lower classes are doing a terrible job of raising their own children, despite the best efforts of the rest of society to educate them, they can't escape the terrible values and role models imparted to them by their parents. And yet... >Before they turned 18, 40 percent of the black girls from low-income homes had given birth to their own babies

deleted 12y ago
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prawn 12y ago
Perhaps if people didn't try to prevent sex education or access to free birth control? Instead some are pushing abstinence like it will reliably happen.
- rayiner 12y ago
  Teenage pregnancy in the first world has little to do with either sex education or values. Having kids is the default mode of people. The instinct to reproduce is suppressed in the wealthier class, because they have a huge opportunity cost to do so. Poor people don't have much of an opportunity cost, and indeed have economic incentives to have kids (more welfare support). 60% of girls in the study didn't have kids as teenagers, yet only 4% of the whole sample went to college. It wasn't like the people gave up a lot by having kids.
  - jnazario 12y ago
    > Teenage pregnancy in the first world has little to do with either sex education or values. i don't know where you get your ideas but they do not jive with many more learned observations than yours. http://journals.lww.com/ajnonline/Fulltext/2012/03000/Comprehensive_Sex_Education_for_Teens_Is_More.5.as%20%20px http://journals.lww.com/ajnonline/Fulltext/2012/03000/Compre... Comprehensive Sex Education for Teens Is More Effective than Abstinence http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Feature.showFeature&featureID=1041 http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Feature.showFeatu... National Data Shows Comprehensive Sex Education Better at Reducing Teen Pregnancy than Abstinence-Only Programs http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/250073 http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/250073 The Effects of Sex Education on Teen Sexual Activity and Teen Pregnancy http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080319151225.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080319151225.ht... Comprehensive Sex Education Might Reduce Teen Pregnancies, Study Suggests http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/ Abstinence-Only Education and Teen Pregnancy Rates: Why We Need Comprehensive Sex Education in the U.S Kathrin F. Stanger-Hall, David W. Hall PLoS One. 2011; 6(10): e24658. Published online 2011 October 14. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0024658 related: http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/abstinence-only-education-does-not-lead-to-abstinent-behavior/ http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/abstinence-only-educati... Abstinence-only education does not lead to abstinent behavior, UGA researchers find http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/11/30/uga-study-higher-pregnancy-rates-in-states-with-abstinence-only-ed-programs-in-schools/ http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/11/30/uga-study-... UGA study: Higher pregnancy and birth rates in states with abstinence-only sex ed programs in schools
    - rayiner 12y ago
      I'm not saying abstinence-only education works or works better or as well as comprehensive sex education. Obviously the latter works better. I'm saying that the impact of sex education and access to contraceptives is, beyond a certain threshold, less important than socioeconomic factors: See: http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/Modern-Parenthood/2012/0522/Teenage-pregnancy-High-US-rates-due-to-poverty-not-promiscuity; http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/Modern-Parenthoo... http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-muckrakers/2012/07/study-turns-conventional-wisdom-about-teen-pregnancy-and-poverty-on-its-head http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-muckrakers/2012/07/study-t.... Quote from one of the authors of a study cited in the second article: > "The wider that gap is [to the next socioeconomic rung of the ladder] the more likely these young girls are to think, 'You know what? It's so unlikely that I'm going to get there, even if I play by the rules and stay in school,'" said Kearney. "There's less return to making that investment in education, in delaying motherhood. If you're on this low economic trajectory, there's not much cost in having a teen birth. You didn't anticipate going to college or getting married anyway.
- afafsd 12y ago
  Obviously that would be part of the solution. But remember we're talking Baltimore here, not Buttfuck, Mississippi. Compulsory abortion is a contentious issue, but at the very least I think it should be compulsory for anyone getting pregnant under the age of eighteen. If we have the legal fiction that <18 year olds are too immature even to be able to consent to sexual intercourse, I have no idea why we're okay with them actually having children of their own. In the old days we used to adopt them out, but adoption has its own drawbacks. Now we as a society have become comfortable with the idea of abortion as not-murder I see no reason not to use it in cases like this.
  - BadCookie 12y ago
    We are definitely NOT comfortable with the idea that abortion is not murder. Maybe the people in your circle of friends are, but generally speaking (in the U.S. at least) many people are far from comfortable with it. I tend to be pretty liberal about most things (Legalize drugs? Sure! Gay marriage? Absolutely!) and I am quite uncomfortable with abortion. Maybe it is necessary in some cases, and I don't presume to know where the line should be drawn, but if and when it must be done, I feel that it is a tragedy. I saw my son kicking on the ultrasound screen when he was 12 weeks old, and I cringe any time somebody makes a statement with the unspoken assumption that my son did not "exist" prior to birth ... a ridiculous notion if ever there was one. At the same time, I know how hard a baby can be. I am nearly 30 and having a child has been almost devastatingly difficult. So on one hand, I agree with you that < 18 year olds should not be having children. But to force a mother to abort her baby? Do you have any idea what you are proposing?? To me, it is beyond awful. Maybe, instead, we should work to become a society where having a child at 17 doesn't cripple you for the rest of your life. That is the real problem, isn't it? Edited to add: Of course, sex education should be a large part of the equation, as well as easy and preferably free access to birth control.
    - prawn 12y ago
      Exactly. At best, abortion is a fallback rather than a default. Surely you'd like everything you can along the lines of sex education and birth control (free condoms, free implants, etc) before you even get to abortion.
rfrey 12y ago
Why not just sterilize everyone who you consider lower class and incapable of raising acceptable children?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

by afafsd 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

prawn 12y ago

Perhaps if people didn't try to prevent sex education or access to free birth control? Instead some are pushing abstinence like it will reliably happen.

