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Yeah, except when I do start a conversation with you, I'm hitting on you, and probably being "creepy". I have to navigate a mental minefield of "don't say this

Yeah, except when I do start a conversation with you, I'm hitting on you, and probably being "creepy". I have to navigate a mental minefield of "don't say this" "don't say that too much" or "don't be overly aggressive", otherwise I get screamed about on twitter, labeled as a misogynist, and possibly fired from my job. (Uh-oh, I said dongle! Or...[1]meritocracy!) I'm not saying women in tech don't have problems, they do, but I'm really sick of hearing this like it's a completely one-sided problem. The stupid evil men are holding the women down and keeping them from succeeding! Gender dynamics are hard, for EVERYBODY. Men are having to deal with the fact that suddenly (or maybe not suddenly?) doing things like getting beer after conferences is bad, telling jokes to one another is bad, thinking certain thoughts is bad, using certain words[2] is bad. I'm sorry if you come to a conference and I don't behave in the ultra-narrowly-defined way that you have determined makes me not part of the problem (although I recently found out that asking if I did it wrong makes me part of the problem). I don't have a context for this! And it seems like everything I, and other men like me, try to do to make you feel included is WRONG, and we're BAD for doing it! Invite you to beers after a conference? Hitting on you! Compliment you on what you're wearing? Hitting on you! Objectifying you! Noticing that you are a partially-physical entity! THE HORROR! Ask you about your projects? Flirting with you! Make a suggestion about your project? Mansplaining at you! Men have to navigate a constantly changing, and VERY hazardous minefield every time we talk to you. I'm really sorry (really, genuinely, that is not sarcasm) that sometimes we get it wrong, or sometimes we just forego trying at all and stay quite around you. A lot of it is really just because we don't want to mess it up and make you angry. Women have a LOT of power over men in these situations, and if we screw up even a tiny tiny bit, it can ruin our lives. [1]:http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug#awesm=~oyPjTP04I01sg5 http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug#awesm... [2]:http://banbossy.com http://banbossy.com

