7 ms·

Ecuador Turning to Virtual Currency

51 points by bfwi 12y ago

billyhoffman 12y ago
Given Ecuador's financial situation, this seems like a plan to print money to pay bills, and make that "virtual" money to saving on printing :-)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - ricardonunez 12y ago
    They have to pay for exchanging damaged currencies. It cost millions every year to Ecuador. That's what he is referring to printing I believe.
- dualogy 12y ago
  That would be incredibly shortsighted. Assuming it's not the case, it's still a reasonable move: they need to pay their national debts in American dollars. There's no need for countless dollar notes to be circulating throughout the country every day for intra-national commerce, anything else that would be inflated at most below US QE levels would do the same trick and release those USD notes from that task, hopefully sooner or later trickle them back to the national treasury in order to send them back to where they originated. Plans of mice and men, but they gotta give it a try. No country can afford to depend on the US national currency for too much in the long run.
  - AJ007 12y ago
    Presume someone resorting to gimmicks to manage spending in excess of revenue is shortsighted (intentionally or otherwise.) Borrowing money in a foreign currency has pros and cons but I suspect most citizens don't realize the long term consequences.
salibhai 12y ago
51% attack, anyone?
- berns 12y ago
  It could be a proof-of-stake based cryptocurrency and the goverment would initially own the total supply.
- jordigh 12y ago
  The article is scant on details the actual currency, but it doesn't sound like they are intending to make it decentralised nor a cryptocurrency.
mr_luc 12y ago
Oh, boy. I have a house in Ecuador. I am a fan of Bitcoin. And I am, on the whole, probably still a fan of Correa. But ... yikes.
jordigh 12y ago
What's virtual about it? I can't tell from reading the article. Is it virtual merely because none of it will be coins or bills? Do other such "virtual" currencies exist, i.e. virtual merely because they only exist in ledgers and bank balances? I mean, other than the vast majority of US dollars and other traditional currencies. All this talk of virtual currencies reminds me of how Europeans viewed Chinese paper money with suspicion when it was first described in The Travels.
- lucb1e 12y ago
  There are others, like Stripe is currently developing and the former e-gold, but none backed by any government that I'm aware of. Norway mentioned plans to abandon physical money altogether, but no specific mention of a new, virtual currency. It wouldn't be any time soon anyway.
- imaginenore 12y ago
  Yes, most US dollars are "virtual" by their definition. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/MB%2C_M1_and_M2_aggregates_from_1981_to_2012.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/MB%2C_M1_and_M... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
evbogue 12y ago
Perhaps a smarter idea for Ecuador is to take all of the USD they're circulating and convert it into an existing and proven cryptocurrency. While becoming the best place in the world for a unhindered exchange of USD --> BTC, they'd also not have to worry about all of the problems of building and administering a centralized virtual currency from scratch.
- EduardoBautista 12y ago
  Imagine you buy a house worth 100k one day in bitcoin. The next day, bitcoin increases its value 25%. That same house is now worth 75k, but you still owe 100k plus interest. This is one of the biggest flaws in bitcoin that people just can't seem to understand (or just don't _want_ to understand). You can't have a good loaning system with an unstable currency. Edit: I posted a better explanation below: "You take out a 100k mortgage in USD. Over the next year, the USD suffers suffers from extreme deflation (increases in value). It is now worth twice what is was worth last year. As a consequence, wages begin to go down. Now let's say you were earning 50k a year while paying down a 100k mortgage (not assuming a downpayment, this is for simplification). Next year, you are now being payed 25k but still owe that 100k mortgage. And the house is now worth 50k."
  - CodeMage 12y ago
    I don't understand. Did you buy a house in BTC or in USD? If you bought it in USD, then the value of it in USD hasn't changed. If you bought it in BTC, then your debt is in BTC. What am I missing?
    - EduardoBautista 12y ago
      If you bought it in BTC, the house is now much more expensive then when you originally bought it.
      - CodeMage 12y ago
        It's more expensive in USD, yes. Which is a problem if you're being paid in USD, instead of BTC. In other words: if your debt is not in the same currency as your income, that might be a problem. Is that what you're saying?
ddt 12y ago
Sounds like they're doing something closer to URVs [1] than Bitcoin. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor
- gus_massa 12y ago
  At the same time, here in Argentina we invented the Convertibility: "One Peso equal to One Dollar" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Currency_Board http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Currency_Board The main difference is that here the pesos were always "actual" bills, but the real started as "imaginary" bills. It worked initially (better than I expected), but we have an inflation that was 1% or 2% over the dollar inflation. So after 10 years we have a 20% difference in price, but we maintained the "One Peso equal to One Dollar" until it exploded. IIRC in Brazil the transition from 1-1 to 1-X was softer.
moron4hire 12y ago
I've only been to Ecuador once, but it seemed like people in general didn't trust the government and thought it was corrupt. If that is the case, Ecuador's problems wouldn't be monetary or fiscal at all, it'd be that they have a bunch of crooks robbing them blind. It always seems like it's my lay-about, heavy-drinking, multiple-DUI-offending, chain-smoking, new-car-on-lease-every-two-years cousins who have the most trouble with money. I once saw one of them chug the leftover half of a bottle of whiskey, smash it over the back of his truck (oblivious to the damage he did to the tail light) and scream, "That's how we DO!" Yeah, you have no idea how truthfully you speak, you idiot. And those three kids by two women you had out of wedlock are the ones who suffer the most for it. But "live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse," amiright!? If you don't get the analogy, my cousin is corrupt government, the kids are the people they govern. I'm not in general calling Ecuadorians drunken layabouts. And I'm not saying I specifically know this is the problem. I'm just saying, money is a communication of value, so if you have money problems, you most likely have value problems.
lucb1e 12y ago
> A monetary authority will be established to regulate the money I suppose I should not have been so excited. The title really does read a "virtual" currency and not a cryptography-backed cryptocurrency. This isn't what it sounded like, it's just like Paypal except the government is in charge.
- rhino369 12y ago
  You can have a cypto currency controlled by a central bank. In fact, we'll probably have them eventually. It would have a lot of the benefits of a cypto, like instantaneous transfer, without the drawbacks like major volatility.
bubbleRefuge 12y ago
My mom is Ecuadorian and I have lots of family there and happen to own property there. Correa is a gr8 president, but coming from the perspective of someone like myself who is well read on the intricacies of modern monetary systems, sticking with the dollar for this long has been one of the few very bad policies. From a political perspective its understandable given Ecuador's history of currency devaluations. This move will very likely permit Ecuador to continue this economic miracle and transformation that has taken place(lifting many out of poverty, etc) . These changes should enable Ecuador to increase GDP , reduce unemployment further, continue to improve public infrastructure, increase standards of living, and become less dependent on exports to drive the economy. Hopefully, this will become a lesson to the entire world wherein electing leaders that are literate about economics and the functioning of the modern monetary system -Correa has U.S. PHD in Economics- , who don't use inapplicable house-hold analogies ( i.e. gov should run like house-hold) to pander to voters ( are you listening EU ? ) can make the kind of strides that policy makers talk about but never achieve. Read 7 Deadly Innocent Frauds of economic policy[1] : 1) Government spending is limited by taxation and borrowing 2) With Government Debts we are leaving our debt burden to our children 3) Government budget deficits take away savings 4) Social Security is broken. 5) The trade deficit is an unsustainable imbalance that takes away jobs and output. 6)We need savings to provide the funds for investment. 7)It’s a bad thing that higher deficits today mean higher taxes tomorrow. [1] From Mosler's book http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

