4 ms·

Pakistan is a FinFisher customer, leak confirms

114 points by rhu86 12y ago

jonaldomo 12y ago
Later it will be revealed the user posting support tickets is actually a CIA operative... Its going to get juicy!
- tptacek 12y ago
  We could have more political stories on HN, fewer of them knocked off the front page by flagging, as they are today, if it wasn't for the people who took every such story as an opportunity to inject substance-free snark into the site. Unfortunately, there's no real way to make that happen, so instead, we'll keep doing what we do now: patrolling the front page and killing stories that present too many opportunities for comments like yours. It's too bad, that comment! Usually, when I read a comment like this, I click through the profile looking for other terrible comments to flag, and usually when I do that, I end up wading through a cistern of crap and malevolence. Not in your case! Anybody who can write comments that start with "I work for an EMR provider and..." has something to contribute to the site. Why muddy those contributions with stuff like this?
  - forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
    Instead of killing off the story through flagging, why not just disable commenting on the story? Seems like banning / downmodding users should work just fine, instead of killing off the whole story.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      That's not a feature of HN. It's mostly not HN that is forcing political stories off the site, although HN's moderators have confirmed repeatedly that such flagging is appropriate given the site guidelines.
  - dqmdm2 12y ago
    Every story is an opportunity to snark. You should ban the account that made the comment not suppress the controversial information. The information that FinFisher supports/profits/enables oppressive governments should not be hidden just because you don't like the comments.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      No "information is being hidden". There's a whole internet's worth of venues on which to discuss stories like this. They aren't worth the cost to the site, and so they get flagged off the site. It's also true that all stories are an opportunity for snark. But it's not true that all kinds of snark are equally toxic. The kinds of snark that fill up threads like this are particularly bad.
      - HoochTHX 12y ago
        The idea of hiding content due to unwanted rabble rousing, at the loss of the content and discussion regarding dual use tech, strikes me as the preferd solution of someone who stands to lose business and is attempting to protect themselves. Choose what ever label you want, by any name it is still censorship, and cronyism. Moxie was right about you.
        tptacek 12y ago
        What did Moxie say about me?
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        dang 12y ago
        Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.
  - jonaldomo 12y ago
    "Snarky?"... "My account should be banned?" The CIA involvement in Pakistan is widely known and is in the mainstream media. All the spy novels, documentaries and movies in the past decade are around the secret war going on in Pakistan.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      The CIA is so tight with the ISI that Osama bin Laden lived in a huge house blocks away from the Pakistani equivalent of West Point. Or, wait...
    - mpyne 12y ago
      I really hope "spy novels" is not what you'd consider actual evidence. As you say, it's not exactly a secret that the U.S. and Pakistan have been working together (since the 1970s at least, natch). What is not widely known is just how fragmented and unbelievably complex that U.S.-Pakistani relationship actually is, not to mention the relationships of various groups within Pakistan, which is why the idea that "oh, the CIA just runs Pakistan" is so devoid in substance. Pakistan doesn't even run Pakistan, let alone any CIA puppet-masters.
  - throwaway2048 12y ago
    you are not a mod, you are however presenting yourself as having the authority of one. Please don't do this.
4k 12y ago
Its makes me sad to think a government of a nation with so little prosperity somehow has money to spend on this kind of shit.
- godgod 12y ago
  Spying on your citizens is prosperity in a totalitarian government like Pakistan. They will do anything and everything to hold onto control.
- phaus 12y ago
  Lots of countries are filthy rich when you consider the fact that a select few get to spend all the money. Ghaddafi, for example, had over $200 billion because he "owned" everything in Libya.
billyhoffman 12y ago
Does it honestly surprise anyone that Pakistan is a customer of FinFisher, given the history of their ISI service? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm seriously. State actors were a target customer for FinFisher, and it isn't that hard to figure out probably customers. Saudi Arabia tried to get Moxie to help them spy on its citizens, so I imagine they are a good bet too. http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/ http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/
jgalt212 12y ago
I bet Palantir also has Pakistan as a client.
- tptacek 12y ago
  This comment is even worse than the one I commented below. It uses a story that has nothing to do with Palantir as an opportunity to bash Palantir. But thank you; you've helped me make my point. Of 4 root comments on this story, 3 of them are now awful. And people wonder why we flag political stories. For what it's worth: I didn't flag that other comment, but I sure as shit flagged this one. It's objectively foul. I felt a little bad making a stink about that other comment, because their comment history wasn't at all bad. I do not feel that way about this comment.
  - jgalt212 12y ago
    I flagged yours for your foul language. And, please give us one example where you think Palantir shouldn't be bashed. Palantir is basically Blackwater with computers instead of guns.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      "Palantir is basically Blackwater without the guns". We could turn this into a fun game: we could make a little survey and see if people "agree", "strongly agree", "disagree", &c with that statement. Then we can bet on whether those people have the first clue about what Palantir's software actually does. You know, besides killing Occupy protesters with their array of orbital lasers. It's right there in the name! That's how you know they're evil!
      - jgalt212 12y ago
        tptacek is a karma bully. Let that be known.
        YuriNiyazov 12y ago
yarou 12y ago
Why is it that "professional" spyware seems to be written by a middle school student with access to Visual Basic? I mean if you're going to spy on other people, at least make it look good. These guys need a new design department
abdullahkhalids 12y ago
It is surprising that some entity in Pakistan is a customer of FinFisher. There are only two internet cables out of the country, both monitored by the state (which for example allows the continued blocking of YouTube. Therefore, if you have the IP address of someone it is trivial for anyone in the state/government to setup a system to access their unencrypted communication. Indeed the government has tried to buy such systems in the past (I can dig up the RFP if anyone asks). This points to someone in the intelligence not wanting the other entities in the country to know exactly what they are doing.

