6 ms·

Too little, too late (imo). I'll think about it again once they have visual studio and all the good things running on *.nix. It's too much of a pain to get an

Too little, too late (imo). I'll think about it again once they have visual studio and all the good things running on *.nix. It's too much of a pain to get anything to work with a .net project, and then deploy on anything other than IIS.

camus2 12y ago
it's not even about visual studio. It's about the fact that the whole .net framework is not opensource,thus forcing you to run windows server anyway.
- UK-AL 12y ago
  They've committed to working with mono to getting working well on there.
- brainling 12y ago
  This entire version of ASP.NET is specifically about modularizing the stack and breaking it's dependence on IIS so it will work well with Mono + Apache and Nginx. That's quite literally why this version is being written, as aside from MVC, ASP.NET as an IIS interface technology has been feature complete for years and wasn't in line for any major changes.
  - itsboring 12y ago
    As a person who likes C# and MVC but doesn't like Windows, I've hoped for this for a long time. The fact that Microsoft is going to include mono in their tests is awesome. It's like a genie granted me a wish.
hudo 12y ago
Too little? Biggest change for ASP.NET from release of ASP.NET! "Too much of pain" was the first (and last) thing I said when trying to configure ruby on ubuntu. Or tried to download some app and run it.
- gretful 12y ago
  same thing I said when trying to convert to .Net. Ruby on Ubuntu? easy peasy.
- hockeybias 12y ago
  Hear, hear!
- lucidquiet 12y ago
  I guess all those thousands of Rails apps running on Ubuntu had some kind of magic or secret knowledge to get that working. Going open source and posting some libs on Github is 'Huge'? That's kind of funny considering how much is out there, top notch, and did it way before MS did, and yet, it wasn't "huge" for them.
  - jf22 12y ago
    Its huge because MS has never embraced open source like they are now. Flying cars would be pretty huge even though planes have already been flying for a while...
- mkaziz 12y ago
  I think Hudo's point is that experience with technologies is subjective. I loathe Windows after having been comfortable in terminal, and I loathe Eclipse after having been comfortable in VS.
  - lucidquiet 12y ago
    I've gotten apps working on .net and ubuntu -- configuration was a drag in both, but it works, and isn't the entire basis for loving or hating a platform. So what I'm saying is I agree with your comment. The catch here (and point) is why should you have to switch from VS at all? If it's a real source code editor shouldn't it handle Java, Clojure, Haskell, Python, Ruby, JavaScript, etc all just fine? Some of the oldest and free editors do and do it well. I realize MS has an agenda (perhaps) or they've de-prioritized any of these features into oblivion -- but who are they serving, I certainly didn't feel it was me even after giving them a lot of $ for VS.
justathrow2k 12y ago
This just in, people who aren't impressed by the .NET stack still aren't and continue to not use it.
- jbigelow76 12y ago
  I don't think some of them even use their preferred development stacks, they are too busy telling you how they don't use .NET.
  - UweSchmidt 12y ago
    "I'm a vegan, I do crossfit, I don't own a TV. Oh and I don't use .NET"
bigdubs 12y ago
ASP.net vNext was specifically about this. And you don't need VS to do .net development; check out monodevelop or xamarin studio (they're the same basic thing)
weego 12y ago
I don't understand the thinking behind phrases like "too little, too late" about a company whose tooling will likely span the entire careers of a number of generations of developers.
- duiker101 12y ago
  because some people just like to complain and hate.
- dev360 12y ago
  I say that a lot and I feel like .NET is loosing relevance. Embracing open source and making Linux a first-class citizen in the eco system would be the only way for .NET to increase adoption or stay technologically relevant, and unfortunately its happening too slow.
  - justathrow2k 12y ago
    Too slow for what? Are you suggesting that .NET technology is traveling on a steady path towards becoming irrelevant?
    - dev360 12y ago
      Yes. Most users of .NET is in the enterprise (as opposed to tech and startups) and Java has positioned itself as the go-to platform for big data analytics and processing. I think this comes down to clinging to an antiquated product model. A lot of the technologies that are seeing rapid adoption are open source and driven by transparent communities. In some cases companies back them (e.g. cloudera, datastax, 10gen, typesafe).
      - soAsian 12y ago