51 points by bfwi 12y ago

Given Ecuador's financial situation, this seems like a plan to print money to pay bills, and make that "virtual" money to saving on printing :-)

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- ricardonunez 12y ago
  They have to pay for exchanging damaged currencies. It cost millions every year to Ecuador. That's what he is referring to printing I believe.
dualogy 12y ago
That would be incredibly shortsighted. Assuming it's not the case, it's still a reasonable move: they need to pay their national debts in American dollars. There's no need for countless dollar notes to be circulating throughout the country every day for intra-national commerce, anything else that would be inflated at most below US QE levels would do the same trick and release those USD notes from that task, hopefully sooner or later trickle them back to the national treasury in order to send them back to where they originated. Plans of mice and men, but they gotta give it a try. No country can afford to depend on the US national currency for too much in the long run.
- AJ007 12y ago
  Presume someone resorting to gimmicks to manage spending in excess of revenue is shortsighted (intentionally or otherwise.) Borrowing money in a foreign currency has pros and cons but I suspect most citizens don't realize the long term consequences.

salibhai 12y ago

51% attack, anyone?

berns 12y ago
It could be a proof-of-stake based cryptocurrency and the goverment would initially own the total supply.
jordigh 12y ago
The article is scant on details the actual currency, but it doesn't sound like they are intending to make it decentralised nor a cryptocurrency.

mr_luc 12y ago

Oh, boy. I have a house in Ecuador. I am a fan of Bitcoin. And I am, on the whole, probably still a fan of Correa. But ... yikes.

jordigh 12y ago

What's virtual about it? I can't tell from reading the article. Is it virtual merely because none of it will be coins or bills? Do other such "virtual" currencies exist, i.e. virtual merely because they only exist in ledgers and bank balances? I mean, other than the vast majority of US dollars and other traditional currencies. All this talk of virtual currencies reminds me of how Europeans viewed Chinese paper money with suspicion when it was first described in The Travels.

lucb1e 12y ago
There are others, like Stripe is currently developing and the former e-gold, but none backed by any government that I'm aware of. Norway mentioned plans to abandon physical money altogether, but no specific mention of a new, virtual currency. It wouldn't be any time soon anyway.
imaginenore 12y ago
Yes, most US dollars are "virtual" by their definition. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/MB%2C_M1_and_M2_aggregates_from_1981_to_2012.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/MB%2C_M1_and_M... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply

evbogue 12y ago

Perhaps a smarter idea for Ecuador is to take all of the USD they're circulating and convert it into an existing and proven cryptocurrency. While becoming the best place in the world for a unhindered exchange of USD --> BTC, they'd also not have to worry about all of the problems of building and administering a centralized virtual currency from scratch.

