9 ms·

Model aircraft operators free to operate commercially in US, rules federal judge

331 points by dronehire 13y ago

chrisa 13y ago
After reading the pdf, I'm still not clear: does this mean UAVs can operate in regular airspace (above 400 ft) with proper licensing, or are they still (for now) limited to under 400 ft, and away from populated areas?
- swalsh 13y ago
  It just means we have to be selective about applications, but this sounds like a great starting point.
- jccooper 13y ago
  UAVs (UASs) can operate above 400 ft with a Certificate of Airworthiness (or similar.) However, the FAA will not yet issue you one, as they don't yet have to rules to do so. UAVs that qualify as "model aircraft" can operate in that domain, as they always could. But now commercial use doesn't automatically turn them into license-requiring UAVs.
Qworg 13y ago
IANAL, but can we get a reading of the actual decision? As much as I'd like to take this on face value, dronehire.org may have a bias.
- berberous 13y ago
  The article linked has a link to the actual decision: http://www.scribd.com/doc/211088332/Pirker-Decision http://www.scribd.com/doc/211088332/Pirker-Decision
  - Qworg 13y ago
    Yes, but IANAL. There's a reading above by not a lawyer as well, which was helpful.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- uptown 13y ago
  Did you even read the article at the link? It's in the first sentence.
vowelless 13y ago
Here is the FAA UAS initiative [1] In my experience (I don't deal with them directly, just an engineer), FAA is bullish on UAVs, but is obviously very cautious. This [2] is also a good read. [1] http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/ http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/ [2] "Integration of Civil UAS in National Airspace System": http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/media/uas_roadmap_2013.pdf http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/media/uas_roadmap_2...
smtddr 13y ago
Huh, so if Amazon really wants to start sending out those drones they no longer have any legal hurdles? I expect to hear stories of college kids capturing them before EOY.
- duaneb 13y ago
  I don't think that's a hurdle. I imagine that would be some form of trespassing onto amazon's very expensive property.
  - Tyrannosaurs 13y ago
    Yep, and college students have no historical record of law breaking or vandalism in the name of entertainment whatsoever.
    - Crito 13y ago
      Well society hasn't crumbled due to college students wrecking everything yet, so we must have figured out a way to deal with the drunk idiots. Perhaps some variation on the "If they break the law, arrest them for it." technique is being employed...
      - MiguelHudnandez 13y ago
        Plus, colleges need a way to trim the fat, so to speak. To eliminate groups of people that would attempt to steal a machine with a live network connection, GPS, several cameras, and surrounded by rapidly spinning blades. I say that jokingly, but this happened in Iran to a plane operated by the US military. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incide...
- ugexe 13y ago
  Im certain amazon is not living under the assumption that people capturing them won't be a problem, and I think its safe to assume they aren't going to release a bunch of easily stolen drones without coming up with a way to make it more difficult (much like the UPS driver who takes the keys out of his otherwise easy-to-steal truck).
cryptoz 13y ago
Okay, time to build drones full of atmosphere sensors! The weather forecast is about to get a lot better....this is excellent news for crowdsourcing remote data about the atmosphere. I've been pulling pressure measurements from smartphones for a while, but a core problem is that a lot of weather develops over areas of low smartphone density. Sending out drone fleets will be a most excellent solution; they're reusable, so you don't have to make 200M of them. They're connected and already carry many required sensors. They're coming down in price and at the start of a thriving commercial ecosystem. Can't wait to start building! Edit: I wrote about this idea last year: http://www.jacobsheehy.com/2013/03/living-in-the-future-startup-ideas/ http://www.jacobsheehy.com/2013/03/living-in-the-future-star...
- d23 13y ago
  Out of curiosity, how do you power them? I'm assuming solar isn't enough. Do they have to continually come down to re-charge?
  - cryptoz 13y ago
    Well, I do have a vision where solar power is actually enough, but that's certainly not possible today. This might work in 3-4 years, depending on what happens in battery tech and solar efficiency. Otherwise, I think you might have to build a network similar to Matternet [1] / Tesla Supercharger; making a ground-based charging infrastructure investment might be necessary to get started, even if that tech isn't necessary in 10 years. [1] Matternet is awesome. http://matternet.us/ http://matternet.us/
    - Lexarius 13y ago
      Have you considered buying solar-powered drones from Titan Aerospace before Facebook snatches them up? Probably a bit pricey, but they are marketed as atmospheric satellites.
      - cushychicken 13y ago
        Titan Aerospace's offerings are tailored for high altitude use - this gentleman is looking for drones flying under 400 feet. Different application.
MWil 13y ago
Without a law that gets passed otherwise, this also opens up the floodgates to full law enforcement use of drones in public/private airspace. If the sky's open for for commercial use, it's automatically available for law enforcement as well. I had hopes that there would be some rules/regulations in place first... edit: assuming the decision allowed use in populated areas, full disclosure that I haven't had a chance to actually read it yet
- MWil 13y ago
  edit: this was an administrative law judge's decision from the national transportation safety board aka not set in stone
swalsh 13y ago
YES! I have several business ideas that I've been sitting on because of the restrictions. Is there a good source someone here can hook me up with already made drones? I can do software, but i'm not really a hardware guy.
- larrydag 13y ago
  I would reach out to a local makerspace. There is a ton of DIY drone enthusiasts in the commumity.
- chrisa 13y ago
  http://3drobotics.com http://3drobotics.com has a number of options with open source autopilots
- dronehire 13y ago
  DJI and 3DR are two of the most popular manufacturers of RTF (ready-to-fly) drones. If you don't have much experience with flying model aircraft, I'd definitely recommend that you practise with a micro multicopter such as the Hubsan X4 H107C. You could also join a drone user group - see dugn.org - there's a group in San Francisco that is focused on startups.
  - swalsh 13y ago
    Thanks, i'm actually based out of Boston. I'll try to find some groups here.
roc 13y ago
This reads more like the recent Net Neutrality decision than anything else. It's less "Drones are free to operate commercially" and more "If the FAA wants to regulate (commercial) drones separately for any other model aircraft, they need to create explicit regulations that apply to them" What seems explicitly ruled against, is selectively interpreting existing regs as applying to an imprecise (and shifting) definition of "drone" and trying to use a "Policy Statement" as de facto law (by claiming a request for voluntary compliance, but then suing for non-compliance), without following the appropriate procedure or meeting all of the requirements of new regulation.
