7 ms·

Man Denies He's Bitcoin Founder

88 points by keammo1 13y ago

vex 13y ago
Looks like Newsweek is going to have to deal with some pretty heavy fallout, seeing as they've already gone to print: https://twitter.com/KiraBind/status/441683373665554433/photo/1 https://twitter.com/KiraBind/status/441683373665554433/photo...
- pyrocat 13y ago
  I hope so, they deserve it.
- natrius 13y ago
  If by fallout you mean tons of revenue, then I agree.
  - mililani 13y ago
    I'm thinking more like a huge lawsuit.
    - fleitz 13y ago
      Libel? Slander? Where's the suit? If this guy actually is Satoshi the last thing in the world he wants is to be on a witness stand. Opening a case against Newsweek lets them subpoena all sorts of records that they aren't entitled to with out a case, primarily because the truth is a defence to slander / libel, and if this guy loses then he's forever Satoshi. Also it's going to be pretty difficult to prove that he suffered damages from the article.
      - pseudonym 13y ago
        >Also it's going to be pretty difficult to prove that he suffered damages from the article. It depends on what the fallout from it is, in terms of internet attention. If he's not "the real Satoshi" and he starts getting harassed because of this article, I'd say he has a pretty decent case: If the statement "is false, caused harm, and was made without adequate research", then most non-celebrity citizens have a pretty strong case.
      - declan 13y ago
        See my comment above re: potential liability: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7357827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7357827
      - dinkumthinkum 13y ago
        I know you may not mean this ... But, it is interesting to think of being "accused" if creating Bitcoin as "slander."
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
Zikes 13y ago
Man, it's a good thing HN didn't fly off the handle and start obsessing over this man and try to invade his privacy using the excuse that NewsWeek started it and that makes it okay. That would've been pretty embarrassing.
- nthitz 13y ago
  That was not my impression of the HN comments in the least. Most HN commenters seemed to think it was an egregious invasion of his privacy from what I read.
  - mikeyouse 13y ago
    HN in a nutshell: This was an egregious invasion of his privacy! Look, these postings from years ago on various message boards don't match his writing style -- these Amazon reviews don't match the style either -- his INS form doesn't match the timeline as close as expected -- From the streetview of his house, it doesn't look like the house of a hundred-millionaire -- this transaction made 3 years ago to buy juice in New York is off too -- I can't believe Newsweek invaded his privacy!
    - lukifer 13y ago
      It's almost as if there was more than person on HN.
  - Zikes 13y ago
    There was a separate post where a small business owner in New York claimed to have met the man in 2011 when he made a purchase at his store. People then started demanding the transaction ID so they could try to track down his wallet. It was filled with claims that it's not doxxing because NewsWeek posted his address already, that Bitcoin users should have no expectation of anonymity, it could have huge ramifications to the economics of Bitcoin as a whole, etc.
    - nikcub 13y ago
      > People then started demanding the transaction ID so they could try to track down his wallet. All of the top comments in that thread[0] specifically asked not to publish the transaction id, but some people just want to interpret things the way they want to interpret things. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326
technotony 13y ago
What about the article that was posted earlier today about the shop keeper who had this Satoshi visit his store and spend bitcoins? If that was true then it would breach this guys claim that he only learnt about bitcoin three weeks ago. Edit: link to previous article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326
- Zikes 13y ago
  The shop keeper on the other side of the country that once had an Asian man come in about three years ago and buy two crepes without giving his name or letting his photo be taken?
  - sarreph 13y ago
    What wasn't mentioned was the owner's wife's crepey photographic memory.
    - marcomassaro 13y ago
      I see what you did there
lsiebert 13y ago
I would like to take this opportunity to also deny that I had anything to do with the development of Bitcoin.
bennyg 13y ago
So is there any way to verify either account, beyond nudging the benefit of the doubt in the company with higher journalistic integrity's favor (AP)?
- latj 13y ago
  The two stories arent mutually exclusive. According to Newsweek the man acknowledged that he had worked on bitcoin: "I am no longer involved in that and I cannot discuss it" AP says the main is denying he ever worked on bitcoin. He very well could have said both of those things.
  - declan 13y ago
    Imagine this: Dorian Nakamoto was a former DoD contractor working on classified project and was not Mr. Bitcoin. A woman started (from his perspective) stalking him, emailing him under false pretenses, phoning him, calling his son, and then showing up at his house in person. He called the cops to keep this stalker (again, from his perspective) away from his house. She yelled some questions at him from a distance and he might have thought she was asking about DoD work. "No longer involved and cannot discuss" is a reasonable answer. As well as: Don't come back. I asked Newsweek's editor in chief a few hours ago about any recording: https://twitter.com/declanm/status/441713108763951104 https://twitter.com/declanm/status/441713108763951104 No response.
    - declan 13y ago
      And that (DoD work, or at least NDA-covered work) is exactly what Dorian thought was happening: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-bitcoin-founder http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-b...