EduardoBautista 12y ago
Imagine you buy a house worth 100k one day in bitcoin. The next day, bitcoin increases its value 25%. That same house is now worth 75k, but you still owe 100k plus interest. This is one of the biggest flaws in bitcoin that people just can't seem to understand (or just don't _want_ to understand). You can't have a good loaning system with an unstable currency. Edit: I posted a better explanation below: "You take out a 100k mortgage in USD. Over the next year, the USD suffers suffers from extreme deflation (increases in value). It is now worth twice what is was worth last year. As a consequence, wages begin to go down. Now let's say you were earning 50k a year while paying down a 100k mortgage (not assuming a downpayment, this is for simplification). Next year, you are now being payed 25k but still owe that 100k mortgage. And the house is now worth 50k."
- CodeMage 12y ago
  I don't understand. Did you buy a house in BTC or in USD? If you bought it in USD, then the value of it in USD hasn't changed. If you bought it in BTC, then your debt is in BTC. What am I missing?
  - EduardoBautista 12y ago
    If you bought it in BTC, the house is now much more expensive then when you originally bought it.
    - CodeMage 12y ago
      It's more expensive in USD, yes. Which is a problem if you're being paid in USD, instead of BTC. In other words: if your debt is not in the same currency as your income, that might be a problem. Is that what you're saying?

ddt 12y ago

Sounds like they're doing something closer to URVs [1] than Bitcoin. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor

gus_massa 12y ago
At the same time, here in Argentina we invented the Convertibility: "One Peso equal to One Dollar" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Currency_Board http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Currency_Board The main difference is that here the pesos were always "actual" bills, but the real started as "imaginary" bills. It worked initially (better than I expected), but we have an inflation that was 1% or 2% over the dollar inflation. So after 10 years we have a 20% difference in price, but we maintained the "One Peso equal to One Dollar" until it exploded. IIRC in Brazil the transition from 1-1 to 1-X was softer.

moron4hire 12y ago

I've only been to Ecuador once, but it seemed like people in general didn't trust the government and thought it was corrupt. If that is the case, Ecuador's problems wouldn't be monetary or fiscal at all, it'd be that they have a bunch of crooks robbing them blind. It always seems like it's my lay-about, heavy-drinking, multiple-DUI-offending, chain-smoking, new-car-on-lease-every-two-years cousins who have the most trouble with money. I once saw one of them chug the leftover half of a bottle of whiskey, smash it over the back of his truck (oblivious to the damage he did to the tail light) and scream, "That's how we DO!" Yeah, you have no idea how truthfully you speak, you idiot. And those three kids by two women you had out of wedlock are the ones who suffer the most for it. But "live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse," amiright!? If you don't get the analogy, my cousin is corrupt government, the kids are the people they govern. I'm not in general calling Ecuadorians drunken layabouts. And I'm not saying I specifically know this is the problem. I'm just saying, money is a communication of value, so if you have money problems, you most likely have value problems.

lucb1e 12y ago

> A monetary authority will be established to regulate the money I suppose I should not have been so excited. The title really does read a "virtual" currency and not a cryptography-backed cryptocurrency. This isn't what it sounded like, it's just like Paypal except the government is in charge.

rhino369 12y ago
You can have a cypto currency controlled by a central bank. In fact, we'll probably have them eventually. It would have a lot of the benefits of a cypto, like instantaneous transfer, without the drawbacks like major volatility.

bubbleRefuge 12y ago

My mom is Ecuadorian and I have lots of family there and happen to own property there. Correa is a gr8 president, but coming from the perspective of someone like myself who is well read on the intricacies of modern monetary systems, sticking with the dollar for this long has been one of the few very bad policies. From a political perspective its understandable given Ecuador's history of currency devaluations. This move will very likely permit Ecuador to continue this economic miracle and transformation that has taken place(lifting many out of poverty, etc) . These changes should enable Ecuador to increase GDP , reduce unemployment further, continue to improve public infrastructure, increase standards of living, and become less dependent on exports to drive the economy. Hopefully, this will become a lesson to the entire world wherein electing leaders that are literate about economics and the functioning of the modern monetary system -Correa has U.S. PHD in Economics- , who don't use inapplicable house-hold analogies ( i.e. gov should run like house-hold) to pander to voters ( are you listening EU ? ) can make the kind of strides that policy makers talk about but never achieve. Read 7 Deadly Innocent Frauds of economic policy[1] : 1) Government spending is limited by taxation and borrowing 2) With Government Debts we are leaving our debt burden to our children 3) Government budget deficits take away savings 4) Social Security is broken. 5) The trade deficit is an unsustainable imbalance that takes away jobs and output. 6)We need savings to provide the funds for investment. 7)It’s a bad thing that higher deficits today mean higher taxes tomorrow. [1] From Mosler's book http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf