7 ms·

Honeywell Lyric thermostat

35 points by afx2in 12y ago

untothebreach 12y ago
One reason I haven't started adding 'Smart Devices' to my home is that I am not confident that traditional device manufacturers are thinking about security like they should. Case in point, the Belkin WeMo vulnerability[1]. Does the convenience of adding these devices to your home make up for the fact that every one you add is a potential attack vector? 1: http://hackaday.com/2013/01/31/turning-the-belkin-wemo-into-a-deathtrap/ http://hackaday.com/2013/01/31/turning-the-belkin-wemo-into-...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- gr3yh47 12y ago
  Yes. The internet of things is miserable from a security standpoint. The bottom line is even with a security-minded approach, we will always be behind the newest attack vector, and to make matters worse no one really takes a security minded approach. Slightly off-topic, but this is why we shouldn't hook things like the power grid up to the internet. and i personally don't want my fridge, thermostat, and lights to be hackable
- dmethvin 12y ago
  I agree on security, but as a more practical point the market disrupters like Nest aren't thinking about reliability or the risks of DIY installation. I have to think Honeywell weighs that differently since they're not targeting the DIY crowd, at least initially. For example, there were many incidents in January [1] where houses with Nest thermostats malfunctioned in the middle of a serious cold snap. One reason was that the batteries went dead in some thermostats, but normally the battery shouldn't be needed in normal operation when it's wired properly. Guess what, it wasn't wired properly by the homeowner. There should be a built-in diagnosis for that. Another reason was that Nest sent a firmware update to thermostats in early January--in the middle of a cold winter? Where was their risk assessment on that? Maybe there's little risk of frozen pipes in Palo Alto, but it's a major risk in the eastern and midwestern USA. [1] http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/06/nest-4-0-firmware-battery-problems/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/06/nest-4-0-firmware-battery-p...
  - untothebreach 12y ago
    Yea, I live in Michigan so I am definitely glad I did not have to deal with a faulty thermostat on top of everything else the winter threw at us :).
  - mikeash 12y ago
    I'd like to see an analysis of the reliability of the more common type of thermostat in real-world usage. It's possible that Nest really is worse, but I also wouldn't be surprised if regular thermostats failed in stupid ways too.
- chaostheory 12y ago
  On an interesting note, during the last CES Belkin announced that Wemo is going to integrate with appliances such as slow cookers and humidifiers. This is a disaster waiting to happen.
  - danudey 12y ago
    Welcome to Watch Dogs, where everything is online, even your grenades, whether it makes sense or not.
  - untothebreach 12y ago
    In all fairness to Belkin, they did correct their mistake. But still, Belkin is a company that has sold technology products for a while now, and even they couldn't get it right.
    - chaostheory 12y ago
      The problem with Belkin is that they have a history of selling garbage in nice packaging with decent industrial design. Unless something changes drastically in the company's culture, I doubt their product quality will really improve.
      - untothebreach 12y ago
        Good point, one of the first routers I got was a belkin, and I learned quickly that they aren't reliable.
kungfooey 12y ago
As usual, the pricing is opaque. Click "Get Lyric" and it directs me to a list of "certified contractors." > The Lyric Thermostat is currently available exclusively through Honeywell certified contractors. It does say it will be available for self-installation "soon." However, so far this continues the long-standing tradition with HVAC companies.
- joekrill 12y ago
  Apparently they will be $279: http://time.com/2852103/honeywell-nest-thermostats/ http://time.com/2852103/honeywell-nest-thermostats/
  - bratsche 12y ago
    But the front page says average yearly savings of $7. Yikes.
    - tlb 12y ago
      It uses geolocation to give different answers depending on your browser location. Mine says $72 / yr in Woodside, CA.
    - danudey 12y ago
      Mine says $214/yr in Vancouver, BC.
      - kelvie 12y ago
        Same. And it doesn't let me enter in my postal code to check the math (it says Postal Code, but the validator only accepts US zip codes)
    - michaelbuckbee 12y ago
      $92/year - Virginia Beach, VA
post_break 12y ago
As of right now you can only get this through a contractor. Seems like DOA if they keep it that way.
- outside1234 12y ago
  90% of thermostats are installed that way. Its really an enterprise business.
  - rscott 12y ago
    Source? Isn't that only true due to the fact that most people do not change thermostats in homes/apartments/condos they move into, or when they change HVAC systems?
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      I don't think the average populace is generally comfortable doing wiring work.
      - kstrauser 12y ago
        I'm not so sure. For a home DIYer, changing a thermostat is a pretty simple project. I bought a nice programmable unit a few years ago to replace the old mechanical one, and the entire process took maybe 20 minutes. It's along the lines of "attach the red wire to this screw. Attach the black one to this screw. If you have an air conditioner, put the white wire on this screw." It didn't involve any tools beyond a screwdriver and the instructions were dead simple. I wouldn't hesitate to install another replacement unit myself.
        ceejayoz 12y ago
        > For a home DIYer, changing a thermostat is a pretty simple project. That's my point, though. Most people aren't home DIYers. I also had no trouble with my Nest, but most of the people I know probably would have had a local handyman install it.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
brucehart 12y ago
It looks like a poor man's version of a Nest except it costs $50 more and has to be purchased through a contractor. The distinguishing feature that they are touting (the geo-fencing capability) is not something I would even want. I don't want an app on my phone sending constant updates to Honeywell on exactly where I am located. This seems like an established company trying to play catch-up to an unanticipated change in their market and doing a poor job.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- mmccaff 12y ago
  Regarding that last sentence, yes. It's a pretty stark contrast, even, to look at the design of Lyric's website in comparison to the rest of Honeywell's site. I guess there is no harm in trying to disrupt the disrupter, but I don't think that this is going to work for them. Maybe they could have some success against Nest by playing off of some people's privacy concerns around Google.
