6 ms·

Well, you're overlooking mistakes that I made. I feel that generalists should be valued more highly; this is a significant issue. However, I should have built m

Well, you're overlooking mistakes that I made. I feel that generalists should be valued more highly; this is a significant issue. However, I should have built more of a social network, taken better care of myself physically, diversified my investments more, and kept up more with how the market was changing.

selmnoo 13y ago
So what's your plan going forward here on out, to secure financial and medical stability for yourself?
- OldCoder 13y ago
  If I stay in the S.F. Bay Area, I think that a junior tech position here might work out. Above entry level and below lead. The trick will be staying above water long enough to find a good match. I'd expand my options, both tech and non-tech, if I took the right courses and obtained certifications. I'm seriously considering doing something like this. For example, the person who did my LiveScan recently (it was a background check for a tutoring job) teaches an EKG Technician class and said that it might work out for me. A police detective who I phoned by mistake one night told me that I should consider getting a Digital Forensics certificate. He seemed to feel that I might be a match for that. Note: The story of the call is on the same weblog as tonight's post. The medical care issue may be looking up. I had to go to the Emergency Room the other day. Didn't wish to, but no choice. I learned that the laws changed in January and that I might qualify for assistance after 10 years without care.
  - yukichan 13y ago
    Honest question, how well do you do in programming interviews? Do you blow data structures and algorithm, etc CS questions out of the water?
    - OldCoder 13y ago
      In everyday situations, outside of job interviews, if I feel confident about a situation, and I'm not under time pressure, I often come across as polished. I've been mistaken for an attorney repeatedly over the past few decades. At least twice, people have thought that I was a government official of some type. If the confidence isn't there, I do poorly. And I haven't felt confident in interviews because of the types of questions that you're referring to. I don't memorize data structures and algorithms. I start with projects and learn what's needed in each case. Coding tests are another problem for me. If you review my GitHub repos or technical site (oldcoder.org) you'll see that my code is reasonably good. But it involves flow. If I drop into flow, I can do anything. But it's difficult to reach that state while somebody is waiting. I understand, of course, that companies have their processes, and that I need to be the one to adapt as opposed to the other way around.
      - jnbiche 13y ago
        I'm around 40 and I struggle with the exact same issues, at least with algorithms (I'm pretty much OK with data structures). Funny thing is, I've enjoyed doing things like Project Euler just for fun, and I can usually work out an algorithm given a little time and the ability to work on my own in an environment I'm comfortable in. But put me in front of a white board, or phone interview, with one or more impatient interviewers in front of me? I'm toast. Many of these interviewers were studying these algorithms in depth in school only 4 or 5 years ago. Anyway, I've resigned myself to the fact that I have to earn my own living by freelancing and side projects. I'm doing OK with that, and I hope that an upcoming side project will provide even more financial stability. Have you considered starting your own company? These days, you don't need much.
        jimbokun 13y ago
        "Have you considered starting your own company? These days, you don't need much." Also a good resume builder, shows you have still been coding since your last job in 2009.
        eru 13y ago
        > [..] same issues, at least with algorithms (I'm pretty much OK with data structures). What's the difference?
  - kokey 13y ago
    The digital forensics suggestion seems quite good to me. It's a growing industry and people with decent skills are hard to find, where decent skills means being cable of working with technology from hardware up to data structures and encryption, while also making sure processes to capture and present evidence is followed properly.
  - d--b 13y ago
    Don't present yourself as a generalist. Play the C card all the way. There is a large amount of corporations that developed in house systems in C that need maintenance, and that face a shortage of developers. You should become a specialist of older generalist systems. My first internship in 2004 was to take care of a large cobol source base in a bank. It was very hard for them to find someone. Forget about new certifications, just find a big old bank or insurance that requires C developer with knowledge of SQL / unix / scripting.
tomp 13y ago
Still, you should be preferable than any college graduate in any kind of junior role. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a junior role mean 100K in SV? Or do you want a more senior position?
- insertnickname 13y ago
  >Or do you want a more senior position? From the post it doesn't sound like he's picky.
- OldCoder 13y ago
  I'd be pleased with a junior role if it's a good match for both sides. That's important to me.
- hrktb 13y ago
  There is a bias against having highly experienced people in middle level jobs. Apart from the stereotype of the jaded guy that has seen too much shit, there is the power balance between a youngish manager and a very experienced programmer. Sometimes the programmer will see a flurry of incoming problems very soon and flood the manager with them, and the latter won't know how to deal with this kind of situation. He'll be relying a lot on the more experienced person, but the power balance is reversed and the responsibilities as well, and it takes a lot of tippy-toeing and ego swallowing to sail smoothly. It's tricky on both sides, and company would prefer to avoid that kind of situation.
  - gress 13y ago
    This is highly unfortunate and seems like the problem is with the younger managers not having adequate support. In my early 30's I had the the privilege of being able to recruit 50+ developers onto two separate teams at a startup. These were people who's experience vastly outweighed my own. I was still responsible for guiding my teams to meet the business needs, but what I learned from these people literally changed my life.
    - hrktb 13y ago
tluyben2 13y ago
I agree with that; I think people undervalue generalists, get stuck with a specialist which is nice while you are in that particular field, but the world changes. Specialists are specialists because they spent a lot of time on one thing; depending on your age that means you didn't spend a lot of time on anything else and that might turn out to be VERY difficult when you get older. I don't know many PHP 'specialists' above 30 who can actually 'change' their calling. They have an extremely hard time picking up anything else as they have been coding PHP (and a tiny bit of JS) only for the last 15+ years. It takes serious effort to switch at that point if you're not used to that flexibility in your brain. Keeping up with the market is a big thing though; as someone who was in the dotcom boom and who did backends at the time, I only noticed that everything changed years 'too late'. It wasn't really too late, but my eye wasn't on the ball for sure as I had a cushy position anyway I didn't need to, but when I sold my stock and went looking for the next interesting thing to do I noticed that the world changed significantly.
avenger123 13y ago
I don't deny that getting older has an impact but your statements above are applicable to anyone and probably more so to older developers. Reading over your story the main thing that stuck out with me is that you've had a it rough for the past few years and its obviously had an impact on the career. What I would add is to focus on your health. I don't know what problems you have but if you can work on the diet, work on the fitness, get on some kind of weight training program. The better you feel, the more energy you have will make you more effective everywhere else.
- OldCoder 13y ago
  I started a few days ago. It hasn't been a good week for medical issues but things are looking up. I've been to the Emergency Room twice since Sunday. And I had a fever of 102 degrees just a few hours ago. But I'm feeling O.K. and I'm scheduled to go back in a few hours to nail down what's happening physically. Due to recent changes in U.S. laws, I might be able to qualify for medical care now. If it works out, this will be a big help.
jmspring 13y ago
You mention social network, I think it is also critical to build up a good professional network. The group I am part of has a couple of individuals in their 50s, one a specialist and one more of a generalist. They joined the company through professional connections they had worked with before. I'm purposefully making a distinction between "a random set of contacts" and a more targeted group of people who you have worked with, know your strengths, and want to work with you again.