    - latj 13y ago
      I knew I should be weary of the writer after this: "Satoshi Nakamoto's 2008 online proposal also hints at his age, with the odd reference to "disk space" - something that hasn't been an issue since the last millennium" 1. Showing great concern for the small details, side cases, resource conservation is a timeless and ageless sign of a good programmer. 2. Disk space is most certainly still an issue.
mililani 13y ago
Well, duh, what else was he going to say? Confess??
rjzzleep 13y ago
why are we up voting these threads? so someone posts this fancy story about the bitcoin founder he finally found, which for all we know could be false. yet, we have nothing better to up vote than every major news outlets satoshi nakamoto story.
- cjensen 13y ago
  Because AP is the only news service that has been granted an interview.
- saraid216 13y ago
  We are upvoting these threads because HN is subject to playing paparazzi as much as any teenage ditz and consequently devolving into a tabloid. This happens when John McAfee goes nuts in Brazil, too.
dmazin 13y ago
Wait, two hour exclusive for that? What else did they talk about? Off-record proof that he wasn't the man, I suppose?
- keammo1 13y ago
  The interview just happened, so presumably more detail is forthcoming
- declan 13y ago
  AP is likely to do a writethru. That's their style. Patience.
  - danielweber 13y ago
    For those of us that aren't journalists, what's a writethru?
    - declan 13y ago
      Oh, sorry. Wire services often will update their stories multiple times, especially if the news is timely. That gives their subscribers (especially newspapers with early print deadlines) something to work with, and the promise of more later. It also can carry bragging rights, important in inter-newsroom rivalries, about being first to publish. I've worked in newsrooms with direct AP feeds and I've seen as many as a dozen writethrus with major AP stories. On the internal feeds, at least, they're marked with version numbers and a terse explanation of what changed. I'm mildly surprised that AP hasn't published a writethru on their own website. It's been over an hour. Perhaps they have on their direct feeds, not sure.
    - csense 13y ago
      When writing to a cache simultaneously writes to the backing store [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_(computing)#Writing_policies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_(computing)#Writing_polic...
fatbat 13y ago
From article "exclusive two-hour interview" but then no link?
- cschmidt 13y ago
  I don't think they meant video interview. I read somewhere else that he went to the AP offices and they talked for two hours. So interview in the sense of reporter talking to person. It did seem a rather short article for that amount of talking.
- declan 13y ago
  AP almost certainly audio recorded it (at every news organization I've worked for it would be standard practice). But that doesn't mean they'll post the audio, or that there was video. Also: they'll do a writethru soon enough.
  - declan 13y ago
    Update: writethru is up with important details.
jsnk 13y ago
I will forever mark the name, Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek editorial staff in my mind as a toxic journalist and TMZ-styled publication after this event. Granted, I don't think Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek did anything illegal by breaking this story. I don't think it's wrong for Goodman to attempt to contact Satoshi's relatives over the phone. What really crossed the line for me was Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek's decision to post the photo of the house, with the car's plate info on it. Why would you do this? What relavence if any did this have to the story? Showing of the house with car license plate resulted in identifying his address really easily. Let's face it. She wouldn't have done this to Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos even though they are far more famous, rich and public. She did this to this guy only because he's reclusive and powerless.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates%27s_house http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates%27s_house Bad example.
  - maaku 13y ago
    Bill Gates spends millions a year on personal security. What if this guy is not actually worth millions of dollars?
    - maxerickson 13y ago
      My point was more that wealthy, powerful people often don't even have the sort of privacy being talked about, it doesn't make sense to complain that their wealth and power would protect them.
    - fleitz 13y ago
      Then he has to suffer through the horror and agony of having someone knock on his door, and having the police escort them off his property. I'm not sure if he'll fully recover from that kind of trauma.
      - 13y ago
ronnier 13y ago
I'm holding to my comment! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6828576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6828576 >I am only certain of one thing when it comes to bitcoin, the creator(s) are not Japanese.
- saraid216 13y ago
  I still claim that Satoshi Nakamoto is the NSA. Clearly this was one of their fall guys. Terrible people, the NSA, setting up innocent bystanders as scapegoats.
  - nhaehnle 13y ago
    What is your story for the thought processes/internal processes at NSA that would have led to the creation of Bitcoin by them? I'm genuinely curious because it seems pretty out of character for an organization whose task is to protect the established elite to go out of their way to create something extremely creative that could endanger the established elite.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6206086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6206086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6804870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6804870 The plausibility depends a lot on the competence you anticipate from such processes. But such contradicting signals of competence are pretty typical of large organizations, especially ones that are silo-ed to some degree.