        >Yes. Most users of .NET is in the enterprise (as opposed to tech and startups) what do you mean by tech? startups is too cool to associate themselves with Microsoft. >Java has positioned itself as the go-to platform for big data analytics and processing. F# >I think this comes down to clinging to an antiquated product model. .Net have always been a product aiming at LOB market. It is a replacement for VB6. > A lot of the technologies that are seeing rapid adoption are open source and driven by transparent communities. Oh yes, RoR is everywhere in corporate America and around the world. Node.js is what everyone is using for LOB.
brainling 12y ago
Visual Studio a) will never run on Unix, and b) is not required to do .NET development. I know people who do their .NET work in Sublime Text with a nant build chain. It's not my preferred method, but it works great for them. Hell, I know a guy that uses ASP.NET to host an Angular app, and to unify his build system, he has Grunt pick up the heavy lifting of running his MSBuild files whenever he does the pre-deploy steps for his JavaScript. If you think you need Visual Studio to do .NET development, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the technologies at play and just wanted to say something provocative and witty.
- lucidquiet 12y ago
  The only reason I bring up Visual Studio is because most people don't even see the world out side of that IDE. "If it's not MS and it's not possible inside of Visual Studio it doesn't exist." That's how a whole lot of .NET developers, and .NET houses work -- and so that leads to my comment on VS.
- eropple 12y ago
  > If you think you need Visual Studio to do .NET development, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the technologies at play and just wanted to say something provocative and witty. On the off chance you're not just being knee-jerk and defensive because Something You Like is under fire--people think that VS is necessary because life is way too short to spend building something half as good as the other options in twice the time. I mean, could write Scala in TextMate, too, if I had the jones for it. But I could also not, and use IntelliJ, because I value having tools that are able to improve my productivity. (And decrease my frustration; by sticking with the JVM I have the benefit of not have to rely on Mono, whose GC, from experience, I do not trust in long-running processes; after spending a year owning a trivial Mono ASP.NET app that presented no end of troubles, I am very happy not needing to have a watchdog ready to kick it over when it undergoes its daily spaz-out.) Xamarin Studio is not an acceptable product, either. I've been trying to use it for a couple weeks now and about ready to pitch a computer out a window--the basic functions of editing code are magnificently broken and have been for a long time. Random phantom line breaks in the editor that aren't in the code file, bad auto-indenting, phantom error highlighting, no partial-build error solving--and Visual Studio doesn't work on OS X. (To say nothing of the "you have to restart because XS forgot how to talk to xbuild" bugs...) That leaves the shitty bodges you well-actually'd your way into or not doing .NET at all. The latter makes a lot more sense for a lot more people. I really enjoy C# and F# and I'd love to use .NET more if the frustrations in using it on not-Windows were not of such a magnitude. I am critical because it should be better and isn't. (Worse, Xamarin removed most reasons to contribute to the Mono ecosystem a while ago by making so much of the useful bits commercial, which is understandable--gotta eat--but also unfortunate.)
romanovcode 12y ago
And what is impressive? Still rocking that LAMP stack, mate?
- lucidquiet 12y ago
  Nope, I'm not a fan of Php either actually. Mostly I rock the Java, Node, Clojure, Scala, *nix (mac), C++11 on Ubuntu and Mac with JS+Angular. I guess that's the stack mate.
breischl 12y ago
I believe one of the big changes in ASP.NET vNext is the ability to deploy outside of IIS. Other types of projects, notably WebAPI, have been able to easily deploy outside of IIS for years. I actually just converted two WebAPI projects to self-hosting. It took about a day, which is not bad considering that includes time to learn what I was doing and reworking an existing deployment process.
bdcravens 12y ago
There's definitely some places where this may be true, but there's a lot of locations and industries where .NET is firmly planted and not going anywhere anytime soon. For instance, Houston and the oil industry here (not just the big companies like Exxon, but the massive ecosystem surrounding petroleum). It may not be about winning new industries, but gaining the benefits of open source where they already are.
nivla 12y ago
When company X that the hivemind dislikes makes it to the news, they are often criticized with not open sourcing their product Y. When they finally open source it, they are met with "Too late!". Sometimes there is no winning with people who have already made up their mind. >Too little Really? Its MS, their core products and the open source we are talking about. Heck they even open sourced it under a liberal license.

camus2 12y ago

it's not even about visual studio. It's about the fact that the whole .net framework is not opensource,thus forcing you to run windows server anyway.

