6 ms·

"I am not trusting Google with my data, because it's in bed with US government too much. Instead, I will trust BaiDu, that's even more in bed with far more opp

"I am not trusting Google with my data, because it's in bed with US government too much. Instead, I will trust BaiDu, that's even more in bed with far more oppresive goverment." I don't know about that.

krapp 12y ago
The people who would follow this argument would likely refuse to concede that there is a government more oppressive than that of the United States. In other words - it's not an appeal to reason, it's an appeal to emotion and nationalism. Or anti-nationalism, as regards the US.
levosmetalo 12y ago
"U.S government can easily send drones to my country to shoot me, or at least force my country to get me extradicted, or their secret service could just take me to Guantanamo without anyone noticing" vs "Yes, Chinese government is much more oppressive than U.S, but they are not likely to share data with my government, or to get me in any way unless I decide to go to China". Heck, even if I were US citizen, I would trust Baidu more. Especially if I were US citizen. If you have to share your data, it's better to share it with someone that can't get you easily, or won't share it further with someone that can.
- bsilvereagle 12y ago
  > that can't get you easily Who's to say that the political geography won't change in the next 50 years? Just because China doesn't have the ability to extradite _today_ doesn't mean they won't in the future.
- hueving 12y ago
  Do you have examples of where people have been extradited from other countries due to NSA collected data? I'm also curious about the drone part. I know they have been used in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq to kill. Have there been cases where they've picked off people in London, etc?
  - krapp 12y ago
    The American government kidnapping people to torture at Gitmo or bombing people's homes into rubble over Google searches isn't something that actually happens. So, it's not something choosing another search engine can reliably protect against.
  - rjsw 12y ago
    It would be hard to prove whether the NSA provided the data but someone [1] was kidnapped in Milan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mustafa_Osama_Nasr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mustafa_Osama_Nasr
  - levosmetalo 12y ago
    There are enough examples of US government / secret services doing exactly this. Have they used NSA and Google data? No evidence, but do you really expect they will have a press release? Until Snowden only loonies "knew" that USA/NSA is spying on regular people at al.
- adventured 12y ago
  In what example is the US Government killing, kidnapping, torturing, or droning citizens of other countries on any meaningful scale basis outside of a few obvious countries like Afghanistan? What does someone in Brazil, or Peru, or Belgium, or Russia, or China, or Spain, or Japan, or Australia etc etc - have to fear from the US Government? Absolutely nothing, even with all the understood spying abuses that have taken place. Most likely 99.999% of the world will never have anything to fear from the US Government. The primary threat is actually economic espionage, from all the major powers. On that field of battle, China is arguably the world's largest threat, they have the most to gain from stealing technology from other countries (Japan, the US, Britain, Germany, Russia, France).
  - waps 12y ago
    That is probably true, but if you read the newspapers you'd think otherwise. The US has a pretty good humanitarian track record, but every little thing gets blown up outside of proportion. And of course, the US has an economic system that the world politically hates. It's not socialist, so it's constantly held up as an example of how bad things can be in Europe. America's economy is huge, very free and not a dictatorship, so every middle eastern country, China, and so on are very afraid of it, making sure that every media available in the country regularly excoriates it. Problem is that the US press picks up on an article from these places on a regular basis and reprints a rewrite of it. Impressions matter more than actual substance. Otherwise China, or for that matter Palestine, would be looked at very differently.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  I'm a US citizen living in china, the Chinese government could seriously mess me up if they wanted to. The US government is a lot more reliable in comparison, though a bit more sinister (in the sense that the Chinese government is obvious in their disregard for rights, the US government is not).
mike-cardwell 12y ago
Depends where you live. Americans have much more to fear from other Americans than they have from the Chinese government. Hell, I'm British and I have more to fear from the US than China. At least my government wont extradite me to China on a whim.
- hueving 12y ago
  That sounds like a problem with your government rather than the US. If they are agreeing to extradite people who haven't committed a serious crime, you should be voting to change that.
  - mike-cardwell 12y ago
    I wasn't blaming the US. The fact remains, the US can do me more damage than China can. If I had to choose between surveilled services in China or surveilled services in the US, I'd go China every time. Same with hardware. I'd rather have bugged Chinese hardware than bugged American hardware. Obviously, I'd rather not have bugged hardware or be using surveilled services in the first place. Also, you can replace "American" with "British" above, and the argument would still apply.
macspoofing 12y ago
An American may look at it that way. A European may look at it that way. Would an African? Would a South American?