melindajb 13y ago
If you can override the animal instincts to kill other humans, why is it so hard to override your thoughts and just treat all other humans with the same respect you'd give your best friend, at least until you see a valid reason not to? No one is saying that getting a beer after work is bad, or telling jokes is bad, or that thinking is bad. this is hand waving. We're asking you, again, to a) understand that lots of drinking leads to situations where women are harassed; b) telling sexist, racist, homophobic jokes is not appropriate in any professional context, and that you should be human enough to override your animal instincts. To be frank, your post comes off as irrational, and immature. You sound very young, and very entitled.
- your_throwaway 13y ago
  With the same respect I treat my best friend? Well, first: my best friend is a woman. And could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a sexist joke? My aforementioned best friend (who I have had this conversation with) as well as most of the women friends I've had this conversation with agree that things like "dongle" jokes are hilarious. So are racist jokes (do you seriously not tell any racist jokes? Ever? Do you avoid all of contemporary stand up and sketch comedy while you're at it?) And very young. Huh? Like how young? Possibly right around the age of most of the people who are attending conferences and hackathons? Right around that 20-30 year old range that constantly gets touted as the age of startup founders on hacker news? I'm 29. Old by HN standards, but you're right: young.
  - melindajb 13y ago
    Just because your best friend is a woman doesn't mean you're incapable of being a sexist. For example, she might be one of those women who enforce some pretty crappy old patriarchial shit. I have no idea. But it's not evidence you can use to say you aren't sexist. Are you trolling? I do not tell racist jokes. ever. period. Why would I ever risk offending someone I really care about for something so stupid? I enjoy Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, and Louis CK as much as the next person, but I make sure I understand why're they are funny, to laugh with them, not at them. your simplistic thinking really makes me question a lot about you. Are you very young also? Perhaps you haven't heard stories from people you respect about the pain they've suffered in silicon valley? Because otherwise you wouldn't be so flippant, and so defensive about such things.
    - your_throwaway 13y ago
      Enlighten me. And while you're at it: why is okay for Louis CK to make a racist joke, but not okay for you? If the joke is hurtful, then shouldn't you be against Louis CK telling it? Why are you okay with that? Why are you giving him support for doing something hurtful? And I didn't say I wasn't capable of being sexist because my best friend is a woman. I said that if I treated a woman at a conference the same way that I treated my best friend, I would probably come across as a creepy asshole. Similarly, if I treated some guy walking down the street the same way that I treat my best friend, I'd probably get labeled as a creepy asshole. I've known my best friend for over a decade. I'm close enough with her to have a shorthand for jokes, or mannerisms, that doesn't exist with random people I've just met. My point was that your post is using some extremely faulty reasoning. No I'm 12: who cares? What does it matter how old I am? Maybe I am a woman! Then what? Does what I'm saying depend on my age, or its content? Do you apply the same logic when assigning validity to things that men and women say? The content doesn't matter, just the person saying it? That's...dare I say it? Possibly pretty sexist of you.
lambda 13y ago
Dude, it's really not hard to have a technical conversation with someone and not come off as creepy. If you feel like you have to worry about this all the time, there's something seriously off about your interpersonal instincts. I'm a pretty socially awkward nerdy guy, and I've never had a problem with being able to have a technical conversation with a woman without being accused of "mansplaining", "being overly aggressive", being "screamed about on twitter" or the like. If all of those things are happening to you, you're probably going about it wrong. Remember, you hear about the worst incidents online. The things that make it to the news do so because they're newsworthy, not because they're commonplace. Since many of us are socially awkward nerds here, let me give you a few hints: Inviting someone for beers after a conference is not hitting on them. But if you're really worried it appearing that way, make sure you invite more than one person; it feels much more like an after-conference beer than an invitation to a date if there's a group of people. Complementing someone on what they're wearing? I complement my male coworkers on their new sneakers or spiffy new jackets sometimes; it's no more creepy to do the same for a female coworker. But I wouldn't do that to some guy I just met, only someone I've known for a while and already have a professional relationship with. If the first thing I said to a guy was a complement on his shoes, that would sound a little weird, wouldn't it, like I might be hitting on him? Same rule goes. Don't make a complement on a woman's clothes or appearance be the first thing you say to her, that makes it sound like you're hitting on her. But if you've known her a while and you notice that she's gotten a new haircut or new jacket, it's not a problem to mention it. Asking about someone's projects? How would you imagine that would sound like flirting? Just make sure you're actually interested in someone's projects, and not just using it as a "get to know you" before trying to ask them on a date.
- your_throwaway 13y ago
  We are literally on the exact same page. You're enumerating my point. Inviting somebody for beers isn't hitting on them, but I have been told by women exactly why this is not okay. (In conversations like this one. This sort of "hey that's not okay" doesn't ever seem to actually come up in real life) I agree that it's totally normal to compliment people on what they're wearing, and I, like you, do this to my coworkers all the time. Except, again, there are lots of vocal people screaming how this is not okay. That's my point. "Normal" human interactions are being cast as not okay by some vocal tech writers, which is what can create a mental minefield.
pseut 13y ago
>Gender dynamics are hard, for EVERYBODY. I know. But they're probably harder when you're also making less money and having your credentials questioned.

melindajb 13y ago

If you can override the animal instincts to kill other humans, why is it so hard to override your thoughts and just treat all other humans with the same respect you'd give your best friend, at least until you see a valid reason not to? No one is saying that getting a beer after work is bad, or telling jokes is bad, or that thinking is bad. this is hand waving. We're asking you, again, to a) understand that lots of drinking leads to situations where women are harassed; b) telling sexist, racist, homophobic jokes is not appropriate in any professional context, and that you should be human enough to override your animal instincts. To be frank, your post comes off as irrational, and immature. You sound very young, and very entitled.