  - fsckin 12y ago
    A few years ago, I bought an internet module add on for a Honeywell alarm system and was shocked to find that the control UI communicated in plain text with no authentication to the internet module. The module broadcast its address across the entire network every few seconds. At any location that has one of these installed on a weak WiFi network (an unfortunately likely combination), it would be feasible to crack the network and brute force disable the alarm from the outside, disabling the alarm before ever setting foot inside. Let's just say I wont be buying any Honeywell products in the future.
- joshdance 12y ago
  Purchased thru a contractor? No thanks. That is Honeywell defending their old allies to their failure.
flyinghamster 12y ago
One other thing about the "Internet of Things" movement that has really bugged me: all of these Internet-enabled Things tend to rely on (oh, no, there's that word again) the "cloud." I really don't like the idea of my home reporting everything to third parties. If I want access to things on my home LAN, it should be through my own VPN and not a third party.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  Requiring that someone run their own home VPN would restrict your market pretty severely. C'mon. These are mass-market consumer devices.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
Bud 12y ago
What, did Honeywell hire the vaunted Hardware Copying division of Samsung to make this? Couldn't look more like a Nest rip-off if you set out from the start trying to make a Nest rip-off. (Which they likely did.)
- danudey 12y ago
  In fairness, both the Nest and the Lyric look (and work!) like a digital version of Honeywell's 1950's-era thermostat: http://lyric.honeywell.com/Images/thermostats_slides/1950_thermo.png http://lyric.honeywell.com/Images/thermostats_slides/1950_th...
  - blacksmith_tb 12y ago
    So, round thermostat as skeuomorph. I wonder when we'll see a simpler on-the-wall thermostat that still exposes fancy controls and visualizations on a smartphone - seems pointless to me to have essentially the guts of a smartphone along with a touchscreen bolted to my wall when I already have one in my pocket...
kstrauser 12y ago
They sued Nest for allegedly violating patents that Honeywell wasn't using (because they could've owned the Nest market if they'd moved first): http://honeywell.com/News/Pages/Honeywell-Files-Lawsuit-Alleging-Patent-Infringement-By-NestLabs;Follows-Similar-Litigation-Against-Other-Manufacturers.aspx http://honeywell.com/News/Pages/Honeywell-Files-Lawsuit-Alle... No thanks. I don't want to reward that behavior.
- jgalt212 12y ago
  yes, either that or have Google keep tabs on the temperature in your house. Is there a third option here?
  - kstrauser 12y ago
    Well, current "dumb" programmable thermostats aren't exactly awful and don't connect to the Internet in any way. A smart thermostat might be more convenient or slightly more energy efficient, but our third option is "settle for 'pretty good' until the market sorts itself out".
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    > yes, either that or have Google keep tabs on the temperature in your house. I'm okay with this.
    - kstrauser 12y ago
      I'd prefer they not. Nest uses fairly simple principles to make your house comfortable for you, such as working harder to maintain your ideal temperature when you're at home and by predicting when that's likely to be based on past experience. Plotting the difference between inside and outside temperature versus time and looking for the intervals where they're closest together (that is, when Nest isn't working hard to make you comfortable) probably correlates very strongly with whether you're home at those times. You might be comfortable with Google being able to predict when you'll be home. I can imagine a lot of people who wouldn't like that at all.
sscalia 12y ago
I won't buy a NEST after the Google acquisition; nice to see other players entering this space. Laughable how long it took them -- Honeywell should have completely owned this market. Next up for disruption is home security.
- hnnewguy 12y ago
  >Honeywell should have completely owned this market. True, with respect to "smart" thermostats. But Honeywell already owns the thermostat market, and it's much larger than the "smart" thermostat market.
  - kstrauser 12y ago
    ...today. Prior to Nest, there wasn't a "smart" thermostat market. Suddenly, everyone realized that the concept at least is pretty cool and Nest sold like hotcakes. Prior to this release, Honeywell seemed to be playing Blackberry to Nest's iPhone: "we own the serious market. Only kids and geeks would want a 'smart' ${device}". And then suddenly one day everybody wanted one, and the incumbents were blindsided to realize that they didn't understand their market as well as they'd thought. There's no reason at all that Honeywell shouldn't dominate the smart thermostat market, other than that they couldn't be bothered to. In a couple of years when no homeowner is going to want to buy a new house with a "dumb" thermostat, they'll need to have something attractive in that space. I bet more is riding on the success of this release than you'd think.
  - autokad 12y ago
    not sure the 'smart' thermostat market will grow huge in a reasonable time frame. 'save' money by buying a 250-400$ (+ installation) thermostat when a normal one costs around 40$. This works for some people/situations, but I'd rather just turn the heat down before I go out the door. On top of it all, your thermostat can now be used against you in a court of law, and who knows what companies will do with this information.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      It'll be interesting to see what happens with power companies and rebates for cooperative thermostats.
ddrmaxgt37 12y ago
"The next generation of smart technology from the company that invented The Round thermostat." Wow
jwildeboer 12y ago
Best part: "The Lyric Thermostat is currently available exclusively through Honeywell certified contractors." No, you cannot install this yourself. #facepalm
carlob 12y ago
Eww. This website could be the poster child of whatever is wrong with today's web design trends. It looks terrible unless you're in full screen. It breaks scrolling. Fonts are some unreadable superthin sans-serif. Flat drawings of real stuff that are hard to understand and take over the foreground.
- Raphmedia 12y ago
  It's really horrible. White text on white images, blue text on blue images. Buttons that don't work. Element with a z-index that goes over the navigation while some of the rest doesn't. Urgh.