rayiner 12y ago
Teenage pregnancy in the first world has little to do with either sex education or values. Having kids is the default mode of people. The instinct to reproduce is suppressed in the wealthier class, because they have a huge opportunity cost to do so. Poor people don't have much of an opportunity cost, and indeed have economic incentives to have kids (more welfare support). 60% of girls in the study didn't have kids as teenagers, yet only 4% of the whole sample went to college. It wasn't like the people gave up a lot by having kids.
- jnazario 12y ago
  > Teenage pregnancy in the first world has little to do with either sex education or values. i don't know where you get your ideas but they do not jive with many more learned observations than yours. http://journals.lww.com/ajnonline/Fulltext/2012/03000/Comprehensive_Sex_Education_for_Teens_Is_More.5.as%20%20px http://journals.lww.com/ajnonline/Fulltext/2012/03000/Compre... Comprehensive Sex Education for Teens Is More Effective than Abstinence http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Feature.showFeature&featureID=1041 http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Feature.showFeatu... National Data Shows Comprehensive Sex Education Better at Reducing Teen Pregnancy than Abstinence-Only Programs http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/250073 http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/250073 The Effects of Sex Education on Teen Sexual Activity and Teen Pregnancy http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080319151225.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080319151225.ht... Comprehensive Sex Education Might Reduce Teen Pregnancies, Study Suggests http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/ Abstinence-Only Education and Teen Pregnancy Rates: Why We Need Comprehensive Sex Education in the U.S Kathrin F. Stanger-Hall, David W. Hall PLoS One. 2011; 6(10): e24658. Published online 2011 October 14. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0024658 related: http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/abstinence-only-education-does-not-lead-to-abstinent-behavior/ http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/abstinence-only-educati... Abstinence-only education does not lead to abstinent behavior, UGA researchers find http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/11/30/uga-study-higher-pregnancy-rates-in-states-with-abstinence-only-ed-programs-in-schools/ http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/11/30/uga-study-... UGA study: Higher pregnancy and birth rates in states with abstinence-only sex ed programs in schools
  - rayiner 12y ago
    I'm not saying abstinence-only education works or works better or as well as comprehensive sex education. Obviously the latter works better. I'm saying that the impact of sex education and access to contraceptives is, beyond a certain threshold, less important than socioeconomic factors: See: http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/Modern-Parenthood/2012/0522/Teenage-pregnancy-High-US-rates-due-to-poverty-not-promiscuity; http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/Modern-Parenthoo... http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-muckrakers/2012/07/study-turns-conventional-wisdom-about-teen-pregnancy-and-poverty-on-its-head http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-muckrakers/2012/07/study-t.... Quote from one of the authors of a study cited in the second article: > "The wider that gap is [to the next socioeconomic rung of the ladder] the more likely these young girls are to think, 'You know what? It's so unlikely that I'm going to get there, even if I play by the rules and stay in school,'" said Kearney. "There's less return to making that investment in education, in delaying motherhood. If you're on this low economic trajectory, there's not much cost in having a teen birth. You didn't anticipate going to college or getting married anyway.
afafsd 12y ago
Obviously that would be part of the solution. But remember we're talking Baltimore here, not Buttfuck, Mississippi. Compulsory abortion is a contentious issue, but at the very least I think it should be compulsory for anyone getting pregnant under the age of eighteen. If we have the legal fiction that <18 year olds are too immature even to be able to consent to sexual intercourse, I have no idea why we're okay with them actually having children of their own. In the old days we used to adopt them out, but adoption has its own drawbacks. Now we as a society have become comfortable with the idea of abortion as not-murder I see no reason not to use it in cases like this.
- BadCookie 12y ago
  We are definitely NOT comfortable with the idea that abortion is not murder. Maybe the people in your circle of friends are, but generally speaking (in the U.S. at least) many people are far from comfortable with it. I tend to be pretty liberal about most things (Legalize drugs? Sure! Gay marriage? Absolutely!) and I am quite uncomfortable with abortion. Maybe it is necessary in some cases, and I don't presume to know where the line should be drawn, but if and when it must be done, I feel that it is a tragedy. I saw my son kicking on the ultrasound screen when he was 12 weeks old, and I cringe any time somebody makes a statement with the unspoken assumption that my son did not "exist" prior to birth ... a ridiculous notion if ever there was one. At the same time, I know how hard a baby can be. I am nearly 30 and having a child has been almost devastatingly difficult. So on one hand, I agree with you that < 18 year olds should not be having children. But to force a mother to abort her baby? Do you have any idea what you are proposing?? To me, it is beyond awful. Maybe, instead, we should work to become a society where having a child at 17 doesn't cripple you for the rest of your life. That is the real problem, isn't it? Edited to add: Of course, sex education should be a large part of the equation, as well as easy and preferably free access to birth control.
  - prawn 12y ago
    Exactly. At best, abortion is a fallback rather than a default. Surely you'd like everything you can along the lines of sex education and birth control (free condoms, free implants, etc) before you even get to abortion.

rfrey 12y ago

Why not just sterilize everyone who you consider lower class and incapable of raising acceptable children?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]