your_throwaway 13y ago
With the same respect I treat my best friend? Well, first: my best friend is a woman. And could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a sexist joke? My aforementioned best friend (who I have had this conversation with) as well as most of the women friends I've had this conversation with agree that things like "dongle" jokes are hilarious. So are racist jokes (do you seriously not tell any racist jokes? Ever? Do you avoid all of contemporary stand up and sketch comedy while you're at it?) And very young. Huh? Like how young? Possibly right around the age of most of the people who are attending conferences and hackathons? Right around that 20-30 year old range that constantly gets touted as the age of startup founders on hacker news? I'm 29. Old by HN standards, but you're right: young.
- melindajb 13y ago
  Just because your best friend is a woman doesn't mean you're incapable of being a sexist. For example, she might be one of those women who enforce some pretty crappy old patriarchial shit. I have no idea. But it's not evidence you can use to say you aren't sexist. Are you trolling? I do not tell racist jokes. ever. period. Why would I ever risk offending someone I really care about for something so stupid? I enjoy Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, and Louis CK as much as the next person, but I make sure I understand why're they are funny, to laugh with them, not at them. your simplistic thinking really makes me question a lot about you. Are you very young also? Perhaps you haven't heard stories from people you respect about the pain they've suffered in silicon valley? Because otherwise you wouldn't be so flippant, and so defensive about such things.
  - your_throwaway 13y ago
    Enlighten me. And while you're at it: why is okay for Louis CK to make a racist joke, but not okay for you? If the joke is hurtful, then shouldn't you be against Louis CK telling it? Why are you okay with that? Why are you giving him support for doing something hurtful? And I didn't say I wasn't capable of being sexist because my best friend is a woman. I said that if I treated a woman at a conference the same way that I treated my best friend, I would probably come across as a creepy asshole. Similarly, if I treated some guy walking down the street the same way that I treat my best friend, I'd probably get labeled as a creepy asshole. I've known my best friend for over a decade. I'm close enough with her to have a shorthand for jokes, or mannerisms, that doesn't exist with random people I've just met. My point was that your post is using some extremely faulty reasoning. No I'm 12: who cares? What does it matter how old I am? Maybe I am a woman! Then what? Does what I'm saying depend on my age, or its content? Do you apply the same logic when assigning validity to things that men and women say? The content doesn't matter, just the person saying it? That's...dare I say it? Possibly pretty sexist of you.

lambda 13y ago

Dude, it's really not hard to have a technical conversation with someone and not come off as creepy. If you feel like you have to worry about this all the time, there's something seriously off about your interpersonal instincts. I'm a pretty socially awkward nerdy guy, and I've never had a problem with being able to have a technical conversation with a woman without being accused of "mansplaining", "being overly aggressive", being "screamed about on twitter" or the like. If all of those things are happening to you, you're probably going about it wrong. Remember, you hear about the worst incidents online. The things that make it to the news do so because they're newsworthy, not because they're commonplace. Since many of us are socially awkward nerds here, let me give you a few hints: Inviting someone for beers after a conference is not hitting on them. But if you're really worried it appearing that way, make sure you invite more than one person; it feels much more like an after-conference beer than an invitation to a date if there's a group of people. Complementing someone on what they're wearing? I complement my male coworkers on their new sneakers or spiffy new jackets sometimes; it's no more creepy to do the same for a female coworker. But I wouldn't do that to some guy I just met, only someone I've known for a while and already have a professional relationship with. If the first thing I said to a guy was a complement on his shoes, that would sound a little weird, wouldn't it, like I might be hitting on him? Same rule goes. Don't make a complement on a woman's clothes or appearance be the first thing you say to her, that makes it sound like you're hitting on her. But if you've known her a while and you notice that she's gotten a new haircut or new jacket, it's not a problem to mention it. Asking about someone's projects? How would you imagine that would sound like flirting? Just make sure you're actually interested in someone's projects, and not just using it as a "get to know you" before trying to ask them on a date.

your_throwaway 13y ago
We are literally on the exact same page. You're enumerating my point. Inviting somebody for beers isn't hitting on them, but I have been told by women exactly why this is not okay. (In conversations like this one. This sort of "hey that's not okay" doesn't ever seem to actually come up in real life) I agree that it's totally normal to compliment people on what they're wearing, and I, like you, do this to my coworkers all the time. Except, again, there are lots of vocal people screaming how this is not okay. That's my point. "Normal" human interactions are being cast as not okay by some vocal tech writers, which is what can create a mental minefield.

pseut 13y ago

>Gender dynamics are hard, for EVERYBODY. I know. But they're probably harder when you're also making less money and having your credentials questioned.