7 ms·

Suicide Prevention Sheds a Longstanding Taboo: Talking About Attempts

32 points by Xero 12y ago

slc 12y ago
This is stupid. And I can't believe it doesn't sound stupid to those who are the most likely to attempt suicide seriously. Why doesn't anyone talk about "misery prevention" ?
- jstevens85 12y ago
  There's a lot of academic literature that supports the claim that reports of suicide in the media lead to an increase in the number of suicides. This is often referred to as "copycat suicide" or "the Werther effect". As a result, journalists and academics are often very careful about they way they publicly discuss suicide attempts. More information can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2094294?uid=3737536&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103662438391 http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2094294?uid=3737536&ui... http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/197/3/234.abstract http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/197/3/234.abstract
  - slc 12y ago
    The army officials who deny mental health care to soldiers who later completely unpredictably off themselves at a rate higher than combat casualties must have read some of the same literature.
evanlivingston 12y ago
The longstanding taboo I think is actually allowing people to commit suicide. This question rarely enters the debate.
- mbillie1 12y ago
  Can you elaborate on this? I think it would be virtually impossible to prevent suicide, not to mention various things perhaps not treated as suicide but which are self-caused deaths (repeatedly engaging in very-very-high-risk activity, for example).
  - evanlivingston 12y ago
    I mean that suicide is perceived as something to prevent, but I don't often see the conversation about _why_ we are preventing it. Clinical depression is a beast, and many people who pursue treatment seriously continue to struggle with it their whole lives. I think great minds like David Foster Wallace prove how persistent depression is. Suicide is a real escape from the incredible pain that depression can cause, yet we continue to culturally perpetuate the taboo of suicide. The question is; Why is it not okay for people to kill themselves?
    - meric 12y ago
      One cause of suicide is emotional pain, and at times it is inflicted (accidentally or intentionally) by others in society. Not preventing suicide would mean we give up solving the actual problem of inflicted emotional pain. At the same time, IMHO, the focus is on suicide prevention rather than catering the emotional needs of individuals because there's a tendency for society in aggregate to only solve problems at the last minute. i.e. Society doesn't care about your health until you reach the emergency room. It doesn't care about your emotional pain until you attempt suicide. It doesn't care about your career until you become unemployed.
    - dfc 12y ago
      Why did it take "a great mind like DFW" to accept how persistent depression is? I doubt you meant it but I found the dfw bit to be offensive. You seem to deny the serious pain and suffering my friend experienced simply because he was not a celebrity and/or had an average IQ? The reason I say it is offensive (and that you did not intend it to be) is that it seems as if pre-DFW you assumed my friend was just not smart enough to out think depression, or that given his mediocore mind/life, depression would not need to be that powerful and persistent in order for him to realize the loss of his life was no big deal. In my opinion the better question to ask would be "Why is it not okay for depressives to kill themselves?" The taboo is related to a very specific suicide. When an individual has brain cancer it is euthanasia, when the individual has depression it is suicide.
dclowd9901 12y ago
"...in the past few years, scores of them have come together on social media and in other forums to demand a bigger voice in prevention efforts." Wha-? I'm by no means a heartless person. However, I truly believe if you don't want to live any more, that it's your right and your responsibility. I'm not in your head. I don't know what you're thinking. Most of the time, I won't even know that you're depressed. Many people mask it very well. Why is it my fault that you decided to kill yourself?
- kbatten 12y ago
  Prevention efforts could include ways to talk about your problems without being afraid that people would treat you differently or force you to do something you didn't want to do. There would have to be an absolute guarantee of privacy of course.
- id 12y ago
  It's not your fault, like it's not your fault when children die of cancer. That doesn't mean we should find ways to prevent it. Most poeple who attempt or commit suicide don't want to die, but rather prefer death over life because they want to put an end to their suffering. That said, I don't think talking about attempts will help someone who is suicidal in the slightest. If anything it leads to emulation suicides, also known as the Werther effect, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide
  - sien 12y ago
    Copycat suicide is contested. This has more detail: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2006/10/werther_effect_copycat_suicide.html http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2006/10/werther_effect_copyca... This podcast discusses the issue: http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-suicide-paradox/ http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-po...
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
graeme 12y ago
Serious question: is someone who attempts suicide in the same group as someone who successfully commits suicide? For instance, far more men commit suicide. But far more women attempt suicide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide I'm sure there are other differences. To me, the questions are: 1. Why do people fail at suicide attempts? 2. Will information that dissuades a failed suicide attempt dissuade someone from making a successful suicide attempt?
- Swizec 12y ago
  A lot of people don't _actually_ want to commit suicide. Humans generally speaking do not want to die, but when you're there, it feels like the only option. I distinctly remember feeling that my brain wanted me to die, but I personally was not of the same opinion at all. So what I did was call up a friend and basically said "You have an hour to convince me not to do this". It worked, I'm here. But I feel that when trying to commit suicide, you will instinctively do everything in your power to botch the attempt. Because what you're looking for isn't death per se, it's clarity and resolution. Mostly you just want "it" to stop, any sort of traumatic experience can be surprisingly helpful with that.
- altero 12y ago
  It is not suicide attempt if you are not planning to die. For example drug overdose is not necessary suicide attempt. Men in general are treated like a shit, so they kill themselfs. Most women are emotionally blackmailing their families.
  - mbillie1 12y ago
    This post consists of 1) an undocumented / unproven assertion, 2) a laughable generalization, and 3) an offensive generalization.
    - altero 12y ago
      What part do you actually disagree with? If you have two persons with the same body mass, both of them drink 1 liter of whiskey. I bet in one case it will be 'really bad hangover' and in second case it will be 'suicide attempt'.
softatlas 12y ago
I've contemplated suicide off-and-on since age 6. It's just a working part of my language. No successful attempts, or failed attempts, or whatever grammar is being built here. It might partly be influenced by a Tourette's like underlying structure, which would here make it more publicly, or in terms of a biological profile, a symptom. Usually all we see are symptoms in the narration of science.

