7 ms·

Just be careful down the line. Those costs you are talking about are still there, they are only delayed because of BizSpark. Having BizSpark did wonders to the

by nyrina 12y ago

Just be careful down the line. Those costs you are talking about are still there, they are only delayed because of BizSpark. Having BizSpark did wonders to the company I'm in, but when the 3 years ended, there was a lot of hard work and even more tears because of it. BizSpark's entire reason for existence is to lock you into Microsoft products, especially their SQL server.

ryanjshaw 12y ago
What were the problems you encountered? As a potential BizSpark user my impression was that: - after 3 years I get to keep using the licenses I acquired, leaving only hosting costs to be concerned about - if I don't have enough capital/revenue to cover my hosting costs at that point it's highly likely my business is not worthwhile pursuing further anyway - for my particular solution I don't envision needing much server power (and what's provided is pretty powerful) so additional licensing costs are not a problem (I can see this being an issue for other businesses)
- scoj 12y ago
  You're right on. I am using Bizspark. The software you get is free to keep. When you start out it feels like hosting costs are expensive. But if you are making money (and money is the validator in my opinion) then it becomes negligible. I thought about learning a new language when I started, but figured the time would be better spent learning the language/skills of sales and marketing. (My day job at a small profitable startup and my side SaaS product are both .net
- avenger123 12y ago
  The problem is that there is always going to be a new Windows Server release, plus a new SQL Server release. Even if you keep your licenses, are you going to stay on that version for the lifespan of the system? Likely not. Then you start to pay. For the database, the OS plus SQL Server Standard is still going to be around $15K (this was around 4-5 years ago when I was involved with this). Now this is just one instance. Multiple that by multiple servers and instances and you will reach upwards of 6 figures for your costs. I guess the numbers work out differently for cloud but I don't imagine they would be that far off. For example, if my Azure costs are $10K a month, from that cost is likely $2K-$3K the Microsoft tax. Keep scaling your VMs and servers and that margin starts to look a bit less palatable. If you know the limits of your business, then it's probably not an issue. I think the sweet spot would be to use Postgresql for the database and Microsoft for the rest, as most of the cost is SQL Server for systems that aren't in the full Microsoft eco-system (BizTalk, SharePoint,etc.)
  - ktavera 12y ago
    Licensing costs are not really an issue when you're on Azure. If your app ran fine under the BizSpark program subsidy of $150/month of azure credit then when you're out of the program you'd just have to pick up the $150/month hosting cost, not suddenly have to pay $15k+ for a MSSQL or Windows Server license.
    - avenger123 12y ago
      I know that. I didn't make it explicit in my comment. The Microsoft tax I mentioned with Azure is the licensing costs. Microsoft isn't just going to give out SQL Server for free and just charge for the VMs and bandwidth. There is premium pricing for SQL Server and BizTalk and custom licensing pricing for SharePoint and Oracle software. Being on Azure doesn't mean you get a break on the licensing costs. They just amortize the cost over the hour the VM is up. EDIT: Fair point on the hosting cost being known and acceptable right from the start. I also don't mean to imply that you are not aware of the licensing costs, just wanted to make it clear. For real businesses, at some point it makes more sense to build their own "private cloud" and at this point these issues become relevant but for most start-ups, it's likely just not going to be an issue.
      - pistle 12y ago
        While SQL Server has and will continue to be an excellent technical option, the costs can be a drag. That said, the work various .net-related people have out or are working on have the very real availability or promise to lift that dependency, if not provide portability, with DB choice. See RavenDB (document DB) & biggy (Postgres 1st class). Supporting this for more traditional takes on relational store is that there is increasing experience in the .net world for applying coding patterns that can help projects pivot/abstract out the data tool dependencies. If you have a sensitivity in this area, there are options which, when calculated with the ancillary benefits of applying existing .net experience and the great MS free + cloud tools, would pan out very well for many problem spaces. Obviously, YMMV, but if you are doing a wide spectrum of cloud + mobile, Azure is very compelling and Xamarin can become nearly as large a burden cost-wise. That total burden still can be extremely competitive and the ramp for existing .net shops a pretty clear winner. But being a C# developer has never been so promising - and it wasn't ever that awful to begin with. If anything, the problem of coming from the old MS-dev platform-planning and having to understand the range of options and optimizing for costs around those is the weak spot.
- NicoJuicy 12y ago
  If you are an MSDN subscriber, you also get discounts on the Azure cloud for testing and dev porposes http://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/member-offers/msdn-benefits-details/ http://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/member-offers/msdn-... TLDR? 33% on VM's, 25% on cloud and then according your MSDN subscription 40 - 115 €/ month.