krapp 12y ago

The people who would follow this argument would likely refuse to concede that there is a government more oppressive than that of the United States. In other words - it's not an appeal to reason, it's an appeal to emotion and nationalism. Or anti-nationalism, as regards the US.

levosmetalo 12y ago

"U.S government can easily send drones to my country to shoot me, or at least force my country to get me extradicted, or their secret service could just take me to Guantanamo without anyone noticing" vs "Yes, Chinese government is much more oppressive than U.S, but they are not likely to share data with my government, or to get me in any way unless I decide to go to China". Heck, even if I were US citizen, I would trust Baidu more. Especially if I were US citizen. If you have to share your data, it's better to share it with someone that can't get you easily, or won't share it further with someone that can.

bsilvereagle 12y ago
> that can't get you easily Who's to say that the political geography won't change in the next 50 years? Just because China doesn't have the ability to extradite _today_ doesn't mean they won't in the future.
hueving 12y ago
Do you have examples of where people have been extradited from other countries due to NSA collected data? I'm also curious about the drone part. I know they have been used in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq to kill. Have there been cases where they've picked off people in London, etc?
- krapp 12y ago
  The American government kidnapping people to torture at Gitmo or bombing people's homes into rubble over Google searches isn't something that actually happens. So, it's not something choosing another search engine can reliably protect against.
- rjsw 12y ago
  It would be hard to prove whether the NSA provided the data but someone [1] was kidnapped in Milan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mustafa_Osama_Nasr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mustafa_Osama_Nasr
- levosmetalo 12y ago
  There are enough examples of US government / secret services doing exactly this. Have they used NSA and Google data? No evidence, but do you really expect they will have a press release? Until Snowden only loonies "knew" that USA/NSA is spying on regular people at al.
adventured 12y ago
In what example is the US Government killing, kidnapping, torturing, or droning citizens of other countries on any meaningful scale basis outside of a few obvious countries like Afghanistan? What does someone in Brazil, or Peru, or Belgium, or Russia, or China, or Spain, or Japan, or Australia etc etc - have to fear from the US Government? Absolutely nothing, even with all the understood spying abuses that have taken place. Most likely 99.999% of the world will never have anything to fear from the US Government. The primary threat is actually economic espionage, from all the major powers. On that field of battle, China is arguably the world's largest threat, they have the most to gain from stealing technology from other countries (Japan, the US, Britain, Germany, Russia, France).
- waps 12y ago
  That is probably true, but if you read the newspapers you'd think otherwise. The US has a pretty good humanitarian track record, but every little thing gets blown up outside of proportion. And of course, the US has an economic system that the world politically hates. It's not socialist, so it's constantly held up as an example of how bad things can be in Europe. America's economy is huge, very free and not a dictatorship, so every middle eastern country, China, and so on are very afraid of it, making sure that every media available in the country regularly excoriates it. Problem is that the US press picks up on an article from these places on a regular basis and reprints a rewrite of it. Impressions matter more than actual substance. Otherwise China, or for that matter Palestine, would be looked at very differently.
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
I'm a US citizen living in china, the Chinese government could seriously mess me up if they wanted to. The US government is a lot more reliable in comparison, though a bit more sinister (in the sense that the Chinese government is obvious in their disregard for rights, the US government is not).

mike-cardwell 12y ago

Depends where you live. Americans have much more to fear from other Americans than they have from the Chinese government. Hell, I'm British and I have more to fear from the US than China. At least my government wont extradite me to China on a whim.

hueving 12y ago
That sounds like a problem with your government rather than the US. If they are agreeing to extradite people who haven't committed a serious crime, you should be voting to change that.
- mike-cardwell 12y ago
  I wasn't blaming the US. The fact remains, the US can do me more damage than China can. If I had to choose between surveilled services in China or surveilled services in the US, I'd go China every time. Same with hardware. I'd rather have bugged Chinese hardware than bugged American hardware. Obviously, I'd rather not have bugged hardware or be using surveilled services in the first place. Also, you can replace "American" with "British" above, and the argument would still apply.

macspoofing 12y ago

An American may look at it that way. A European may look at it that way. Would an African? Would a South American?