selmnoo 13y ago

So what's your plan going forward here on out, to secure financial and medical stability for yourself?

OldCoder 13y ago
If I stay in the S.F. Bay Area, I think that a junior tech position here might work out. Above entry level and below lead. The trick will be staying above water long enough to find a good match. I'd expand my options, both tech and non-tech, if I took the right courses and obtained certifications. I'm seriously considering doing something like this. For example, the person who did my LiveScan recently (it was a background check for a tutoring job) teaches an EKG Technician class and said that it might work out for me. A police detective who I phoned by mistake one night told me that I should consider getting a Digital Forensics certificate. He seemed to feel that I might be a match for that. Note: The story of the call is on the same weblog as tonight's post. The medical care issue may be looking up. I had to go to the Emergency Room the other day. Didn't wish to, but no choice. I learned that the laws changed in January and that I might qualify for assistance after 10 years without care.
- yukichan 13y ago
  Honest question, how well do you do in programming interviews? Do you blow data structures and algorithm, etc CS questions out of the water?
  - OldCoder 13y ago
    In everyday situations, outside of job interviews, if I feel confident about a situation, and I'm not under time pressure, I often come across as polished. I've been mistaken for an attorney repeatedly over the past few decades. At least twice, people have thought that I was a government official of some type. If the confidence isn't there, I do poorly. And I haven't felt confident in interviews because of the types of questions that you're referring to. I don't memorize data structures and algorithms. I start with projects and learn what's needed in each case. Coding tests are another problem for me. If you review my GitHub repos or technical site (oldcoder.org) you'll see that my code is reasonably good. But it involves flow. If I drop into flow, I can do anything. But it's difficult to reach that state while somebody is waiting. I understand, of course, that companies have their processes, and that I need to be the one to adapt as opposed to the other way around.
    - jnbiche 13y ago
      I'm around 40 and I struggle with the exact same issues, at least with algorithms (I'm pretty much OK with data structures). Funny thing is, I've enjoyed doing things like Project Euler just for fun, and I can usually work out an algorithm given a little time and the ability to work on my own in an environment I'm comfortable in. But put me in front of a white board, or phone interview, with one or more impatient interviewers in front of me? I'm toast. Many of these interviewers were studying these algorithms in depth in school only 4 or 5 years ago. Anyway, I've resigned myself to the fact that I have to earn my own living by freelancing and side projects. I'm doing OK with that, and I hope that an upcoming side project will provide even more financial stability. Have you considered starting your own company? These days, you don't need much.
      - jimbokun 13y ago
        "Have you considered starting your own company? These days, you don't need much." Also a good resume builder, shows you have still been coding since your last job in 2009.
      - eru 13y ago
        > [..] same issues, at least with algorithms (I'm pretty much OK with data structures). What's the difference?
- kokey 13y ago
  The digital forensics suggestion seems quite good to me. It's a growing industry and people with decent skills are hard to find, where decent skills means being cable of working with technology from hardware up to data structures and encryption, while also making sure processes to capture and present evidence is followed properly.
- d--b 13y ago
  Don't present yourself as a generalist. Play the C card all the way. There is a large amount of corporations that developed in house systems in C that need maintenance, and that face a shortage of developers. You should become a specialist of older generalist systems. My first internship in 2004 was to take care of a large cobol source base in a bank. It was very hard for them to find someone. Forget about new certifications, just find a big old bank or insurance that requires C developer with knowledge of SQL / unix / scripting.