    - Crito 13y ago
      Perhaps *"TLAs got tired of smuggling cocaine for beer money, and wanted something a bit less hazardous/risky."
- zhemao 13y ago
  According to the original Newsweek article, Dorian S. Nakamoto is not Japanese, but Japanese-American. He has lived in the US since age 10. But actually, what makes you say the creator of Bitcoin ("the real Satoshi") is not Japanese?
chuinard 13y ago
The original article claims of an encounter with Satoshi with the police present that mention he handed Bitcoin off. Wouldn't it make sense for Leah to get that officer to go on public record corroborating her story? Or can officers not do that?
bishnu 13y ago
So Newsweek, returning to print newsstands after several years, runs with a cover story that is debunked on the internet in a matter of hours? Is this not a perfect metaphor for the print journalism industry? Can we bet on when Print Newsweek 2.0 also goes belly-up?
- devindotcom 13y ago
  It's not a very good metaphor at all, especially when the story first appeared online, and was (edit: possibly)debunked by a massive news corporation that has been in print for decades. If it turns out this guy isn't Satoshi, it's just plain good reporting by the AP. As for Newsweek, that would be it, I think. They'd be a laughing stock.
  - gamblor956 13y ago
    I'm reminded of the time the AP said that a Boston U student (who we now know had been dead for several weeks) was the likely suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing, blindly regurgitating the rumors on reddit. It turns out they were wrong about something far worse than claiming that some guy created Bitcoin. And yet, the AP is still around today...and is now being cited by the tech community as a paragon of journalism.
    - skwirl 13y ago
      Can you link to a source regarding your claim that the AP wrongly implicated Sunil Tripathi in the Boston Marathon bombings? I couldn't find anything on Google, either by searching the entire internet or just ap.org.
Steko 13y ago
Man says X, later claims not X. Bitcoin enthusiasts declare total victory for not X, call for tar and feathering of company that published X. No harm in giving this some time and seeing if "Man Denies He's Bitcoin Founder" turns out to filed next to[1] "Man Denies Connection to Olympic Bombing" or next to "OJ Announces Search For Real Killers". [1] pedantry disclaimer: not meant as perfect analogies
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- declan 13y ago
  Except there's no evidence he said X in the first place. See the AP's writethru.
  - Steko 13y ago
    Gonna file your comment under "Bitcoin enthusiasts declare total victory for not X" On what planet is this not evidence: "Newsweek writer Leah McGrath Goodman, who spent two months researching the story, told the AP: "I stand completely by my exchange with Mr. Nakamoto. There was no confusion whatsoever about the context of our conversation -- and his acknowledgment of his involvement in Bitcoin."
    - declan 13y ago
      An audio recording is evidence. What you quoted back to me is the possibly flawed recollection of a reporter who's in the unenviable position of defending a very high-profile cover story used to relaunch a national magazine. That reporter is no longer a disinterested observer. The AP, to a first approximation, is.
      - Steko 13y ago
        Discount it however you want, her testimony is a form of evidence [1]. To say there is "no evidence" is simply and flatly false. [1] That's a quote from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimony http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimony
onewaystreet 13y ago
According to the Newsweek article this Satoshi Nakamoto: 1. Dropped all contact with the reporter when the topic of Bitcoin was brought up over email. 2. Called the cops when the reporter went to his house to ask him about Bitcoin. 3. Said to the reporter: "I am no longer involved in that and I cannot discuss it," "It's been turned over to other people. They are in charge of it now. I no longer have any connection." Someone here is lying, because a person who only heard of Bitcoin three weeks ago doesn't do and say those things.
- bennyg 13y ago
  It makes me wonder how many people saw "Satoshi Nakamoto" and tried to talk to this guy before the reporter. Surely she wasn't the first. People have been wondering about the identity for years.
- devindotcom 13y ago
  Could also be interpreted: 1. Dropped all contact when it was clear the person had misrepresented themselves and thought he was Satoshi. 2. Called the cops when this stranger came to his home to persist in this line of questioning. 3. Reporter says he said this, but also the cop just happens to be familiar with bitcoin and quip something appropriate. It could easily be a paraphrase of this man saying he's no longer involved in the govt projects we know him to be involved in, and he has no connection with them. Why didn't the reporter record this exchange? Seems elementary when you're ambushing the guy. And has no one contacted the cop involved to see what he said or knows?
fleitz 13y ago
Classic question of identity combined with he said, she said. I look forward to hearing the Ship of Theseus discussed in court.
hristov 13y ago
I do not believe him. There are just too many coincidences there. This is not a common name. What are the chances you find someone that has the math and engineering knowledge to create bitcoin and has not been busy with anything else during the relevant period among the "several" people that newsweek found having that name in the entire world. He is probably scared for his life and scared for the safety of his family. And it might be with good reason. So I am not going to bother him or anything, but lets be honest: he is probably the guy. I think the bitcoin community will help him regain his anonymity. It is in their interest that the mystery of Satoshi survives. I am sure he is a great person but the face of Dorian Satoshi Nakamoto just does not seem to inspire billion dollar valuations.
