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you are not, but society is an organism with more than you in it, and if he's thrown into the bin because he's can't make it in it the guy may think it's fair t

you are not, but society is an organism with more than you in it, and if he's thrown into the bin because he's can't make it in it the guy may think it's fair to take it from you... in the same vein, your job only exist because there's people with enough buying power to keep the business you're at existing, so again you depend on people, and you could be punished or rewarded depending on how society as a entire organism does...

ahomescu1 13y ago
> you are not, but society is an organism with more than you in it, and if he's thrown into the bin because he's can't make it in it the guy may think it's fair to take it from you... I already had a similar discussion on Slashdot recently. Taking other people's money by force is, IMHO, theft. My question then isn't why it would be OK for the guy, but why does theft become OK for society? Why are you arguing that stealing is acceptable if you're desperate enough? I say it's never acceptable. EDIT: Paying people so they don't steal from me is called a protection racket. If that's what you're arguing for, let's call it what it is.
- rjtavares 13y ago
  People like you scare me. I can't even understand that point of view, and I don't think we can have a productive argument if we don't share a basic understanding of what a society is. Saying that taxes are theft is as absurd to me as saying that private property is imoral.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    It's easier to understand people like this if you study how religious fundamentalism works. The key is in understanding that everything in the world, in their point of view, boils down to a basic set of axioms. This simplified reality allows them to extrapolate claims outwards that are otherwise absurd if approached from another direction, because contrary facts have already been discarded as irrelevant; it gives them the comfort of feeling that their beliefs are "holy" or "logical", which reinforces it in an infinite loop.
  - ahomescu1 13y ago
    > Saying that taxes are theft is as absurd to me as saying that private property is imoral. I'm not arguing that "taxes are theft". I'm arguing that giving money to poor people so they don't attack me is theft. buzaga was saying that if I/we don't "take care of the unfortunate", they'll decide to take our money/stuff by force. Sounds like a veiled threat to "give them money, or else..." That is theft, in my opinion. I'm perfectly fine with taxes as long as they go to things that benefit everyone equally, including me (like roads, schools, police and courthouses). EDIT: Also, please point out where I said (or implied) that "taxes are theft". You completely misread what I wrote, therefore I have to agree that we can't have a productive argument.
    - buzaga41 13y ago
      +misery = +violence -misery = -violence +people participating in the economy = +business, +salaries better society = better society for everyone You still can't seem to think outside your box it seems. Misery breeds violence, there's no "or else", there's no "they", it's reality, I could resort to violence to survive and so could you.
      - ahomescu1 13y ago
        By that logic (extending it a bit), we could fire all the cops, and just give our money over to criminals who ask for it. There's a point at which I draw the line, and prefer to fight instead.
        buzaga41 13y ago
        You still can't seem to think outside your box it seems.
        ahomescu1 13y ago
        What box is that? I can't contradict or agree with you unless you're actually making an argument.
- buzaga41 13y ago
  Of course it's acceptable. Depending on the circumstances, killing can be acceptable, eating human flesh can be acceptable, why wouldn't stealing be? It's not taken from you, if everybody receives basic income, how can it be taking from you? You're missing the point.
  - ahomescu1 13y ago
    > Depending on the circumstances, killing can be acceptable, eating human flesh can be acceptable, why wouldn't stealing be? Maybe you find those acceptable, but I find all of them horrible. Killing someone is only acceptable in self defense (in which case someone else is trying to kill you first), while cannibalism is just sick.
    - buzaga41 13y ago
      You still can't seem to think outside your box it seems.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      "Killing someone is only acceptable in self defense" How is that not "depending on the circumstances"? Is not "killing is needed to defend myself" a circumstance? "while cannibalism is just sick." So, if someone is genuinely in a situation where their options are 1) starve to death, or 2) eat the other guy who just starved to death, you think it's clear that they should choose 1?
- bryanlarsen 13y ago
  The only reason that you can make the money you do is because you're standing on the shoulders of giants. Aristotle, Newton, Watt, Tesla, Von Nuemann, et cetera. Left to your own devices (and assuming that the other 7 billion people are in the same boat) you'd be starving as a subsistence farmer making the equivalent of about $1 a day. If you currently make $35K a year, that means that you owe 99.9% of your income to society. Your income taxes are only about a third of that. Who's the thief now?
  - ahomescu1 13y ago
    > Left to your own devices (and assuming that the other 7 billion people are in the same boat) you'd be starving as a subsistence farmer making the equivalent of about $1 a day. That's an unreasonable assumption. There are differences in productivity even among farmers. Some people are much better at farming than others. > If you currently make $35K a year, that means that you owe 99.9% of your income to society. So my own creativity, labor, skills, talents and education only matter for 0.1%, nothing more? Also, you're arguing that I owe part of my success to the drug addict who gets high all the time, and to the drunk who starts drinking early in the morning, and to the mugger who robs people at gunpoint? Even to people who play World of Warcraft all day? Society is a mix of people that make wildly different contributions, and in some cases hugely negative impacts. I am immensely grateful to people like Leibniz, Newton, Shakespeare and others, but not so much to people who just coast through life. I also wish Stalin, Hitler and many others would have never existed.
    - bryanlarsen 13y ago
      "There are differences in productivity even among farmers." Not if you don't have access to machinery, modern seeds, chemicals, weather forecasting, tens of thousands of years worth of agricultural research and oral history, et cetera. "So my own creativity, labor, skills, talents and education only matter for 0.1%" Pretty much useless to the subsistence farmer. Basically the only thing that matters is luck and hard work. Not to mention that society provides the source of your inspiration, provided your education, an outlet for your talents, et cetera. Obviously my argument is a little bit of reductio ad absurdum. But much less so than "taxation is theft".