UK-AL 12y ago
They've committed to working with mono to getting working well on there.
brainling 12y ago
This entire version of ASP.NET is specifically about modularizing the stack and breaking it's dependence on IIS so it will work well with Mono + Apache and Nginx. That's quite literally why this version is being written, as aside from MVC, ASP.NET as an IIS interface technology has been feature complete for years and wasn't in line for any major changes.
- itsboring 12y ago
  As a person who likes C# and MVC but doesn't like Windows, I've hoped for this for a long time. The fact that Microsoft is going to include mono in their tests is awesome. It's like a genie granted me a wish.

hudo 12y ago

Too little? Biggest change for ASP.NET from release of ASP.NET! "Too much of pain" was the first (and last) thing I said when trying to configure ruby on ubuntu. Or tried to download some app and run it.

gretful 12y ago
same thing I said when trying to convert to .Net. Ruby on Ubuntu? easy peasy.
hockeybias 12y ago
Hear, hear!
lucidquiet 12y ago
I guess all those thousands of Rails apps running on Ubuntu had some kind of magic or secret knowledge to get that working. Going open source and posting some libs on Github is 'Huge'? That's kind of funny considering how much is out there, top notch, and did it way before MS did, and yet, it wasn't "huge" for them.
- jf22 12y ago
  Its huge because MS has never embraced open source like they are now. Flying cars would be pretty huge even though planes have already been flying for a while...
mkaziz 12y ago
I think Hudo's point is that experience with technologies is subjective. I loathe Windows after having been comfortable in terminal, and I loathe Eclipse after having been comfortable in VS.
- lucidquiet 12y ago
  I've gotten apps working on .net and ubuntu -- configuration was a drag in both, but it works, and isn't the entire basis for loving or hating a platform. So what I'm saying is I agree with your comment. The catch here (and point) is why should you have to switch from VS at all? If it's a real source code editor shouldn't it handle Java, Clojure, Haskell, Python, Ruby, JavaScript, etc all just fine? Some of the oldest and free editors do and do it well. I realize MS has an agenda (perhaps) or they've de-prioritized any of these features into oblivion -- but who are they serving, I certainly didn't feel it was me even after giving them a lot of $ for VS.

justathrow2k 12y ago

This just in, people who aren't impressed by the .NET stack still aren't and continue to not use it.

jbigelow76 12y ago
I don't think some of them even use their preferred development stacks, they are too busy telling you how they don't use .NET.
- UweSchmidt 12y ago
  "I'm a vegan, I do crossfit, I don't own a TV. Oh and I don't use .NET"

bigdubs 12y ago

ASP.net vNext was specifically about this. And you don't need VS to do .net development; check out monodevelop or xamarin studio (they're the same basic thing)

weego 12y ago

I don't understand the thinking behind phrases like "too little, too late" about a company whose tooling will likely span the entire careers of a number of generations of developers.

duiker101 12y ago
because some people just like to complain and hate.
dev360 12y ago
I say that a lot and I feel like .NET is loosing relevance. Embracing open source and making Linux a first-class citizen in the eco system would be the only way for .NET to increase adoption or stay technologically relevant, and unfortunately its happening too slow.
- justathrow2k 12y ago
  Too slow for what? Are you suggesting that .NET technology is traveling on a steady path towards becoming irrelevant?
  - dev360 12y ago
    Yes. Most users of .NET is in the enterprise (as opposed to tech and startups) and Java has positioned itself as the go-to platform for big data analytics and processing. I think this comes down to clinging to an antiquated product model. A lot of the technologies that are seeing rapid adoption are open source and driven by transparent communities. In some cases companies back them (e.g. cloudera, datastax, 10gen, typesafe).
    - soAsian 12y ago
      >Yes. Most users of .NET is in the enterprise (as opposed to tech and startups) what do you mean by tech? startups is too cool to associate themselves with Microsoft. >Java has positioned itself as the go-to platform for big data analytics and processing. F# >I think this comes down to clinging to an antiquated product model. .Net have always been a product aiming at LOB market. It is a replacement for VB6. > A lot of the technologies that are seeing rapid adoption are open source and driven by transparent communities. Oh yes, RoR is everywhere in corporate America and around the world. Node.js is what everyone is using for LOB.