35 points by afx2in 12y ago

One reason I haven't started adding 'Smart Devices' to my home is that I am not confident that traditional device manufacturers are thinking about security like they should. Case in point, the Belkin WeMo vulnerability[1]. Does the convenience of adding these devices to your home make up for the fact that every one you add is a potential attack vector? 1: http://hackaday.com/2013/01/31/turning-the-belkin-wemo-into-a-deathtrap/ http://hackaday.com/2013/01/31/turning-the-belkin-wemo-into-...

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
gr3yh47 12y ago
Yes. The internet of things is miserable from a security standpoint. The bottom line is even with a security-minded approach, we will always be behind the newest attack vector, and to make matters worse no one really takes a security minded approach. Slightly off-topic, but this is why we shouldn't hook things like the power grid up to the internet. and i personally don't want my fridge, thermostat, and lights to be hackable
dmethvin 12y ago
I agree on security, but as a more practical point the market disrupters like Nest aren't thinking about reliability or the risks of DIY installation. I have to think Honeywell weighs that differently since they're not targeting the DIY crowd, at least initially. For example, there were many incidents in January [1] where houses with Nest thermostats malfunctioned in the middle of a serious cold snap. One reason was that the batteries went dead in some thermostats, but normally the battery shouldn't be needed in normal operation when it's wired properly. Guess what, it wasn't wired properly by the homeowner. There should be a built-in diagnosis for that. Another reason was that Nest sent a firmware update to thermostats in early January--in the middle of a cold winter? Where was their risk assessment on that? Maybe there's little risk of frozen pipes in Palo Alto, but it's a major risk in the eastern and midwestern USA. [1] http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/06/nest-4-0-firmware-battery-problems/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/06/nest-4-0-firmware-battery-p...
- untothebreach 12y ago
  Yea, I live in Michigan so I am definitely glad I did not have to deal with a faulty thermostat on top of everything else the winter threw at us :).
- mikeash 12y ago
  I'd like to see an analysis of the reliability of the more common type of thermostat in real-world usage. It's possible that Nest really is worse, but I also wouldn't be surprised if regular thermostats failed in stupid ways too.
chaostheory 12y ago
On an interesting note, during the last CES Belkin announced that Wemo is going to integrate with appliances such as slow cookers and humidifiers. This is a disaster waiting to happen.
- danudey 12y ago
  Welcome to Watch Dogs, where everything is online, even your grenades, whether it makes sense or not.
- untothebreach 12y ago
  In all fairness to Belkin, they did correct their mistake. But still, Belkin is a company that has sold technology products for a while now, and even they couldn't get it right.
  - chaostheory 12y ago
    The problem with Belkin is that they have a history of selling garbage in nice packaging with decent industrial design. Unless something changes drastically in the company's culture, I doubt their product quality will really improve.
    - untothebreach 12y ago
      Good point, one of the first routers I got was a belkin, and I learned quickly that they aren't reliable.

kungfooey 12y ago

As usual, the pricing is opaque. Click "Get Lyric" and it directs me to a list of "certified contractors." > The Lyric Thermostat is currently available exclusively through Honeywell certified contractors. It does say it will be available for self-installation "soon." However, so far this continues the long-standing tradition with HVAC companies.

joekrill 12y ago
Apparently they will be $279: http://time.com/2852103/honeywell-nest-thermostats/ http://time.com/2852103/honeywell-nest-thermostats/
- bratsche 12y ago
  But the front page says average yearly savings of $7. Yikes.
  - tlb 12y ago
    It uses geolocation to give different answers depending on your browser location. Mine says $72 / yr in Woodside, CA.
  - danudey 12y ago
    Mine says $214/yr in Vancouver, BC.
    - kelvie 12y ago
      Same. And it doesn't let me enter in my postal code to check the math (it says Postal Code, but the validator only accepts US zip codes)
  - michaelbuckbee 12y ago
    $92/year - Virginia Beach, VA

post_break 12y ago

As of right now you can only get this through a contractor. Seems like DOA if they keep it that way.

outside1234 12y ago
90% of thermostats are installed that way. Its really an enterprise business.
- rscott 12y ago
  Source? Isn't that only true due to the fact that most people do not change thermostats in homes/apartments/condos they move into, or when they change HVAC systems?
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    I don't think the average populace is generally comfortable doing wiring work.
    - kstrauser 12y ago
      I'm not so sure. For a home DIYer, changing a thermostat is a pretty simple project. I bought a nice programmable unit a few years ago to replace the old mechanical one, and the entire process took maybe 20 minutes. It's along the lines of "attach the red wire to this screw. Attach the black one to this screw. If you have an air conditioner, put the white wire on this screw." It didn't involve any tools beyond a screwdriver and the instructions were dead simple. I wouldn't hesitate to install another replacement unit myself.
      - ceejayoz 12y ago
        > For a home DIYer, changing a thermostat is a pretty simple project. That's my point, though. Most people aren't home DIYers. I also had no trouble with my Nest, but most of the people I know probably would have had a local handyman install it.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

brucehart 12y ago

It looks like a poor man's version of a Nest except it costs $50 more and has to be purchased through a contractor. The distinguishing feature that they are touting (the geo-fencing capability) is not something I would even want. I don't want an app on my phone sending constant updates to Honeywell on exactly where I am located. This seems like an established company trying to play catch-up to an unanticipated change in their market and doing a poor job.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
mmccaff 12y ago
Regarding that last sentence, yes. It's a pretty stark contrast, even, to look at the design of Lyric's website in comparison to the rest of Honeywell's site. I guess there is no harm in trying to disrupt the disrupter, but I don't think that this is going to work for them. Maybe they could have some success against Nest by playing off of some people's privacy concerns around Google.
- fsckin 12y ago
  A few years ago, I bought an internet module add on for a Honeywell alarm system and was shocked to find that the control UI communicated in plain text with no authentication to the internet module. The module broadcast its address across the entire network every few seconds. At any location that has one of these installed on a weak WiFi network (an unfortunately likely combination), it would be feasible to crack the network and brute force disable the alarm from the outside, disabling the alarm before ever setting foot inside. Let's just say I wont be buying any Honeywell products in the future.
joshdance 12y ago
Purchased thru a contractor? No thanks. That is Honeywell defending their old allies to their failure.

flyinghamster 12y ago

One other thing about the "Internet of Things" movement that has really bugged me: all of these Internet-enabled Things tend to rely on (oh, no, there's that word again) the "cloud." I really don't like the idea of my home reporting everything to third parties. If I want access to things on my home LAN, it should be through my own VPN and not a third party.

ceejayoz 12y ago
Requiring that someone run their own home VPN would restrict your market pretty severely. C'mon. These are mass-market consumer devices.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