114 points by rhu86 12y ago

jonaldomo 12y ago

Later it will be revealed the user posting support tickets is actually a CIA operative... Its going to get juicy!

tptacek 12y ago
We could have more political stories on HN, fewer of them knocked off the front page by flagging, as they are today, if it wasn't for the people who took every such story as an opportunity to inject substance-free snark into the site. Unfortunately, there's no real way to make that happen, so instead, we'll keep doing what we do now: patrolling the front page and killing stories that present too many opportunities for comments like yours. It's too bad, that comment! Usually, when I read a comment like this, I click through the profile looking for other terrible comments to flag, and usually when I do that, I end up wading through a cistern of crap and malevolence. Not in your case! Anybody who can write comments that start with "I work for an EMR provider and..." has something to contribute to the site. Why muddy those contributions with stuff like this?
- forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
  Instead of killing off the story through flagging, why not just disable commenting on the story? Seems like banning / downmodding users should work just fine, instead of killing off the whole story.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    That's not a feature of HN. It's mostly not HN that is forcing political stories off the site, although HN's moderators have confirmed repeatedly that such flagging is appropriate given the site guidelines.
- dqmdm2 12y ago
  Every story is an opportunity to snark. You should ban the account that made the comment not suppress the controversial information. The information that FinFisher supports/profits/enables oppressive governments should not be hidden just because you don't like the comments.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    No "information is being hidden". There's a whole internet's worth of venues on which to discuss stories like this. They aren't worth the cost to the site, and so they get flagged off the site. It's also true that all stories are an opportunity for snark. But it's not true that all kinds of snark are equally toxic. The kinds of snark that fill up threads like this are particularly bad.
    - HoochTHX 12y ago
      The idea of hiding content due to unwanted rabble rousing, at the loss of the content and discussion regarding dual use tech, strikes me as the preferd solution of someone who stands to lose business and is attempting to protect themselves. Choose what ever label you want, by any name it is still censorship, and cronyism. Moxie was right about you.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        What did Moxie say about me?
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - dang 12y ago
        Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.
- jonaldomo 12y ago
  "Snarky?"... "My account should be banned?" The CIA involvement in Pakistan is widely known and is in the mainstream media. All the spy novels, documentaries and movies in the past decade are around the secret war going on in Pakistan.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    The CIA is so tight with the ISI that Osama bin Laden lived in a huge house blocks away from the Pakistani equivalent of West Point. Or, wait...
  - mpyne 12y ago
    I really hope "spy novels" is not what you'd consider actual evidence. As you say, it's not exactly a secret that the U.S. and Pakistan have been working together (since the 1970s at least, natch). What is not widely known is just how fragmented and unbelievably complex that U.S.-Pakistani relationship actually is, not to mention the relationships of various groups within Pakistan, which is why the idea that "oh, the CIA just runs Pakistan" is so devoid in substance. Pakistan doesn't even run Pakistan, let alone any CIA puppet-masters.
- throwaway2048 12y ago
  you are not a mod, you are however presenting yourself as having the authority of one. Please don't do this.

4k 12y ago

Its makes me sad to think a government of a nation with so little prosperity somehow has money to spend on this kind of shit.

godgod 12y ago
Spying on your citizens is prosperity in a totalitarian government like Pakistan. They will do anything and everything to hold onto control.
phaus 12y ago
Lots of countries are filthy rich when you consider the fact that a select few get to spend all the money. Ghaddafi, for example, had over $200 billion because he "owned" everything in Libya.

billyhoffman 12y ago

Does it honestly surprise anyone that Pakistan is a customer of FinFisher, given the history of their ISI service? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm seriously. State actors were a target customer for FinFisher, and it isn't that hard to figure out probably customers. Saudi Arabia tried to get Moxie to help them spy on its citizens, so I imagine they are a good bet too. http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/ http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/

jgalt212 12y ago

I bet Palantir also has Pakistan as a client.

tptacek 12y ago
This comment is even worse than the one I commented below. It uses a story that has nothing to do with Palantir as an opportunity to bash Palantir. But thank you; you've helped me make my point. Of 4 root comments on this story, 3 of them are now awful. And people wonder why we flag political stories. For what it's worth: I didn't flag that other comment, but I sure as shit flagged this one. It's objectively foul. I felt a little bad making a stink about that other comment, because their comment history wasn't at all bad. I do not feel that way about this comment.
- jgalt212 12y ago
  I flagged yours for your foul language. And, please give us one example where you think Palantir shouldn't be bashed. Palantir is basically Blackwater with computers instead of guns.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    "Palantir is basically Blackwater without the guns". We could turn this into a fun game: we could make a little survey and see if people "agree", "strongly agree", "disagree", &c with that statement. Then we can bet on whether those people have the first clue about what Palantir's software actually does. You know, besides killing Occupy protesters with their array of orbital lasers. It's right there in the name! That's how you know they're evil!
    - jgalt212 12y ago
      tptacek is a karma bully. Let that be known.
      - YuriNiyazov 12y ago

yarou 12y ago

Why is it that "professional" spyware seems to be written by a middle school student with access to Visual Basic? I mean if you're going to spy on other people, at least make it look good. These guys need a new design department

abdullahkhalids 12y ago

It is surprising that some entity in Pakistan is a customer of FinFisher. There are only two internet cables out of the country, both monitored by the state (which for example allows the continued blocking of YouTube. Therefore, if you have the IP address of someone it is trivial for anyone in the state/government to setup a system to access their unencrypted communication. Indeed the government has tried to buy such systems in the past (I can dig up the RFP if anyone asks). This points to someone in the intelligence not wanting the other entities in the country to know exactly what they are doing.