by nyrina 12y ago

ryanjshaw 12y ago

What were the problems you encountered? As a potential BizSpark user my impression was that: - after 3 years I get to keep using the licenses I acquired, leaving only hosting costs to be concerned about - if I don't have enough capital/revenue to cover my hosting costs at that point it's highly likely my business is not worthwhile pursuing further anyway - for my particular solution I don't envision needing much server power (and what's provided is pretty powerful) so additional licensing costs are not a problem (I can see this being an issue for other businesses)

scoj 12y ago
You're right on. I am using Bizspark. The software you get is free to keep. When you start out it feels like hosting costs are expensive. But if you are making money (and money is the validator in my opinion) then it becomes negligible. I thought about learning a new language when I started, but figured the time would be better spent learning the language/skills of sales and marketing. (My day job at a small profitable startup and my side SaaS product are both .net
avenger123 12y ago
The problem is that there is always going to be a new Windows Server release, plus a new SQL Server release. Even if you keep your licenses, are you going to stay on that version for the lifespan of the system? Likely not. Then you start to pay. For the database, the OS plus SQL Server Standard is still going to be around $15K (this was around 4-5 years ago when I was involved with this). Now this is just one instance. Multiple that by multiple servers and instances and you will reach upwards of 6 figures for your costs. I guess the numbers work out differently for cloud but I don't imagine they would be that far off. For example, if my Azure costs are $10K a month, from that cost is likely $2K-$3K the Microsoft tax. Keep scaling your VMs and servers and that margin starts to look a bit less palatable. If you know the limits of your business, then it's probably not an issue. I think the sweet spot would be to use Postgresql for the database and Microsoft for the rest, as most of the cost is SQL Server for systems that aren't in the full Microsoft eco-system (BizTalk, SharePoint,etc.)
- ktavera 12y ago
  Licensing costs are not really an issue when you're on Azure. If your app ran fine under the BizSpark program subsidy of $150/month of azure credit then when you're out of the program you'd just have to pick up the $150/month hosting cost, not suddenly have to pay $15k+ for a MSSQL or Windows Server license.
  - avenger123 12y ago
    I know that. I didn't make it explicit in my comment. The Microsoft tax I mentioned with Azure is the licensing costs. Microsoft isn't just going to give out SQL Server for free and just charge for the VMs and bandwidth. There is premium pricing for SQL Server and BizTalk and custom licensing pricing for SharePoint and Oracle software. Being on Azure doesn't mean you get a break on the licensing costs. They just amortize the cost over the hour the VM is up. EDIT: Fair point on the hosting cost being known and acceptable right from the start. I also don't mean to imply that you are not aware of the licensing costs, just wanted to make it clear. For real businesses, at some point it makes more sense to build their own "private cloud" and at this point these issues become relevant but for most start-ups, it's likely just not going to be an issue.
    - pistle 12y ago
      While SQL Server has and will continue to be an excellent technical option, the costs can be a drag. That said, the work various .net-related people have out or are working on have the very real availability or promise to lift that dependency, if not provide portability, with DB choice. See RavenDB (document DB) & biggy (Postgres 1st class). Supporting this for more traditional takes on relational store is that there is increasing experience in the .net world for applying coding patterns that can help projects pivot/abstract out the data tool dependencies. If you have a sensitivity in this area, there are options which, when calculated with the ancillary benefits of applying existing .net experience and the great MS free + cloud tools, would pan out very well for many problem spaces. Obviously, YMMV, but if you are doing a wide spectrum of cloud + mobile, Azure is very compelling and Xamarin can become nearly as large a burden cost-wise. That total burden still can be extremely competitive and the ramp for existing .net shops a pretty clear winner. But being a C# developer has never been so promising - and it wasn't ever that awful to begin with. If anything, the problem of coming from the old MS-dev platform-planning and having to understand the range of options and optimizing for costs around those is the weak spot.
NicoJuicy 12y ago
If you are an MSDN subscriber, you also get discounts on the Azure cloud for testing and dev porposes http://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/member-offers/msdn-benefits-details/ http://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/member-offers/msdn-... TLDR? 33% on VM's, 25% on cloud and then according your MSDN subscription 40 - 115 €/ month.