tomp 13y ago

Still, you should be preferable than any college graduate in any kind of junior role. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a junior role mean 100K in SV? Or do you want a more senior position?

insertnickname 13y ago
>Or do you want a more senior position? From the post it doesn't sound like he's picky.
OldCoder 13y ago
I'd be pleased with a junior role if it's a good match for both sides. That's important to me.
hrktb 13y ago
There is a bias against having highly experienced people in middle level jobs. Apart from the stereotype of the jaded guy that has seen too much shit, there is the power balance between a youngish manager and a very experienced programmer. Sometimes the programmer will see a flurry of incoming problems very soon and flood the manager with them, and the latter won't know how to deal with this kind of situation. He'll be relying a lot on the more experienced person, but the power balance is reversed and the responsibilities as well, and it takes a lot of tippy-toeing and ego swallowing to sail smoothly. It's tricky on both sides, and company would prefer to avoid that kind of situation.
- gress 13y ago
  This is highly unfortunate and seems like the problem is with the younger managers not having adequate support. In my early 30's I had the the privilege of being able to recruit 50+ developers onto two separate teams at a startup. These were people who's experience vastly outweighed my own. I was still responsible for guiding my teams to meet the business needs, but what I learned from these people literally changed my life.
  - hrktb 13y ago

tluyben2 13y ago

I agree with that; I think people undervalue generalists, get stuck with a specialist which is nice while you are in that particular field, but the world changes. Specialists are specialists because they spent a lot of time on one thing; depending on your age that means you didn't spend a lot of time on anything else and that might turn out to be VERY difficult when you get older. I don't know many PHP 'specialists' above 30 who can actually 'change' their calling. They have an extremely hard time picking up anything else as they have been coding PHP (and a tiny bit of JS) only for the last 15+ years. It takes serious effort to switch at that point if you're not used to that flexibility in your brain. Keeping up with the market is a big thing though; as someone who was in the dotcom boom and who did backends at the time, I only noticed that everything changed years 'too late'. It wasn't really too late, but my eye wasn't on the ball for sure as I had a cushy position anyway I didn't need to, but when I sold my stock and went looking for the next interesting thing to do I noticed that the world changed significantly.

avenger123 13y ago

I don't deny that getting older has an impact but your statements above are applicable to anyone and probably more so to older developers. Reading over your story the main thing that stuck out with me is that you've had a it rough for the past few years and its obviously had an impact on the career. What I would add is to focus on your health. I don't know what problems you have but if you can work on the diet, work on the fitness, get on some kind of weight training program. The better you feel, the more energy you have will make you more effective everywhere else.

OldCoder 13y ago
I started a few days ago. It hasn't been a good week for medical issues but things are looking up. I've been to the Emergency Room twice since Sunday. And I had a fever of 102 degrees just a few hours ago. But I'm feeling O.K. and I'm scheduled to go back in a few hours to nail down what's happening physically. Due to recent changes in U.S. laws, I might be able to qualify for medical care now. If it works out, this will be a big help.

jmspring 13y ago

You mention social network, I think it is also critical to build up a good professional network. The group I am part of has a couple of individuals in their 50s, one a specialist and one more of a generalist. They joined the company through professional connections they had worked with before. I'm purposefully making a distinction between "a random set of contacts" and a more targeted group of people who you have worked with, know your strengths, and want to work with you again.