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We have come to a lot of the same conclusions, particularly w.r.t. evolution being a metaphysical phenomenon and its being deeply interwoven with (or perhaps an

by gradys 12y ago

We have come to a lot of the same conclusions, particularly w.r.t. evolution being a metaphysical phenomenon and its being deeply interwoven with (or perhaps analogous to) intelligence. Do you have any favorite authors or texts in this area?

Snail_Commando 12y ago
This book isn't directly related to all of OP's comment, but it addresses emergent, meta-properties of systems---which seems to me to be an important component of OP's (outstanding) comment. The book is an exploration of complex behaviours and properties that arise from seemingly simple actors, actions, and individual characteristics taken in aggregate; essentially, the dynamics and structures of meta-properties/behaviours in systems. More directly, the book also addresses examples of swarm dynamics and intelligence. "Self Organization in Biological Systems" http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7104.html http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7104.html
netcan 12y ago
Not really. Richard Dawkins turned me on to the idea. Interestingly, the whole "intelligent design" debate is a good proxy for 'evolution as intelligence' arguments. One side offers example of how biology/nature is 'designed' and the other finds explanations for how it is evolved. Evolution does seem intelligently designed. It exhibits problem solving. The similarity between the way an intelligent human thinks and the way nature "thinks" is striking. It's striking to the point that simply defining nature as an intelligence (or even going further as defining it as an intelligent creator) doesn't seem out of the question. We know a lot about the mechanics of evolution. Less about the mechanics of human intelligence. In the absence of a better understanding of the latter, it's more or less just a semantic choice. But, there could very well be a stronger connection. Maybe something similar to evolutionary intelligence powers human intelligence. Maybe both are instances of a more fundamental thing. I'm using 'emergence' as the placeholder in my brain for that fundamental principle/algorithm or collection of these. 'Emergence' also covers concepts from economics, culture and ecologies and finds logical solutions for things without the intervention of an intelligent human. But no, I don't have good reading recommendations. If anyone does, I would love to hear them. Fiction, non-fiction. I would love to hear about these ideas from different perspectives.
- Geee 12y ago
  I've been thinking about this a bit lately. I came to the conclusion that brain could basically be a process to simulate evolution (not computational, but analogous mimicry). If something seemingly 'intelligent' can exist because of evolutive process ('emergence'), brain should mimic the process to arrive at the same solution, faster. For example, when I'm thinking about this comment I'm unknowingly eliminating all the pathways that lead to bad comments and this is the only one that survives ('emerges').
  - netcan 12y ago
    Why 'mimic?' IE, if this is correct then biological evolutions mimics intelligence just as much as intelligence mimics biology.
- gradys 12y ago
  Well, you already mentioned Dawkins, but to anyone else reading this, I can't recommend The Selfish Gene enough. It dramatically changed the way I understand nature, and with the chapter on memes, the way I understand culture. I hear The Extended Phenotype, again by Dawkins, is also excellent, but regrettably, I haven't read it yet. I also highly recommend Dan Dennett. He covers these topics more directly. Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking covers his thoughts on consciousness and evolution in a very direct and superbly clear manner. Dennett also co-edited an anthology of fiction and non-fiction called The Mind's I with Douglas Hofstadter (of Godel, Escher, Bach fame). It was one of the most interesting and enjoyable books I have ever read. It covers a very wide variety of topics surrounding the editors' theory of the mind, including the classic dualist/materialist debate (the editors are distinctly materialists), evolution, the mechanics at the core of consciousness, and so much more. It's another one that I can't recommend enough.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
balfirevic 12y ago
Daniel Dennett expresses almost that exact idea (about evolution being abstract principle) in his book Darwin's Dangerous Idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin's_Dangerous_Idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin's_Dangerous_Idea

by gradys 12y ago

Snail_Commando 12y ago

This book isn't directly related to all of OP's comment, but it addresses emergent, meta-properties of systems---which seems to me to be an important component of OP's (outstanding) comment. The book is an exploration of complex behaviours and properties that arise from seemingly simple actors, actions, and individual characteristics taken in aggregate; essentially, the dynamics and structures of meta-properties/behaviours in systems. More directly, the book also addresses examples of swarm dynamics and intelligence. "Self Organization in Biological Systems" http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7104.html http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7104.html

netcan 12y ago

Not really. Richard Dawkins turned me on to the idea. Interestingly, the whole "intelligent design" debate is a good proxy for 'evolution as intelligence' arguments. One side offers example of how biology/nature is 'designed' and the other finds explanations for how it is evolved. Evolution does seem intelligently designed. It exhibits problem solving. The similarity between the way an intelligent human thinks and the way nature "thinks" is striking. It's striking to the point that simply defining nature as an intelligence (or even going further as defining it as an intelligent creator) doesn't seem out of the question. We know a lot about the mechanics of evolution. Less about the mechanics of human intelligence. In the absence of a better understanding of the latter, it's more or less just a semantic choice. But, there could very well be a stronger connection. Maybe something similar to evolutionary intelligence powers human intelligence. Maybe both are instances of a more fundamental thing. I'm using 'emergence' as the placeholder in my brain for that fundamental principle/algorithm or collection of these. 'Emergence' also covers concepts from economics, culture and ecologies and finds logical solutions for things without the intervention of an intelligent human. But no, I don't have good reading recommendations. If anyone does, I would love to hear them. Fiction, non-fiction. I would love to hear about these ideas from different perspectives.

Geee 12y ago
I've been thinking about this a bit lately. I came to the conclusion that brain could basically be a process to simulate evolution (not computational, but analogous mimicry). If something seemingly 'intelligent' can exist because of evolutive process ('emergence'), brain should mimic the process to arrive at the same solution, faster. For example, when I'm thinking about this comment I'm unknowingly eliminating all the pathways that lead to bad comments and this is the only one that survives ('emerges').
- netcan 12y ago
  Why 'mimic?' IE, if this is correct then biological evolutions mimics intelligence just as much as intelligence mimics biology.
gradys 12y ago
Well, you already mentioned Dawkins, but to anyone else reading this, I can't recommend The Selfish Gene enough. It dramatically changed the way I understand nature, and with the chapter on memes, the way I understand culture. I hear The Extended Phenotype, again by Dawkins, is also excellent, but regrettably, I haven't read it yet. I also highly recommend Dan Dennett. He covers these topics more directly. Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking covers his thoughts on consciousness and evolution in a very direct and superbly clear manner. Dennett also co-edited an anthology of fiction and non-fiction called The Mind's I with Douglas Hofstadter (of Godel, Escher, Bach fame). It was one of the most interesting and enjoyable books I have ever read. It covers a very wide variety of topics surrounding the editors' theory of the mind, including the classic dualist/materialist debate (the editors are distinctly materialists), evolution, the mechanics at the core of consciousness, and so much more. It's another one that I can't recommend enough.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

balfirevic 12y ago

Daniel Dennett expresses almost that exact idea (about evolution being abstract principle) in his book Darwin's Dangerous Idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin's_Dangerous_Idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin's_Dangerous_Idea