dougbright 13y ago
This is simply awesome news for startup/small business UAS operators in the US in the short term. I do have some concern, though, that this could cause the FAA to now rush the rule-making process which could result in half baked, ham fisted regulations. This is especially possible if we see several high profile accidents during this new free-for-all period. Cheap plug: if you want to play with aerial photography but are more of a software guy than a hardware guy, check out my embarrassingly buggy side project at http://airboss.io http://airboss.io. It's an app that lets you use an old Android phone mounted on a drone as a photography/video platform with real-time first person view streaming using WebRTC.
- biblio777 13y ago
  You seem to misunderstand you cannot commercially operate a UAS in the US. This is not "awesome news" for all your "disruptive" startups. You cannot "disrupt" the FAA and I highly suggest you do not attempt too; that path is littered with corpses. The FAA does not joke around and your little UAS is no where near up to the 50+ years of standards, processes and regulations in place for modern aircraft. Why do you think new aircraft manufacturers are not popping up every year? The ignorance and complete disrespect for an industry no one of this forumn truly understands is appalling. Your drones are not going to be delivery packages or flying passengers anytime soon (most modern airlines are not flown but "operated" like a giant computer anyways). That is about as close as it is going to get for awhile so dream on.
- superamit 13y ago
  AirBoss is really neat! Are you in SF? I'd love to see it in action. Can lend a Moto X for testing if you want to add to the database of phones, too.
coldcode 13y ago
Not really. It just means the FAA has to come up with rules just like for any other flying planes. No one wants drones flying into protected airspace, crashing into things, etc. It's not a sudden free for all. They just can't refuse to come up with rules because it's a drone. The rules could still be hard to meet.
- bpicolo 13y ago
  Can the rules be "they can't fly", or something so prohibitive that it makes it so?
  - jonknee 13y ago
    Sure. But then all sorts of things will be banned: footballs, baseballs, kites, model rockets, frisbees, conventional model aircraft, weather balloons, etc etc. The better way to do it is with common sense safety standards, certifications and clear rules on airspace.
kyrra 13y ago
From a different article[0], it sounds like the guy being sued in this case may have been operating the drone irresponsibly, which opens a window for legislators to put laws in place that will gives the FAA power to regulate drones: > Pirker operated the aircraft within about 50 feet of numerous individuals, about 20 feet of a crowded street, and within approximately 100 feet of an active heliport at UVA, the FAA alleged. One person had to take "evasive measures" to avoid being struck by the aircraft, the agency said. [0] http://m.kspr.com/nationalnews/Drone-pilot-wins-case-against-FAA/21053270_24851746 http://m.kspr.com/nationalnews/Drone-pilot-wins-case-against...
- ctdonath 13y ago
  Stroke of a pen, law of the land.
- tensafefrogs 13y ago
  You can watch the video of the flight that triggered the lawsuit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4 Definitely some questionable flying in my opinion.
  - zobzu 13y ago
    yeah even for an experienced pilot, in fact, everyone knows - its not if you crash, its when you crash. as a pedestrian i'd be pissed if the wing was busing me at a couple of feet above my head. its reckless.
coin 13y ago
I have yet to see a practical solution that provides separation between UAV and manned aircraft. All flights under VFR are responsible for their own separation by way of see-and-be-seen. I have yet to see a UAV that can visually recognize an approaching aircraft and take evasive action.
- tim333 13y ago
  Perhaps do the separation by height above the ground? In most of the world light aircraft are not supposed to fly below 500ft apart from landing. You could limit drones to flying below 200ft say. It would also reduce the impact when they pack up and crash on you!
SpacemanSpiff 13y ago
So as a pilot of a manned aircraft what does this mean for the safety of my flights? Do I need to start trying to avoid unlicensed, unlit, and unannounced drone aircraft whenever I'm below 400ft AGL? Edit: Thanks to everyone below for your thoughtful comments. My replies are as follows: 1) Regarding model aircraft - I would argue that the low density of these operations at the moment is what has prevented an incident between a manned aircraft and model aircraft. Also the nature of radio control has necessitated that the model aircraft generally be withing sight range of the operator, and as such the operator is still able to avoid other aircraft to some extent. This may not be the case for automated drones. 2) Regarding 400 ft AGL. How do I know that the drone operator won't accidentally end up at 600ft+ AGL (for example), which happens to be at the low end of a standard traffic pattern altitude (800ft)? As far as I know there's no way to know what altitude your drone is above the ground except possibly GPS which does not always give you an accurate MSL (or AGL) altitude. Will all drone operators in populated areas be made aware of local air traffic patterns? What if I want to exercise my privilege to operate below 500 ft. AGL in unpopulated areas? I can think of a lot of cases where I've been below 400ft AGL during takeoff and landing while over densely populated areas. My perception is that automated drones with no mechanism to avoid manned aircraft at or near traffic pattern altitude at densely populated locations is a big problem.
- cjensen 13y ago
  Remote-controlled model airplane have long existed at those altitudes. How do you cope with them?
  - gnaffle 13y ago
    It's all about how widespread they are. What was before a pretty limited hobby where most people would know about and be mindful of light aircraft (and sometimes share airstrips with them), might turn into a real problem when prices come down and anyone can operate them without much training, as modern drones can with gyro and GPS stabilization.
- mikegreen 13y ago
  This is where tactical regulations need created and applied. The ultralight world operates in loose regulations and has generally worked well with the airspace system - basically keeping them out of controlled airspace, and having them operate as other aircraft in non-controlled environments. As a pilot, you know you won't be at 400ft AGL at all except landing, or crop dusting, or buzzing open areas of uninhabited land. And, you know that there is no control of that airspace and anything could be flying in it today, sans drone movement. RC aircraft have had 'recommended regulations' [1] since 1981 [2], and I am struggling to remember the last time I heard of an RC vs piloted plane incident (yes, sure, we pilots see them near the airport but they mind themselves under pattern altitude, and don't buzz the real runways). Those regulations are seemingly benign to the community's enjoyment. I can see having UAV operators such as photog or surveillance operate under a similar set of guidelines as a protection to the people. I have a drone and a real airplane - I would not appreciate my calm day at the park being threatened with a drone buzzing at 15 feet, nor a real plane. [1] "Outlines, and encourages voluntary compliance with, safety standards for model aircraft operators." [2] http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/91-57.pdf http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/9...
jccooper 13y ago
It's not quite so big as the headline, but it's still good. Here's the scoop: The FAA has long had rules for model aircraft, which would include many small "drones", and under which you can personally operate them now. You're supposed to stay low and away from stuff you could damage. They also (as of fairly recently) have some rules for UAS (unmanned aerial systems) that are more like the rules for real aircraft, and are working on integrating them into real airspace. Thus a UAS requires a certificate and permission to fly--but they're still working on how to do that, so you can't get one yet. If you were to buy your own Predator you couldn't fly it, 'cause it might run into an airliner. Fair enough. However, they also declared that commercial use of an otherwise-model aircraft turned it into a full UAS, which you currently cannot fly. So you could use a quadrotor to take aerial photos--but you could not get paid for it. This ruling, in a nice display of common sense, disposes of this last bit, making operation of "model aircraft" the same regardless of intent. You still have to fly safely, and in limited space, but now you can get paid for quadrotor photography, as the FAA no longer has a basis to fine you. You still cannot fly that Predator, though. Sorry. But I'd be careful before making too much investment based on this decision. At the very least, check into how the appeals process on a ruling like this works; dunno how final it is. You'll also want to check carefully to make sure your intended use can be performed safely by model aircraft; fully unmanned systems probably aren't going to pass muster (unless perhaps your automated avoidance system is really good).
- guelo 13y ago
  What's the difference between model aircraft and UAS? Is it line of sight flying?
  - 001sky 13y ago
    Looks pretty grey "There are already hobbyists that operate "drones" by any reasonable definition. The term in the hobby is "FPV" (First Person View) - you install a camera and a transmitter on your aircraft and pilot it from a first-person perspective using a monitor on the ground. The radios on these operate by line-of-sight, but the range is far beyond visual range. You can find plenty of videos on Youtube just searching for "fpv radio control" or variations thereof. Operation of these for recreational purposes is currently unrestricted in the US. This may also change." http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=673706 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=673706
damon_c 13y ago
I hope when automated delivery is a reality, those of us who live on high floors of apartment buildings can affix some machine identifiable sticker to the outside of our chosen delivery window. When that happens, I will know I'm living in the future.
logfromblammo 13y ago
I am not a pilot. But I imagine that there should be not problems flying a piloted unmanned aircraft in uncontrolled airspace--which is, I believe, usually under 1200' AGL. If you're operating remotely without a camera, you keep the craft within line of sight, and double the visibility distance for a manned aircraft. Otherwise, you operate by IFR using whatever telemetry you get back. With a drone, however, I'd think that operating in controlled airspace would require extensive collision avoidance and fault recovery software, which would have to be tested and certified by experienced pilots. There is a difference between drones and remotely piloted aircraft, and I certainly hope that the journalists can learn it before we end up with another "hacker" situation.
skue 13y ago
This appears to be the video that upset the FAA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4#t=17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4#t=17 And here is the complaint the FAA originally filed, which includes flying through crowded streets, flying through a tunnel with traffic, flying as high as 1500ft AGL, flying at an individual causing them to jump aside [apparently moments before crashing into a hedge], and flying within 100ft of the UVA Medical Center's heliport [though the video was being filmed for UVA]. http://www.suasnews.com/2013/10/25471/the-faas-complaint-against-trappy/ http://www.suasnews.com/2013/10/25471/the-faas-complaint-aga...
- efuquen 13y ago
  Man, that looked rather dangerous and the pilot seemed to have a complete disregard for potentially crashing into buildings and harming someone if that thing fell to the ground or went through a window. If he was just meandering around in what would have looked like a safe manner I wouldn't care as much, but intentionally getting extremely close to buildings and doing acrobatics in a populated area seems pretty reckless.
  - bnzelener 13y ago
    To my knowledge, "Trappy" (nickname of the pilot) is one of the best RC pilots around. He flies for Team Blacksheep, and is a big figure in the drone community for encouraging safety, education, and progressing the tech. He's definitely known for pushing the envelope on reckless flight, but I get the sense that he would take responsibility if something happened. These flying wings (foam plane model) absorb a lot of force on impact. Even with the GoPros and all radio equipment loaded on. Aside from causing commotion, I think it's unlikely that you'd severely injure someone. Possible, but unlikely. A quad-rotor heli falling out of the sky would really hurt, though.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - elliottkember 13y ago
      The issue is the example being set. Trappy is definitely one of the best, but his videos don't demonstrate his hours of experience, or safety considerations, to a novice pilot. The affordability of the machine plus some examples of fancy flying are sure to put dangerous machines in the hands of idiots, and that's best avoided. Remember - these things fly out of the box with no training. Trappy also has access to many more multicopter spares than the rest of us. This may have something to do with his reckless flying!
blutack 13y ago
This sounds similar to the UK's CAP722, which is the basis for commercial UAS flying over here. As jccooper said, the immediate industries affected by this will be those which gather imagery or video. In the UK, there is a restriction against flying out of line of sight. Most operators will fly using a GPS lock for stability but will not be using video streams from the aircraft for anything other than framing shots. Here, commercial UAS are often used as a low-cost, faster alternative to scaffolding; I recently got up a 4am to help an operator survey the exterior of an old hotel in the centre of a large city, looking for damaged pipes. He did the entire hotel in the course of three 3 hour sessions.
m0llusk 13y ago
It seems like this is leading to some kind of wireless protocol for peer to peer communication of position, orientation, speed, flight plan, and other such so that drones and other aircraft can avoid conflicts with each other.
marktangotango 13y ago
Is anyone doing an orbiting UAV as a signal transponder for microwave radio? Ie line of site networking. Internet off the commercial backbones. The privacy and security implication should be clear.
- jrockway 13y ago
  Sure. Just bounce your signal off the moon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EME_(communications) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EME_(communications) (There are also plenty of amateur satellites that you can use for communication. You won't like the rules, though: no encryption. You also won't like the realities of powering a radio transmitter in space: with a few minutes of sun per orbit onto a tiny solar panel, you get less radio output power than your WiFi network has. If only some company were using tethered balloons to provide networking...)
  - marktangotango 13y ago
    An advantage aerial over satellite is lower latency.
biblio777 13y ago
Let's stick with some facts (I'm a pilot and work closely with the FAA for my dayjob so I know a bit about this space) ... - The FAA is responsible for the safety of U.S. airspace from the ground up. This misperception may originate with the idea that manned aircraft generally must stay at least 500 feet above the ground. - There are no shades of gray in FAA regulations. Anyone who wants to fly an aircraft—manned or unmanned—in U.S. airspace needs some level of FAA approval. Private sector (civil) users can obtain an experimental airworthiness certificate to conduct research and development, training and flight demonstrations. Commercial UAS operations are limited and require the operator to have certified aircraft and pilots, as well as operating approval. ... The FAA reviews and approves UAS operations over densely-populated areas on a case-by-case basis. - In the 2012 FAA reauthorization legislation, Congress told the FAA to come up with a plan for 'safe integration' of UAS by September 30, 2015. Safe integration will be incremental. So don't get too excited your drones won't be taking the skies anytime soon.
- lholoubek 13y ago
  It appears this issue is exactly what the decision addressed. At issue was whether the definition of "aircraft" applied to the model aircraft that Mr. Pirker was flying. You're correct in stating that every aircraft, as defined under the regulations, must have FAA approval (in most cases, a COA). The judge concluded specifically that "aircraft as defined in 14 CFR Part 1, Section 1.1 does not include model aircraft.[1] The conclusion to be drawn is that the FAA approval process does not apply to model aircraft. This finding was in addition to finding that the FAA policies on model aircraft - including the ban on commercial use - are not legally enforceable. [1]"Neither the Part 1, Section. 1.1, or the 49 U.S.C. Section 40102(a)(6) definitions of "aircraft" are applicable to, or include a model aircraft within their respective definition."
  - commandar 13y ago
    And one of the issues here is that the existing regulations didn't make much sense. The exact same aircraft that would be considered a model aircraft if you would fly as a hobbyist would suddenly be classified as a UAS the instant you took any payment to fly it. So, I could go out to a field and zoom around a field and record footage to my heart's content and be completely kosher. But if my buddy decided it'd be neat to have a photo of his neighborhood and gives me $5 to fly over and snap one, I'm illegally operating a UAS. Absolutely nothing has changed in terms of what the aircraft is and the level of danger it does or does not pose.
andymoe 13y ago
Here at my little company Fighting Walrus [1] (we make a radio accessory so small commercial UAVs can be controlled via iPad) we are really excited that there has been some forward movement on the legal front. My personal view has always been that commercial drone use would be worked out in the courts before the FAA really got a handle on their (much delayed) roadmap for integrating them into the national airspace. However I would caution that the FAA is probably going to appeal the decision to the full five member safety board. The FAA is not going to give up regulatory control of this class of small unmanned aerial vehicles (SUAVs) easily. [1] http://www.fightingwalrus.com http://www.fightingwalrus.com ps. If this stuff interests you come to the SF Drones Startup Meetup my Co-Founder Bryan organizes - http://www.meetup.com/SF-Drones-Startup-Meetup http://www.meetup.com/SF-Drones-Startup-Meetup (About 700 members so far!)
sitkack 13y ago
Just tell me if the burrito deliver network is now possible!!
biblio777 13y ago
This is ridiculous. The coming (and fictitious) drone/UAS revolution every little rich punk in Silicon Valley is just that ... day dreaming. I cannot wait to watch the FAA mow down your dreams. You have NO idea the power of the organization you are dealing with and their commitment to safety. UAS are not and will not be (for decades) up to the FAA standards. If you are an investor putting money behind these outlandish businesses proposed here then you are even stupider than I thought.
- zobzu 13y ago
  somebody's jealous.
griffendoor 13y ago
What if I got 100 drones that picked up a tarp and carried me around (i.e. use them for transport, claiming that they carry the tarp and I just happen to be on it)? Or how about using drones in mass by a non-profit to intimidate at political gatherings? I like drones, but I have a feeling this is a decision that will get overturned within 5 years.
lsiebert 13y ago
I read the original motion for this, and it's a good read. The government has some pretty big restrictions on binding regulations from agencies. Restrictions that make a lot of sense when you realize that most law is made by elected officials with constituents, ie representative democracy. Regulations aren't made like that, so you have a lot of rules to prevent abuse. One of the restrictions is you need to have defined periods for public comment on new regulations. Which the FAA did not do, as I understand things. It just came up with new rules without following the defined regulatory process. If for no other reason then that, the UAV rules were invalid.
lsiebert 13y ago
I read the original motion for this, and it's a good read. The government has some pretty big restrictions on binding regulations from agencies. Restrictions that make a lot of sense when you realize that most law is made by elected officials with constituents, ie representative democracy. Regulations aren't made like that, so you have a lot of rules to prevent abuse. One of the restrictions is you need to have defined periods for public comment on new regulations. Which the FAA did not do, as I understand things. It just came up with new rules without following the defined regulatory process. If for no other reason then that, the UAV rules were invalid.
andymoe 13y ago
So as expected (by me at least) the ruling has been appealed by the FAA and will go to the full NTSB so the opinion is stayed until the board rules: http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=15894 http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId... I think the FAA may lose the appeal but we will have to wait and see. This is really political for the FAA; they want to be in control of this area as much as possible so they will fight very hard to get the lower court ruling overturned. There is a large heated discussions thread on DIYDrones.com [1] if anyone is interested in opinions of folks with boots on the ground so to speak. [1] http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/commercial-drones-are-legal-in-the-us-court-roles http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/commercial-drones-are-le...
ilovecookies 13y ago
Now this suddenly became a valid activity for your CV. http://nodecopter.com/ http://nodecopter.com/

331 points by dronehire 13y ago

After reading the pdf, I'm still not clear: does this mean UAVs can operate in regular airspace (above 400 ft) with proper licensing, or are they still (for now) limited to under 400 ft, and away from populated areas?

swalsh 13y ago
It just means we have to be selective about applications, but this sounds like a great starting point.
jccooper 13y ago
UAVs (UASs) can operate above 400 ft with a Certificate of Airworthiness (or similar.) However, the FAA will not yet issue you one, as they don't yet have to rules to do so. UAVs that qualify as "model aircraft" can operate in that domain, as they always could. But now commercial use doesn't automatically turn them into license-requiring UAVs.

Qworg 13y ago

IANAL, but can we get a reading of the actual decision? As much as I'd like to take this on face value, dronehire.org may have a bias.

berberous 13y ago
The article linked has a link to the actual decision: http://www.scribd.com/doc/211088332/Pirker-Decision http://www.scribd.com/doc/211088332/Pirker-Decision
- Qworg 13y ago
  Yes, but IANAL. There's a reading above by not a lawyer as well, which was helpful.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

uptown 13y ago
Did you even read the article at the link? It's in the first sentence.

vowelless 13y ago

Here is the FAA UAS initiative [1] In my experience (I don't deal with them directly, just an engineer), FAA is bullish on UAVs, but is obviously very cautious. This [2] is also a good read. [1] http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/ http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/ [2] "Integration of Civil UAS in National Airspace System": http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/media/uas_roadmap_2013.pdf http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/media/uas_roadmap_2...

smtddr 13y ago

Huh, so if Amazon really wants to start sending out those drones they no longer have any legal hurdles? I expect to hear stories of college kids capturing them before EOY.

duaneb 13y ago
I don't think that's a hurdle. I imagine that would be some form of trespassing onto amazon's very expensive property.
- Tyrannosaurs 13y ago
  Yep, and college students have no historical record of law breaking or vandalism in the name of entertainment whatsoever.
  - Crito 13y ago
    Well society hasn't crumbled due to college students wrecking everything yet, so we must have figured out a way to deal with the drunk idiots. Perhaps some variation on the "If they break the law, arrest them for it." technique is being employed...
    - MiguelHudnandez 13y ago
      Plus, colleges need a way to trim the fat, so to speak. To eliminate groups of people that would attempt to steal a machine with a live network connection, GPS, several cameras, and surrounded by rapidly spinning blades. I say that jokingly, but this happened in Iran to a plane operated by the US military. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incide...
ugexe 13y ago
Im certain amazon is not living under the assumption that people capturing them won't be a problem, and I think its safe to assume they aren't going to release a bunch of easily stolen drones without coming up with a way to make it more difficult (much like the UPS driver who takes the keys out of his otherwise easy-to-steal truck).

cryptoz 13y ago

Okay, time to build drones full of atmosphere sensors! The weather forecast is about to get a lot better....this is excellent news for crowdsourcing remote data about the atmosphere. I've been pulling pressure measurements from smartphones for a while, but a core problem is that a lot of weather develops over areas of low smartphone density. Sending out drone fleets will be a most excellent solution; they're reusable, so you don't have to make 200M of them. They're connected and already carry many required sensors. They're coming down in price and at the start of a thriving commercial ecosystem. Can't wait to start building! Edit: I wrote about this idea last year: http://www.jacobsheehy.com/2013/03/living-in-the-future-startup-ideas/ http://www.jacobsheehy.com/2013/03/living-in-the-future-star...

d23 13y ago
Out of curiosity, how do you power them? I'm assuming solar isn't enough. Do they have to continually come down to re-charge?
- cryptoz 13y ago
  Well, I do have a vision where solar power is actually enough, but that's certainly not possible today. This might work in 3-4 years, depending on what happens in battery tech and solar efficiency. Otherwise, I think you might have to build a network similar to Matternet [1] / Tesla Supercharger; making a ground-based charging infrastructure investment might be necessary to get started, even if that tech isn't necessary in 10 years. [1] Matternet is awesome. http://matternet.us/ http://matternet.us/
  - Lexarius 13y ago
    Have you considered buying solar-powered drones from Titan Aerospace before Facebook snatches them up? Probably a bit pricey, but they are marketed as atmospheric satellites.
    - cushychicken 13y ago
      Titan Aerospace's offerings are tailored for high altitude use - this gentleman is looking for drones flying under 400 feet. Different application.

MWil 13y ago

Without a law that gets passed otherwise, this also opens up the floodgates to full law enforcement use of drones in public/private airspace. If the sky's open for for commercial use, it's automatically available for law enforcement as well. I had hopes that there would be some rules/regulations in place first... edit: assuming the decision allowed use in populated areas, full disclosure that I haven't had a chance to actually read it yet

MWil 13y ago
edit: this was an administrative law judge's decision from the national transportation safety board aka not set in stone

swalsh 13y ago

YES! I have several business ideas that I've been sitting on because of the restrictions. Is there a good source someone here can hook me up with already made drones? I can do software, but i'm not really a hardware guy.

larrydag 13y ago
I would reach out to a local makerspace. There is a ton of DIY drone enthusiasts in the commumity.
chrisa 13y ago
http://3drobotics.com http://3drobotics.com has a number of options with open source autopilots
dronehire 13y ago
DJI and 3DR are two of the most popular manufacturers of RTF (ready-to-fly) drones. If you don't have much experience with flying model aircraft, I'd definitely recommend that you practise with a micro multicopter such as the Hubsan X4 H107C. You could also join a drone user group - see dugn.org - there's a group in San Francisco that is focused on startups.
- swalsh 13y ago
  Thanks, i'm actually based out of Boston. I'll try to find some groups here.

roc 13y ago

This reads more like the recent Net Neutrality decision than anything else. It's less "Drones are free to operate commercially" and more "If the FAA wants to regulate (commercial) drones separately for any other model aircraft, they need to create explicit regulations that apply to them" What seems explicitly ruled against, is selectively interpreting existing regs as applying to an imprecise (and shifting) definition of "drone" and trying to use a "Policy Statement" as de facto law (by claiming a request for voluntary compliance, but then suing for non-compliance), without following the appropriate procedure or meeting all of the requirements of new regulation.

dougbright 13y ago

This is simply awesome news for startup/small business UAS operators in the US in the short term. I do have some concern, though, that this could cause the FAA to now rush the rule-making process which could result in half baked, ham fisted regulations. This is especially possible if we see several high profile accidents during this new free-for-all period. Cheap plug: if you want to play with aerial photography but are more of a software guy than a hardware guy, check out my embarrassingly buggy side project at http://airboss.io http://airboss.io. It's an app that lets you use an old Android phone mounted on a drone as a photography/video platform with real-time first person view streaming using WebRTC.

biblio777 13y ago
You seem to misunderstand you cannot commercially operate a UAS in the US. This is not "awesome news" for all your "disruptive" startups. You cannot "disrupt" the FAA and I highly suggest you do not attempt too; that path is littered with corpses. The FAA does not joke around and your little UAS is no where near up to the 50+ years of standards, processes and regulations in place for modern aircraft. Why do you think new aircraft manufacturers are not popping up every year? The ignorance and complete disrespect for an industry no one of this forumn truly understands is appalling. Your drones are not going to be delivery packages or flying passengers anytime soon (most modern airlines are not flown but "operated" like a giant computer anyways). That is about as close as it is going to get for awhile so dream on.
superamit 13y ago
AirBoss is really neat! Are you in SF? I'd love to see it in action. Can lend a Moto X for testing if you want to add to the database of phones, too.

coldcode 13y ago

Not really. It just means the FAA has to come up with rules just like for any other flying planes. No one wants drones flying into protected airspace, crashing into things, etc. It's not a sudden free for all. They just can't refuse to come up with rules because it's a drone. The rules could still be hard to meet.

bpicolo 13y ago
Can the rules be "they can't fly", or something so prohibitive that it makes it so?
- jonknee 13y ago
  Sure. But then all sorts of things will be banned: footballs, baseballs, kites, model rockets, frisbees, conventional model aircraft, weather balloons, etc etc. The better way to do it is with common sense safety standards, certifications and clear rules on airspace.

kyrra 13y ago

From a different article[0], it sounds like the guy being sued in this case may have been operating the drone irresponsibly, which opens a window for legislators to put laws in place that will gives the FAA power to regulate drones: > Pirker operated the aircraft within about 50 feet of numerous individuals, about 20 feet of a crowded street, and within approximately 100 feet of an active heliport at UVA, the FAA alleged. One person had to take "evasive measures" to avoid being struck by the aircraft, the agency said. [0] http://m.kspr.com/nationalnews/Drone-pilot-wins-case-against-FAA/21053270_24851746 http://m.kspr.com/nationalnews/Drone-pilot-wins-case-against...

ctdonath 13y ago
Stroke of a pen, law of the land.
tensafefrogs 13y ago
You can watch the video of the flight that triggered the lawsuit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4 Definitely some questionable flying in my opinion.
- zobzu 13y ago
  yeah even for an experienced pilot, in fact, everyone knows - its not if you crash, its when you crash. as a pedestrian i'd be pissed if the wing was busing me at a couple of feet above my head. its reckless.

coin 13y ago

I have yet to see a practical solution that provides separation between UAV and manned aircraft. All flights under VFR are responsible for their own separation by way of see-and-be-seen. I have yet to see a UAV that can visually recognize an approaching aircraft and take evasive action.

tim333 13y ago
Perhaps do the separation by height above the ground? In most of the world light aircraft are not supposed to fly below 500ft apart from landing. You could limit drones to flying below 200ft say. It would also reduce the impact when they pack up and crash on you!

SpacemanSpiff 13y ago

So as a pilot of a manned aircraft what does this mean for the safety of my flights? Do I need to start trying to avoid unlicensed, unlit, and unannounced drone aircraft whenever I'm below 400ft AGL? Edit: Thanks to everyone below for your thoughtful comments. My replies are as follows: 1) Regarding model aircraft - I would argue that the low density of these operations at the moment is what has prevented an incident between a manned aircraft and model aircraft. Also the nature of radio control has necessitated that the model aircraft generally be withing sight range of the operator, and as such the operator is still able to avoid other aircraft to some extent. This may not be the case for automated drones. 2) Regarding 400 ft AGL. How do I know that the drone operator won't accidentally end up at 600ft+ AGL (for example), which happens to be at the low end of a standard traffic pattern altitude (800ft)? As far as I know there's no way to know what altitude your drone is above the ground except possibly GPS which does not always give you an accurate MSL (or AGL) altitude. Will all drone operators in populated areas be made aware of local air traffic patterns? What if I want to exercise my privilege to operate below 500 ft. AGL in unpopulated areas? I can think of a lot of cases where I've been below 400ft AGL during takeoff and landing while over densely populated areas. My perception is that automated drones with no mechanism to avoid manned aircraft at or near traffic pattern altitude at densely populated locations is a big problem.

cjensen 13y ago
Remote-controlled model airplane have long existed at those altitudes. How do you cope with them?
- gnaffle 13y ago
  It's all about how widespread they are. What was before a pretty limited hobby where most people would know about and be mindful of light aircraft (and sometimes share airstrips with them), might turn into a real problem when prices come down and anyone can operate them without much training, as modern drones can with gyro and GPS stabilization.
mikegreen 13y ago
This is where tactical regulations need created and applied. The ultralight world operates in loose regulations and has generally worked well with the airspace system - basically keeping them out of controlled airspace, and having them operate as other aircraft in non-controlled environments. As a pilot, you know you won't be at 400ft AGL at all except landing, or crop dusting, or buzzing open areas of uninhabited land. And, you know that there is no control of that airspace and anything could be flying in it today, sans drone movement. RC aircraft have had 'recommended regulations' [1] since 1981 [2], and I am struggling to remember the last time I heard of an RC vs piloted plane incident (yes, sure, we pilots see them near the airport but they mind themselves under pattern altitude, and don't buzz the real runways). Those regulations are seemingly benign to the community's enjoyment. I can see having UAV operators such as photog or surveillance operate under a similar set of guidelines as a protection to the people. I have a drone and a real airplane - I would not appreciate my calm day at the park being threatened with a drone buzzing at 15 feet, nor a real plane. [1] "Outlines, and encourages voluntary compliance with, safety standards for model aircraft operators." [2] http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/91-57.pdf http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/9...

jccooper 13y ago

It's not quite so big as the headline, but it's still good. Here's the scoop: The FAA has long had rules for model aircraft, which would include many small "drones", and under which you can personally operate them now. You're supposed to stay low and away from stuff you could damage. They also (as of fairly recently) have some rules for UAS (unmanned aerial systems) that are more like the rules for real aircraft, and are working on integrating them into real airspace. Thus a UAS requires a certificate and permission to fly--but they're still working on how to do that, so you can't get one yet. If you were to buy your own Predator you couldn't fly it, 'cause it might run into an airliner. Fair enough. However, they also declared that commercial use of an otherwise-model aircraft turned it into a full UAS, which you currently cannot fly. So you could use a quadrotor to take aerial photos--but you could not get paid for it. This ruling, in a nice display of common sense, disposes of this last bit, making operation of "model aircraft" the same regardless of intent. You still have to fly safely, and in limited space, but now you can get paid for quadrotor photography, as the FAA no longer has a basis to fine you. You still cannot fly that Predator, though. Sorry. But I'd be careful before making too much investment based on this decision. At the very least, check into how the appeals process on a ruling like this works; dunno how final it is. You'll also want to check carefully to make sure your intended use can be performed safely by model aircraft; fully unmanned systems probably aren't going to pass muster (unless perhaps your automated avoidance system is really good).

guelo 13y ago
What's the difference between model aircraft and UAS? Is it line of sight flying?
- 001sky 13y ago
  Looks pretty grey "There are already hobbyists that operate "drones" by any reasonable definition. The term in the hobby is "FPV" (First Person View) - you install a camera and a transmitter on your aircraft and pilot it from a first-person perspective using a monitor on the ground. The radios on these operate by line-of-sight, but the range is far beyond visual range. You can find plenty of videos on Youtube just searching for "fpv radio control" or variations thereof. Operation of these for recreational purposes is currently unrestricted in the US. This may also change." http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=673706 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=673706

damon_c 13y ago

I hope when automated delivery is a reality, those of us who live on high floors of apartment buildings can affix some machine identifiable sticker to the outside of our chosen delivery window. When that happens, I will know I'm living in the future.

logfromblammo 13y ago

I am not a pilot. But I imagine that there should be not problems flying a piloted unmanned aircraft in uncontrolled airspace--which is, I believe, usually under 1200' AGL. If you're operating remotely without a camera, you keep the craft within line of sight, and double the visibility distance for a manned aircraft. Otherwise, you operate by IFR using whatever telemetry you get back. With a drone, however, I'd think that operating in controlled airspace would require extensive collision avoidance and fault recovery software, which would have to be tested and certified by experienced pilots. There is a difference between drones and remotely piloted aircraft, and I certainly hope that the journalists can learn it before we end up with another "hacker" situation.

skue 13y ago

This appears to be the video that upset the FAA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4#t=17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4#t=17 And here is the complaint the FAA originally filed, which includes flying through crowded streets, flying through a tunnel with traffic, flying as high as 1500ft AGL, flying at an individual causing them to jump aside [apparently moments before crashing into a hedge], and flying within 100ft of the UVA Medical Center's heliport [though the video was being filmed for UVA]. http://www.suasnews.com/2013/10/25471/the-faas-complaint-against-trappy/ http://www.suasnews.com/2013/10/25471/the-faas-complaint-aga...

efuquen 13y ago
Man, that looked rather dangerous and the pilot seemed to have a complete disregard for potentially crashing into buildings and harming someone if that thing fell to the ground or went through a window. If he was just meandering around in what would have looked like a safe manner I wouldn't care as much, but intentionally getting extremely close to buildings and doing acrobatics in a populated area seems pretty reckless.
- bnzelener 13y ago
  To my knowledge, "Trappy" (nickname of the pilot) is one of the best RC pilots around. He flies for Team Blacksheep, and is a big figure in the drone community for encouraging safety, education, and progressing the tech. He's definitely known for pushing the envelope on reckless flight, but I get the sense that he would take responsibility if something happened. These flying wings (foam plane model) absorb a lot of force on impact. Even with the GoPros and all radio equipment loaded on. Aside from causing commotion, I think it's unlikely that you'd severely injure someone. Possible, but unlikely. A quad-rotor heli falling out of the sky would really hurt, though.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - elliottkember 13y ago
    The issue is the example being set. Trappy is definitely one of the best, but his videos don't demonstrate his hours of experience, or safety considerations, to a novice pilot. The affordability of the machine plus some examples of fancy flying are sure to put dangerous machines in the hands of idiots, and that's best avoided. Remember - these things fly out of the box with no training. Trappy also has access to many more multicopter spares than the rest of us. This may have something to do with his reckless flying!

blutack 13y ago

This sounds similar to the UK's CAP722, which is the basis for commercial UAS flying over here. As jccooper said, the immediate industries affected by this will be those which gather imagery or video. In the UK, there is a restriction against flying out of line of sight. Most operators will fly using a GPS lock for stability but will not be using video streams from the aircraft for anything other than framing shots. Here, commercial UAS are often used as a low-cost, faster alternative to scaffolding; I recently got up a 4am to help an operator survey the exterior of an old hotel in the centre of a large city, looking for damaged pipes. He did the entire hotel in the course of three 3 hour sessions.

m0llusk 13y ago

It seems like this is leading to some kind of wireless protocol for peer to peer communication of position, orientation, speed, flight plan, and other such so that drones and other aircraft can avoid conflicts with each other.

marktangotango 13y ago

Is anyone doing an orbiting UAV as a signal transponder for microwave radio? Ie line of site networking. Internet off the commercial backbones. The privacy and security implication should be clear.

jrockway 13y ago
Sure. Just bounce your signal off the moon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EME_(communications) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EME_(communications) (There are also plenty of amateur satellites that you can use for communication. You won't like the rules, though: no encryption. You also won't like the realities of powering a radio transmitter in space: with a few minutes of sun per orbit onto a tiny solar panel, you get less radio output power than your WiFi network has. If only some company were using tethered balloons to provide networking...)
- marktangotango 13y ago
  An advantage aerial over satellite is lower latency.

biblio777 13y ago

Let's stick with some facts (I'm a pilot and work closely with the FAA for my dayjob so I know a bit about this space) ... - The FAA is responsible for the safety of U.S. airspace from the ground up. This misperception may originate with the idea that manned aircraft generally must stay at least 500 feet above the ground. - There are no shades of gray in FAA regulations. Anyone who wants to fly an aircraft—manned or unmanned—in U.S. airspace needs some level of FAA approval. Private sector (civil) users can obtain an experimental airworthiness certificate to conduct research and development, training and flight demonstrations. Commercial UAS operations are limited and require the operator to have certified aircraft and pilots, as well as operating approval. ... The FAA reviews and approves UAS operations over densely-populated areas on a case-by-case basis. - In the 2012 FAA reauthorization legislation, Congress told the FAA to come up with a plan for 'safe integration' of UAS by September 30, 2015. Safe integration will be incremental. So don't get too excited your drones won't be taking the skies anytime soon.

lholoubek 13y ago
It appears this issue is exactly what the decision addressed. At issue was whether the definition of "aircraft" applied to the model aircraft that Mr. Pirker was flying. You're correct in stating that every aircraft, as defined under the regulations, must have FAA approval (in most cases, a COA). The judge concluded specifically that "aircraft as defined in 14 CFR Part 1, Section 1.1 does not include model aircraft.[1] The conclusion to be drawn is that the FAA approval process does not apply to model aircraft. This finding was in addition to finding that the FAA policies on model aircraft - including the ban on commercial use - are not legally enforceable. [1]"Neither the Part 1, Section. 1.1, or the 49 U.S.C. Section 40102(a)(6) definitions of "aircraft" are applicable to, or include a model aircraft within their respective definition."
- commandar 13y ago
  And one of the issues here is that the existing regulations didn't make much sense. The exact same aircraft that would be considered a model aircraft if you would fly as a hobbyist would suddenly be classified as a UAS the instant you took any payment to fly it. So, I could go out to a field and zoom around a field and record footage to my heart's content and be completely kosher. But if my buddy decided it'd be neat to have a photo of his neighborhood and gives me $5 to fly over and snap one, I'm illegally operating a UAS. Absolutely nothing has changed in terms of what the aircraft is and the level of danger it does or does not pose.

andymoe 13y ago

Here at my little company Fighting Walrus [1] (we make a radio accessory so small commercial UAVs can be controlled via iPad) we are really excited that there has been some forward movement on the legal front. My personal view has always been that commercial drone use would be worked out in the courts before the FAA really got a handle on their (much delayed) roadmap for integrating them into the national airspace. However I would caution that the FAA is probably going to appeal the decision to the full five member safety board. The FAA is not going to give up regulatory control of this class of small unmanned aerial vehicles (SUAVs) easily. [1] http://www.fightingwalrus.com http://www.fightingwalrus.com ps. If this stuff interests you come to the SF Drones Startup Meetup my Co-Founder Bryan organizes - http://www.meetup.com/SF-Drones-Startup-Meetup http://www.meetup.com/SF-Drones-Startup-Meetup (About 700 members so far!)

sitkack 13y ago

Just tell me if the burrito deliver network is now possible!!

biblio777 13y ago

This is ridiculous. The coming (and fictitious) drone/UAS revolution every little rich punk in Silicon Valley is just that ... day dreaming. I cannot wait to watch the FAA mow down your dreams. You have NO idea the power of the organization you are dealing with and their commitment to safety. UAS are not and will not be (for decades) up to the FAA standards. If you are an investor putting money behind these outlandish businesses proposed here then you are even stupider than I thought.

zobzu 13y ago
somebody's jealous.

griffendoor 13y ago

What if I got 100 drones that picked up a tarp and carried me around (i.e. use them for transport, claiming that they carry the tarp and I just happen to be on it)? Or how about using drones in mass by a non-profit to intimidate at political gatherings? I like drones, but I have a feeling this is a decision that will get overturned within 5 years.

lsiebert 13y ago

I read the original motion for this, and it's a good read. The government has some pretty big restrictions on binding regulations from agencies. Restrictions that make a lot of sense when you realize that most law is made by elected officials with constituents, ie representative democracy. Regulations aren't made like that, so you have a lot of rules to prevent abuse. One of the restrictions is you need to have defined periods for public comment on new regulations. Which the FAA did not do, as I understand things. It just came up with new rules without following the defined regulatory process. If for no other reason then that, the UAV rules were invalid.

lsiebert 13y ago

andymoe 13y ago

So as expected (by me at least) the ruling has been appealed by the FAA and will go to the full NTSB so the opinion is stayed until the board rules: http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=15894 http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId... I think the FAA may lose the appeal but we will have to wait and see. This is really political for the FAA; they want to be in control of this area as much as possible so they will fight very hard to get the lower court ruling overturned. There is a large heated discussions thread on DIYDrones.com [1] if anyone is interested in opinions of folks with boots on the ground so to speak. [1] http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/commercial-drones-are-legal-in-the-us-court-roles http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/commercial-drones-are-le...

ilovecookies 13y ago

Now this suddenly became a valid activity for your CV. http://nodecopter.com/ http://nodecopter.com/