- kiba 13y ago
  This is not a common name It's a common Japanese name, like "John Smith".
- dopamean 13y ago
  Is this satire?
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago
  Eh do you think it is an uncommon name and scared for his life? Are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet paralyzed with fear?
  - hristov 13y ago
    It would be very difficult to rob Bill Gates or Warren Buffet and get away with it. Their money is mostly in the records of various banks, brokerage houses, corporations etc. It would be very difficult to steal that without being immediately traced. It seems much easier to steal bitcoin. None of the significant bitcoin thieves have been caught thus far, and we are talking large sums being stolen. Regarding his name being uncommon, I have to admit, I know little of Japanese names or how common they are. I trusted the Newsweek article which suggested the name was very uncommon and they also kind of suggested that they checked all the Satoshi Nakamotos they could find on record. But of course they may be wrong.
Aqueous 13y ago
Ok, I'm sorry but there are some serious inconsistencies here. Leah McGrath Goodman said that after she asked him about BitCoin he promptly stopped emailing her. The timeline is unclear, but it seems like this was before Goodman contacted his family members. Why would she contact his family members if she was directly talking to him and they could blow her pretext of wanting to talk about model trains? This strongly suggests that he knew enough about BitCoin to be chased away by the question. He uses English and American spellings, just like Satoshi's mailing list postings. He has a computer engineering background. When she came to his house he said, verbatim, exactly what happened with BitCoin - "I'm not involved in that anymore." And something to the effect of "That's been handed over to others, I have no involvement with that anymore." This, if it was said, strongly suggests to me that this is in fact Satoshi. Given that this would be catastrophe for both the journalist and Newsweek if it turned out to be wrong, and they must have seen some compelling evidence if they went forward with the story - I'm skeptical about Dorian Nakamoto's denial here.
- bhouston 13y ago
  I agree as much as one can. Unless there are outright fabrications in the Newsweek story, you really can not then start denying his role after he seemed to be admitting it. The chance of a random guy just admitting his role, being eccentric and really smart in this area and then later denying it -- and then not being the guy behind Bitcoin, seems implausible. That said, if the guy wants his privacy, we can afford it to him, and if the only way to do that is to pretend he isn't the founder, so be it. So that is how I am going to interpret these denials and those agreeing with them.
  - Aqueous 13y ago
    Absolutely - I think he should be given privacy. Those are his wishes.
  - declan 13y ago
    Another possibility is that the Newsweek reporter was overly convinced she was right, and ignored inconsistencies that disagreed with her premise. We don't have audio of the exchange where Dorian Nakamoto allegedly quasi-admitted to being involved in Bitcoin. I could be wrong, of course, but misquotes do happen.
DigitalSea 13y ago
Based on other investigative efforts people have undertaken, the kind of level of complexity Bitcoin has in its underlying code-base shows that there might have been more than one person responsible for Bitcoin. It's unfortunate this has happened to a guy who is not related to Bitcoin at all. Pictures of his house, location, his full name and even going as far as documenting that he's between in and out of jobs over the years was uncalled for in my opinion. Do editors and journalists not read what is being published? Feels like we've all been transformed back 7 to 10 years ago where this kind of "investigative journalism" was prevalent and hardly investigative at all. NewsWeek either need to put up some conclusive proof or retract everything they've said and give mr Satoshi an apology. It'll be interesting if from a legal perspective Dorian Satoshi has a case against NewsWeek considering this has already gone to print. If it causes Satoshi's life to crumble, make it hard for him to get employment, subjects him to harassment from armchair Internet investigators and whatnot, he might have some kind of case. But having said that, this would mean if it went to court, he would have to offer up access to info that NewsWeek and others don't have and if he is the real Satoshi, it would come back to bite him. The real question is, if this is the real Satoshi, why isn't he using his incredible stash of Bitcoin to live a little more comfortably? Hiding in plain sight perhaps. Just let the poor guy be. Nobody should be subject to this kind of speculative journalism. It's the Boston bombing situation all over again. Edit: the real Satoshi responded to his original announcement here, his first communication in 5 years: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source?commentId=2003008%3AComment%3A52186 http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-sour... — a simple one liner.
- mortenjorck 13y ago
  NewsWeek either need to put up some conclusive proof or retract everything they've said and give mr Satoshi an apology. This has been my problem since the story broke. It's just like a good conspiracy theory; the circumstances are all there to make the conclusion possible, even plausible. But there's not enough there that would hold up in a court of law.
- nhaehnle 13y ago
  The new Satoshi Nakamoto communication is really interesting. There have been quite a lot of stories over time supposedly identifying the real Nakamoto, and there was complete silence over this. So... did Newsweek get the real Nakamoto who is panicking now? Or did they get the wrong guy, and the real guy feels like this time (rather than those previous times) he has to step in to protect the innocent? It's not really evidence in any direction.
bennyg 13y ago
Apparently there was a car chase (kind of) involved: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/03/06/satoshi_nakamoto_car_chase_bitcoin_creator_pursued_by_media_as_joe_bel_bruno.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/03/06/satoshi_n...
fchollet 13y ago
Textbook case of repulsively inane "journalism". Newsweek senior writer Leah McGrath Goodman was assigned the task to write a juicy story by outing the Bitcoin inventor. Here's how she went about it, as a diligent professional: starting from the assumption that Satoshi Nakamoto was literally his real name, she went scouring a database that contained the registration cards of naturalized U.S. citizens (for the record, Nakamoto is the ~400th most common Japanese name). A Satoshi Nakamoto then turned up whose profile and background offered a potential match (as he used to be an engineering contractor and had shown libertarian views in the past), if you were willing to ignore a lot of facts (such as his less-than-native mastery of English). She then interviewed the man's family, fabricated a few quotes implying involvement with Bitcoin, and published a clickbait story destroying the man's privacy. Well at least, Dorian Nakamoto got a free lunch out of it.
- danielweber 13y ago
  The LA Times talked about how reporters were chasing Nakamoto, and had a link "follow the chase here."
- declan 13y ago
  This could well be the case. I've seen it happen before including in newsrooms I've worked in: A reporter feels too confident in her story and starts to ignore contrary evidence. Her editors don't perform sufficient independent verification. Everyone is caught up in having an exclusive. In this case it coincides with the magazine's relaunch, ratcheting up the pressure still more. Also you might have a bunch of English major editors saying FAA engineer == computer engineer with significant cryptocurrency domain expertise. It's all the same, amiright?
  - bennyg 13y ago
    Cryptography is learnable by anybody. Maybe not practiced up to state-of-the-art standards by just anybody, but to say that's unreachable is bad form. I'm an art major turned software developer who has been reading about cryptography and paying astute attention to cryptography articles here (as well as trying to objectively gauge the comments), for the better part of the last half-year. I'm not saying I'm good at it, but to say that I can't comprehend a hash function, padding oracle attacks and public-key cryptography is pretty dumb. The beautiful thing about cryptography is that, theoretically it's nice and simple - the less moving parts that add up to the more robust system, the better. The problem lies in real-world implementations, as it always does with theoretical -> real systems. If I, as a liberal arts major with only a few years of practical software (and thus tangential computer subsystems of hardware) experience can grok the basics no problem, then surely an electrical engineer with years of practical experience can understand it too. Creativity knows no bounds - sometimes the right circumstances and accidents lead to an idea that actually makes perfect sense.
ck2 13y ago
This man has had a stroke and cancer. People need to leave him the hell alone.
declan 13y ago
AP's writethru with more details is now up: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-bitcoin-founder http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-b... Key excerpt: He also said a key portion of the piece — where he is quoted telling the reporter on his doorstep before two police officers, "I am no longer involved in that and I cannot discuss it" — was misunderstood. Nakamoto said he is a native of Beppu, Japan who came to the U.S. when he was 10. He speaks both English and Japanese, but his English isn't flawless. Asked if he said the quote, Nakamoto responded, "no." "I'm saying I'm no longer in engineering. That's it," he said of the exchange. "And even if I was, when we get hired, you have to sign this document, contract saying you will not reveal anything we divulge during and after employment. So that's what I implied."
jballanc 13y ago
Hahaha...well played! This guy, whoever he is, is definitely one step ahead of the rest of us. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would know that it's effectively impossible to remain truly anonymous in this day and age. So what do you do if you want to be left alone? Either you make sure you have enough "insurance" that no one would risk messing with you, or you play the system against itself: leak just enough information to lead people down your trail but not so much that the trail can't equally plausibly be denied. It's all rather reminiscent of Vinnie "The Chin" Gigante's decades-long ruse of feigned insanity to avoid prosecution. Side note: I think the last high-profile anonymous figure that managed to remain truly anonymous for any length of time was "Deep Throat", and he did all of his talking pre-internet.
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago
  This is strange ... Really ... But I thought I'd say, have you ever thought that some people may have succeeded in being "anonymous" or hidden by the simple that you have not heard of them?
- declan 13y ago
  I've used anonymous sources in many articles. All were published in the Internet era. Not one of my sources was ever involuntarily outed, as far as I know.
csense 13y ago
Readers who believe Dorian != Satoshi: What would you have to see to convince you that Dorian == Satoshi? Readers who believe Dorian == Satoshi: What would you have to see to convince you that Dorian != Satoshi? The hallmark of a good belief system is that your beliefs are falsifiable -- there exists some hypothetical set of experiments which could return unexpected results that would make you change your beliefs.

88 points by keammo1 13y ago

vex 13y ago

Looks like Newsweek is going to have to deal with some pretty heavy fallout, seeing as they've already gone to print: https://twitter.com/KiraBind/status/441683373665554433/photo/1 https://twitter.com/KiraBind/status/441683373665554433/photo...

pyrocat 13y ago
I hope so, they deserve it.
natrius 13y ago
If by fallout you mean tons of revenue, then I agree.
- mililani 13y ago
  I'm thinking more like a huge lawsuit.
  - fleitz 13y ago
    Libel? Slander? Where's the suit? If this guy actually is Satoshi the last thing in the world he wants is to be on a witness stand. Opening a case against Newsweek lets them subpoena all sorts of records that they aren't entitled to with out a case, primarily because the truth is a defence to slander / libel, and if this guy loses then he's forever Satoshi. Also it's going to be pretty difficult to prove that he suffered damages from the article.
    - pseudonym 13y ago
      >Also it's going to be pretty difficult to prove that he suffered damages from the article. It depends on what the fallout from it is, in terms of internet attention. If he's not "the real Satoshi" and he starts getting harassed because of this article, I'd say he has a pretty decent case: If the statement "is false, caused harm, and was made without adequate research", then most non-celebrity citizens have a pretty strong case.
    - declan 13y ago
      See my comment above re: potential liability: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7357827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7357827
    - dinkumthinkum 13y ago
      I know you may not mean this ... But, it is interesting to think of being "accused" if creating Bitcoin as "slander."
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

Zikes 13y ago

Man, it's a good thing HN didn't fly off the handle and start obsessing over this man and try to invade his privacy using the excuse that NewsWeek started it and that makes it okay. That would've been pretty embarrassing.

nthitz 13y ago
That was not my impression of the HN comments in the least. Most HN commenters seemed to think it was an egregious invasion of his privacy from what I read.
- mikeyouse 13y ago
  HN in a nutshell: This was an egregious invasion of his privacy! Look, these postings from years ago on various message boards don't match his writing style -- these Amazon reviews don't match the style either -- his INS form doesn't match the timeline as close as expected -- From the streetview of his house, it doesn't look like the house of a hundred-millionaire -- this transaction made 3 years ago to buy juice in New York is off too -- I can't believe Newsweek invaded his privacy!
  - lukifer 13y ago
    It's almost as if there was more than person on HN.
- Zikes 13y ago
  There was a separate post where a small business owner in New York claimed to have met the man in 2011 when he made a purchase at his store. People then started demanding the transaction ID so they could try to track down his wallet. It was filled with claims that it's not doxxing because NewsWeek posted his address already, that Bitcoin users should have no expectation of anonymity, it could have huge ramifications to the economics of Bitcoin as a whole, etc.
  - nikcub 13y ago
    > People then started demanding the transaction ID so they could try to track down his wallet. All of the top comments in that thread[0] specifically asked not to publish the transaction id, but some people just want to interpret things the way they want to interpret things. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326

technotony 13y ago

What about the article that was posted earlier today about the shop keeper who had this Satoshi visit his store and spend bitcoins? If that was true then it would breach this guys claim that he only learnt about bitcoin three weeks ago. Edit: link to previous article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326

Zikes 13y ago
The shop keeper on the other side of the country that once had an Asian man come in about three years ago and buy two crepes without giving his name or letting his photo be taken?
- sarreph 13y ago
  What wasn't mentioned was the owner's wife's crepey photographic memory.
  - marcomassaro 13y ago
    I see what you did there

lsiebert 13y ago

I would like to take this opportunity to also deny that I had anything to do with the development of Bitcoin.

bennyg 13y ago

So is there any way to verify either account, beyond nudging the benefit of the doubt in the company with higher journalistic integrity's favor (AP)?

latj 13y ago
The two stories arent mutually exclusive. According to Newsweek the man acknowledged that he had worked on bitcoin: "I am no longer involved in that and I cannot discuss it" AP says the main is denying he ever worked on bitcoin. He very well could have said both of those things.
- declan 13y ago
  Imagine this: Dorian Nakamoto was a former DoD contractor working on classified project and was not Mr. Bitcoin. A woman started (from his perspective) stalking him, emailing him under false pretenses, phoning him, calling his son, and then showing up at his house in person. He called the cops to keep this stalker (again, from his perspective) away from his house. She yelled some questions at him from a distance and he might have thought she was asking about DoD work. "No longer involved and cannot discuss" is a reasonable answer. As well as: Don't come back. I asked Newsweek's editor in chief a few hours ago about any recording: https://twitter.com/declanm/status/441713108763951104 https://twitter.com/declanm/status/441713108763951104 No response.
  - declan 13y ago
    And that (DoD work, or at least NDA-covered work) is exactly what Dorian thought was happening: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-bitcoin-founder http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-b...
  - latj 13y ago
    I knew I should be weary of the writer after this: "Satoshi Nakamoto's 2008 online proposal also hints at his age, with the odd reference to "disk space" - something that hasn't been an issue since the last millennium" 1. Showing great concern for the small details, side cases, resource conservation is a timeless and ageless sign of a good programmer. 2. Disk space is most certainly still an issue.

mililani 13y ago

Well, duh, what else was he going to say? Confess??

rjzzleep 13y ago

why are we up voting these threads? so someone posts this fancy story about the bitcoin founder he finally found, which for all we know could be false. yet, we have nothing better to up vote than every major news outlets satoshi nakamoto story.

cjensen 13y ago
Because AP is the only news service that has been granted an interview.
saraid216 13y ago
We are upvoting these threads because HN is subject to playing paparazzi as much as any teenage ditz and consequently devolving into a tabloid. This happens when John McAfee goes nuts in Brazil, too.

dmazin 13y ago

Wait, two hour exclusive for that? What else did they talk about? Off-record proof that he wasn't the man, I suppose?

keammo1 13y ago
The interview just happened, so presumably more detail is forthcoming
declan 13y ago
AP is likely to do a writethru. That's their style. Patience.
- danielweber 13y ago
  For those of us that aren't journalists, what's a writethru?
  - declan 13y ago
    Oh, sorry. Wire services often will update their stories multiple times, especially if the news is timely. That gives their subscribers (especially newspapers with early print deadlines) something to work with, and the promise of more later. It also can carry bragging rights, important in inter-newsroom rivalries, about being first to publish. I've worked in newsrooms with direct AP feeds and I've seen as many as a dozen writethrus with major AP stories. On the internal feeds, at least, they're marked with version numbers and a terse explanation of what changed. I'm mildly surprised that AP hasn't published a writethru on their own website. It's been over an hour. Perhaps they have on their direct feeds, not sure.
  - csense 13y ago
    When writing to a cache simultaneously writes to the backing store [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_(computing)#Writing_policies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_(computing)#Writing_polic...

fatbat 13y ago

From article "exclusive two-hour interview" but then no link?

cschmidt 13y ago
I don't think they meant video interview. I read somewhere else that he went to the AP offices and they talked for two hours. So interview in the sense of reporter talking to person. It did seem a rather short article for that amount of talking.
declan 13y ago
AP almost certainly audio recorded it (at every news organization I've worked for it would be standard practice). But that doesn't mean they'll post the audio, or that there was video. Also: they'll do a writethru soon enough.
- declan 13y ago
  Update: writethru is up with important details.

jsnk 13y ago

I will forever mark the name, Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek editorial staff in my mind as a toxic journalist and TMZ-styled publication after this event. Granted, I don't think Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek did anything illegal by breaking this story. I don't think it's wrong for Goodman to attempt to contact Satoshi's relatives over the phone. What really crossed the line for me was Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek's decision to post the photo of the house, with the car's plate info on it. Why would you do this? What relavence if any did this have to the story? Showing of the house with car license plate resulted in identifying his address really easily. Let's face it. She wouldn't have done this to Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos even though they are far more famous, rich and public. She did this to this guy only because he's reclusive and powerless.