32 points by Xero 12y ago

slc 12y ago

This is stupid. And I can't believe it doesn't sound stupid to those who are the most likely to attempt suicide seriously. Why doesn't anyone talk about "misery prevention" ?

jstevens85 12y ago
There's a lot of academic literature that supports the claim that reports of suicide in the media lead to an increase in the number of suicides. This is often referred to as "copycat suicide" or "the Werther effect". As a result, journalists and academics are often very careful about they way they publicly discuss suicide attempts. More information can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2094294?uid=3737536&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103662438391 http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2094294?uid=3737536&ui... http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/197/3/234.abstract http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/197/3/234.abstract
- slc 12y ago
  The army officials who deny mental health care to soldiers who later completely unpredictably off themselves at a rate higher than combat casualties must have read some of the same literature.

evanlivingston 12y ago

The longstanding taboo I think is actually allowing people to commit suicide. This question rarely enters the debate.

mbillie1 12y ago
Can you elaborate on this? I think it would be virtually impossible to prevent suicide, not to mention various things perhaps not treated as suicide but which are self-caused deaths (repeatedly engaging in very-very-high-risk activity, for example).
- evanlivingston 12y ago
  I mean that suicide is perceived as something to prevent, but I don't often see the conversation about _why_ we are preventing it. Clinical depression is a beast, and many people who pursue treatment seriously continue to struggle with it their whole lives. I think great minds like David Foster Wallace prove how persistent depression is. Suicide is a real escape from the incredible pain that depression can cause, yet we continue to culturally perpetuate the taboo of suicide. The question is; Why is it not okay for people to kill themselves?
  - meric 12y ago
    One cause of suicide is emotional pain, and at times it is inflicted (accidentally or intentionally) by others in society. Not preventing suicide would mean we give up solving the actual problem of inflicted emotional pain. At the same time, IMHO, the focus is on suicide prevention rather than catering the emotional needs of individuals because there's a tendency for society in aggregate to only solve problems at the last minute. i.e. Society doesn't care about your health until you reach the emergency room. It doesn't care about your emotional pain until you attempt suicide. It doesn't care about your career until you become unemployed.
  - dfc 12y ago
    Why did it take "a great mind like DFW" to accept how persistent depression is? I doubt you meant it but I found the dfw bit to be offensive. You seem to deny the serious pain and suffering my friend experienced simply because he was not a celebrity and/or had an average IQ? The reason I say it is offensive (and that you did not intend it to be) is that it seems as if pre-DFW you assumed my friend was just not smart enough to out think depression, or that given his mediocore mind/life, depression would not need to be that powerful and persistent in order for him to realize the loss of his life was no big deal. In my opinion the better question to ask would be "Why is it not okay for depressives to kill themselves?" The taboo is related to a very specific suicide. When an individual has brain cancer it is euthanasia, when the individual has depression it is suicide.