Bud 12y ago

What, did Honeywell hire the vaunted Hardware Copying division of Samsung to make this? Couldn't look more like a Nest rip-off if you set out from the start trying to make a Nest rip-off. (Which they likely did.)

danudey 12y ago
In fairness, both the Nest and the Lyric look (and work!) like a digital version of Honeywell's 1950's-era thermostat: http://lyric.honeywell.com/Images/thermostats_slides/1950_thermo.png http://lyric.honeywell.com/Images/thermostats_slides/1950_th...
- blacksmith_tb 12y ago
  So, round thermostat as skeuomorph. I wonder when we'll see a simpler on-the-wall thermostat that still exposes fancy controls and visualizations on a smartphone - seems pointless to me to have essentially the guts of a smartphone along with a touchscreen bolted to my wall when I already have one in my pocket...

kstrauser 12y ago

They sued Nest for allegedly violating patents that Honeywell wasn't using (because they could've owned the Nest market if they'd moved first): http://honeywell.com/News/Pages/Honeywell-Files-Lawsuit-Alleging-Patent-Infringement-By-NestLabs;Follows-Similar-Litigation-Against-Other-Manufacturers.aspx http://honeywell.com/News/Pages/Honeywell-Files-Lawsuit-Alle... No thanks. I don't want to reward that behavior.

jgalt212 12y ago
yes, either that or have Google keep tabs on the temperature in your house. Is there a third option here?
- kstrauser 12y ago
  Well, current "dumb" programmable thermostats aren't exactly awful and don't connect to the Internet in any way. A smart thermostat might be more convenient or slightly more energy efficient, but our third option is "settle for 'pretty good' until the market sorts itself out".
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  > yes, either that or have Google keep tabs on the temperature in your house. I'm okay with this.
  - kstrauser 12y ago
    I'd prefer they not. Nest uses fairly simple principles to make your house comfortable for you, such as working harder to maintain your ideal temperature when you're at home and by predicting when that's likely to be based on past experience. Plotting the difference between inside and outside temperature versus time and looking for the intervals where they're closest together (that is, when Nest isn't working hard to make you comfortable) probably correlates very strongly with whether you're home at those times. You might be comfortable with Google being able to predict when you'll be home. I can imagine a lot of people who wouldn't like that at all.

sscalia 12y ago

I won't buy a NEST after the Google acquisition; nice to see other players entering this space. Laughable how long it took them -- Honeywell should have completely owned this market. Next up for disruption is home security.

hnnewguy 12y ago
>Honeywell should have completely owned this market. True, with respect to "smart" thermostats. But Honeywell already owns the thermostat market, and it's much larger than the "smart" thermostat market.
- kstrauser 12y ago
  ...today. Prior to Nest, there wasn't a "smart" thermostat market. Suddenly, everyone realized that the concept at least is pretty cool and Nest sold like hotcakes. Prior to this release, Honeywell seemed to be playing Blackberry to Nest's iPhone: "we own the serious market. Only kids and geeks would want a 'smart' ${device}". And then suddenly one day everybody wanted one, and the incumbents were blindsided to realize that they didn't understand their market as well as they'd thought. There's no reason at all that Honeywell shouldn't dominate the smart thermostat market, other than that they couldn't be bothered to. In a couple of years when no homeowner is going to want to buy a new house with a "dumb" thermostat, they'll need to have something attractive in that space. I bet more is riding on the success of this release than you'd think.
- autokad 12y ago
  not sure the 'smart' thermostat market will grow huge in a reasonable time frame. 'save' money by buying a 250-400$ (+ installation) thermostat when a normal one costs around 40$. This works for some people/situations, but I'd rather just turn the heat down before I go out the door. On top of it all, your thermostat can now be used against you in a court of law, and who knows what companies will do with this information.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    It'll be interesting to see what happens with power companies and rebates for cooperative thermostats.

ddrmaxgt37 12y ago

"The next generation of smart technology from the company that invented The Round thermostat." Wow

jwildeboer 12y ago

Best part: "The Lyric Thermostat is currently available exclusively through Honeywell certified contractors." No, you cannot install this yourself. #facepalm

carlob 12y ago

Eww. This website could be the poster child of whatever is wrong with today's web design trends. It looks terrible unless you're in full screen. It breaks scrolling. Fonts are some unreadable superthin sans-serif. Flat drawings of real stuff that are hard to understand and take over the foreground.

Raphmedia 12y ago
It's really horrible. White text on white images, blue text on blue images. Buttons that don't work. Element with a z-index that goes over the navigation while some of the rest doesn't. Urgh.