ahomescu1 13y ago

> you are not, but society is an organism with more than you in it, and if he's thrown into the bin because he's can't make it in it the guy may think it's fair to take it from you... I already had a similar discussion on Slashdot recently. Taking other people's money by force is, IMHO, theft. My question then isn't why it would be OK for the guy, but why does theft become OK for society? Why are you arguing that stealing is acceptable if you're desperate enough? I say it's never acceptable. EDIT: Paying people so they don't steal from me is called a protection racket. If that's what you're arguing for, let's call it what it is.

rjtavares 13y ago
People like you scare me. I can't even understand that point of view, and I don't think we can have a productive argument if we don't share a basic understanding of what a society is. Saying that taxes are theft is as absurd to me as saying that private property is imoral.
- saraid216 13y ago
  It's easier to understand people like this if you study how religious fundamentalism works. The key is in understanding that everything in the world, in their point of view, boils down to a basic set of axioms. This simplified reality allows them to extrapolate claims outwards that are otherwise absurd if approached from another direction, because contrary facts have already been discarded as irrelevant; it gives them the comfort of feeling that their beliefs are "holy" or "logical", which reinforces it in an infinite loop.
- ahomescu1 13y ago
  > Saying that taxes are theft is as absurd to me as saying that private property is imoral. I'm not arguing that "taxes are theft". I'm arguing that giving money to poor people so they don't attack me is theft. buzaga was saying that if I/we don't "take care of the unfortunate", they'll decide to take our money/stuff by force. Sounds like a veiled threat to "give them money, or else..." That is theft, in my opinion. I'm perfectly fine with taxes as long as they go to things that benefit everyone equally, including me (like roads, schools, police and courthouses). EDIT: Also, please point out where I said (or implied) that "taxes are theft". You completely misread what I wrote, therefore I have to agree that we can't have a productive argument.
  - buzaga41 13y ago
    +misery = +violence -misery = -violence +people participating in the economy = +business, +salaries better society = better society for everyone You still can't seem to think outside your box it seems. Misery breeds violence, there's no "or else", there's no "they", it's reality, I could resort to violence to survive and so could you.
    - ahomescu1 13y ago
      By that logic (extending it a bit), we could fire all the cops, and just give our money over to criminals who ask for it. There's a point at which I draw the line, and prefer to fight instead.
      - buzaga41 13y ago
        You still can't seem to think outside your box it seems.
        ahomescu1 13y ago
        What box is that? I can't contradict or agree with you unless you're actually making an argument.
buzaga41 13y ago
Of course it's acceptable. Depending on the circumstances, killing can be acceptable, eating human flesh can be acceptable, why wouldn't stealing be? It's not taken from you, if everybody receives basic income, how can it be taking from you? You're missing the point.
- ahomescu1 13y ago
  > Depending on the circumstances, killing can be acceptable, eating human flesh can be acceptable, why wouldn't stealing be? Maybe you find those acceptable, but I find all of them horrible. Killing someone is only acceptable in self defense (in which case someone else is trying to kill you first), while cannibalism is just sick.
  - buzaga41 13y ago
    You still can't seem to think outside your box it seems.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    "Killing someone is only acceptable in self defense" How is that not "depending on the circumstances"? Is not "killing is needed to defend myself" a circumstance? "while cannibalism is just sick." So, if someone is genuinely in a situation where their options are 1) starve to death, or 2) eat the other guy who just starved to death, you think it's clear that they should choose 1?
bryanlarsen 13y ago
The only reason that you can make the money you do is because you're standing on the shoulders of giants. Aristotle, Newton, Watt, Tesla, Von Nuemann, et cetera. Left to your own devices (and assuming that the other 7 billion people are in the same boat) you'd be starving as a subsistence farmer making the equivalent of about $1 a day. If you currently make $35K a year, that means that you owe 99.9% of your income to society. Your income taxes are only about a third of that. Who's the thief now?
- ahomescu1 13y ago
  > Left to your own devices (and assuming that the other 7 billion people are in the same boat) you'd be starving as a subsistence farmer making the equivalent of about $1 a day. That's an unreasonable assumption. There are differences in productivity even among farmers. Some people are much better at farming than others. > If you currently make $35K a year, that means that you owe 99.9% of your income to society. So my own creativity, labor, skills, talents and education only matter for 0.1%, nothing more? Also, you're arguing that I owe part of my success to the drug addict who gets high all the time, and to the drunk who starts drinking early in the morning, and to the mugger who robs people at gunpoint? Even to people who play World of Warcraft all day? Society is a mix of people that make wildly different contributions, and in some cases hugely negative impacts. I am immensely grateful to people like Leibniz, Newton, Shakespeare and others, but not so much to people who just coast through life. I also wish Stalin, Hitler and many others would have never existed.
  - bryanlarsen 13y ago
    "There are differences in productivity even among farmers." Not if you don't have access to machinery, modern seeds, chemicals, weather forecasting, tens of thousands of years worth of agricultural research and oral history, et cetera. "So my own creativity, labor, skills, talents and education only matter for 0.1%" Pretty much useless to the subsistence farmer. Basically the only thing that matters is luck and hard work. Not to mention that society provides the source of your inspiration, provided your education, an outlet for your talents, et cetera. Obviously my argument is a little bit of reductio ad absurdum. But much less so than "taxation is theft".