dclowd9901 12y ago

"...in the past few years, scores of them have come together on social media and in other forums to demand a bigger voice in prevention efforts." Wha-? I'm by no means a heartless person. However, I truly believe if you don't want to live any more, that it's your right and your responsibility. I'm not in your head. I don't know what you're thinking. Most of the time, I won't even know that you're depressed. Many people mask it very well. Why is it my fault that you decided to kill yourself?

kbatten 12y ago
Prevention efforts could include ways to talk about your problems without being afraid that people would treat you differently or force you to do something you didn't want to do. There would have to be an absolute guarantee of privacy of course.
id 12y ago
It's not your fault, like it's not your fault when children die of cancer. That doesn't mean we should find ways to prevent it. Most poeple who attempt or commit suicide don't want to die, but rather prefer death over life because they want to put an end to their suffering. That said, I don't think talking about attempts will help someone who is suicidal in the slightest. If anything it leads to emulation suicides, also known as the Werther effect, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide
- sien 12y ago
  Copycat suicide is contested. This has more detail: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2006/10/werther_effect_copycat_suicide.html http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2006/10/werther_effect_copyca... This podcast discusses the issue: http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-suicide-paradox/ http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-po...
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]

graeme 12y ago

Serious question: is someone who attempts suicide in the same group as someone who successfully commits suicide? For instance, far more men commit suicide. But far more women attempt suicide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide I'm sure there are other differences. To me, the questions are: 1. Why do people fail at suicide attempts? 2. Will information that dissuades a failed suicide attempt dissuade someone from making a successful suicide attempt?

Swizec 12y ago
A lot of people don't _actually_ want to commit suicide. Humans generally speaking do not want to die, but when you're there, it feels like the only option. I distinctly remember feeling that my brain wanted me to die, but I personally was not of the same opinion at all. So what I did was call up a friend and basically said "You have an hour to convince me not to do this". It worked, I'm here. But I feel that when trying to commit suicide, you will instinctively do everything in your power to botch the attempt. Because what you're looking for isn't death per se, it's clarity and resolution. Mostly you just want "it" to stop, any sort of traumatic experience can be surprisingly helpful with that.
altero 12y ago
It is not suicide attempt if you are not planning to die. For example drug overdose is not necessary suicide attempt. Men in general are treated like a shit, so they kill themselfs. Most women are emotionally blackmailing their families.
- mbillie1 12y ago
  This post consists of 1) an undocumented / unproven assertion, 2) a laughable generalization, and 3) an offensive generalization.
  - altero 12y ago
    What part do you actually disagree with? If you have two persons with the same body mass, both of them drink 1 liter of whiskey. I bet in one case it will be 'really bad hangover' and in second case it will be 'suicide attempt'.

softatlas 12y ago

I've contemplated suicide off-and-on since age 6. It's just a working part of my language. No successful attempts, or failed attempts, or whatever grammar is being built here. It might partly be influenced by a Tourette's like underlying structure, which would here make it more publicly, or in terms of a biological profile, a symptom. Usually all we see are symptoms in the narration of science.