brainling 12y ago

Visual Studio a) will never run on Unix, and b) is not required to do .NET development. I know people who do their .NET work in Sublime Text with a nant build chain. It's not my preferred method, but it works great for them. Hell, I know a guy that uses ASP.NET to host an Angular app, and to unify his build system, he has Grunt pick up the heavy lifting of running his MSBuild files whenever he does the pre-deploy steps for his JavaScript. If you think you need Visual Studio to do .NET development, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the technologies at play and just wanted to say something provocative and witty.

lucidquiet 12y ago
The only reason I bring up Visual Studio is because most people don't even see the world out side of that IDE. "If it's not MS and it's not possible inside of Visual Studio it doesn't exist." That's how a whole lot of .NET developers, and .NET houses work -- and so that leads to my comment on VS.
eropple 12y ago
> If you think you need Visual Studio to do .NET development, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the technologies at play and just wanted to say something provocative and witty. On the off chance you're not just being knee-jerk and defensive because Something You Like is under fire--people think that VS is necessary because life is way too short to spend building something half as good as the other options in twice the time. I mean, could write Scala in TextMate, too, if I had the jones for it. But I could also not, and use IntelliJ, because I value having tools that are able to improve my productivity. (And decrease my frustration; by sticking with the JVM I have the benefit of not have to rely on Mono, whose GC, from experience, I do not trust in long-running processes; after spending a year owning a trivial Mono ASP.NET app that presented no end of troubles, I am very happy not needing to have a watchdog ready to kick it over when it undergoes its daily spaz-out.) Xamarin Studio is not an acceptable product, either. I've been trying to use it for a couple weeks now and about ready to pitch a computer out a window--the basic functions of editing code are magnificently broken and have been for a long time. Random phantom line breaks in the editor that aren't in the code file, bad auto-indenting, phantom error highlighting, no partial-build error solving--and Visual Studio doesn't work on OS X. (To say nothing of the "you have to restart because XS forgot how to talk to xbuild" bugs...) That leaves the shitty bodges you well-actually'd your way into or not doing .NET at all. The latter makes a lot more sense for a lot more people. I really enjoy C# and F# and I'd love to use .NET more if the frustrations in using it on not-Windows were not of such a magnitude. I am critical because it should be better and isn't. (Worse, Xamarin removed most reasons to contribute to the Mono ecosystem a while ago by making so much of the useful bits commercial, which is understandable--gotta eat--but also unfortunate.)

romanovcode 12y ago

And what is impressive? Still rocking that LAMP stack, mate?

lucidquiet 12y ago
Nope, I'm not a fan of Php either actually. Mostly I rock the Java, Node, Clojure, Scala, *nix (mac), C++11 on Ubuntu and Mac with JS+Angular. I guess that's the stack mate.

breischl 12y ago

I believe one of the big changes in ASP.NET vNext is the ability to deploy outside of IIS. Other types of projects, notably WebAPI, have been able to easily deploy outside of IIS for years. I actually just converted two WebAPI projects to self-hosting. It took about a day, which is not bad considering that includes time to learn what I was doing and reworking an existing deployment process.

bdcravens 12y ago

There's definitely some places where this may be true, but there's a lot of locations and industries where .NET is firmly planted and not going anywhere anytime soon. For instance, Houston and the oil industry here (not just the big companies like Exxon, but the massive ecosystem surrounding petroleum). It may not be about winning new industries, but gaining the benefits of open source where they already are.

nivla 12y ago

When company X that the hivemind dislikes makes it to the news, they are often criticized with not open sourcing their product Y. When they finally open source it, they are met with "Too late!". Sometimes there is no winning with people who have already made up their mind. >Too little Really? Its MS, their core products and the open source we are talking about. Heck they even open sourced it under a liberal license.