maxerickson 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates%27s_house http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates%27s_house Bad example.
- maaku 13y ago
  Bill Gates spends millions a year on personal security. What if this guy is not actually worth millions of dollars?
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    My point was more that wealthy, powerful people often don't even have the sort of privacy being talked about, it doesn't make sense to complain that their wealth and power would protect them.
  - fleitz 13y ago
    Then he has to suffer through the horror and agony of having someone knock on his door, and having the police escort them off his property. I'm not sure if he'll fully recover from that kind of trauma.
    - 13y ago

ronnier 13y ago

I'm holding to my comment! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6828576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6828576 >I am only certain of one thing when it comes to bitcoin, the creator(s) are not Japanese.

saraid216 13y ago
I still claim that Satoshi Nakamoto is the NSA. Clearly this was one of their fall guys. Terrible people, the NSA, setting up innocent bystanders as scapegoats.
- nhaehnle 13y ago
  What is your story for the thought processes/internal processes at NSA that would have led to the creation of Bitcoin by them? I'm genuinely curious because it seems pretty out of character for an organization whose task is to protect the established elite to go out of their way to create something extremely creative that could endanger the established elite.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6206086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6206086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6804870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6804870 The plausibility depends a lot on the competence you anticipate from such processes. But such contradicting signals of competence are pretty typical of large organizations, especially ones that are silo-ed to some degree.
  - Crito 13y ago
    Perhaps *"TLAs got tired of smuggling cocaine for beer money, and wanted something a bit less hazardous/risky."
zhemao 13y ago
According to the original Newsweek article, Dorian S. Nakamoto is not Japanese, but Japanese-American. He has lived in the US since age 10. But actually, what makes you say the creator of Bitcoin ("the real Satoshi") is not Japanese?

chuinard 13y ago

The original article claims of an encounter with Satoshi with the police present that mention he handed Bitcoin off. Wouldn't it make sense for Leah to get that officer to go on public record corroborating her story? Or can officers not do that?

bishnu 13y ago

So Newsweek, returning to print newsstands after several years, runs with a cover story that is debunked on the internet in a matter of hours? Is this not a perfect metaphor for the print journalism industry? Can we bet on when Print Newsweek 2.0 also goes belly-up?

devindotcom 13y ago
It's not a very good metaphor at all, especially when the story first appeared online, and was (edit: possibly)debunked by a massive news corporation that has been in print for decades. If it turns out this guy isn't Satoshi, it's just plain good reporting by the AP. As for Newsweek, that would be it, I think. They'd be a laughing stock.
- gamblor956 13y ago
  I'm reminded of the time the AP said that a Boston U student (who we now know had been dead for several weeks) was the likely suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing, blindly regurgitating the rumors on reddit. It turns out they were wrong about something far worse than claiming that some guy created Bitcoin. And yet, the AP is still around today...and is now being cited by the tech community as a paragon of journalism.
  - skwirl 13y ago
    Can you link to a source regarding your claim that the AP wrongly implicated Sunil Tripathi in the Boston Marathon bombings? I couldn't find anything on Google, either by searching the entire internet or just ap.org.

Steko 13y ago

Man says X, later claims not X. Bitcoin enthusiasts declare total victory for not X, call for tar and feathering of company that published X. No harm in giving this some time and seeing if "Man Denies He's Bitcoin Founder" turns out to filed next to[1] "Man Denies Connection to Olympic Bombing" or next to "OJ Announces Search For Real Killers". [1] pedantry disclaimer: not meant as perfect analogies

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
declan 13y ago
Except there's no evidence he said X in the first place. See the AP's writethru.
- Steko 13y ago
  Gonna file your comment under "Bitcoin enthusiasts declare total victory for not X" On what planet is this not evidence: "Newsweek writer Leah McGrath Goodman, who spent two months researching the story, told the AP: "I stand completely by my exchange with Mr. Nakamoto. There was no confusion whatsoever about the context of our conversation -- and his acknowledgment of his involvement in Bitcoin."
  - declan 13y ago
    An audio recording is evidence. What you quoted back to me is the possibly flawed recollection of a reporter who's in the unenviable position of defending a very high-profile cover story used to relaunch a national magazine. That reporter is no longer a disinterested observer. The AP, to a first approximation, is.
    - Steko 13y ago
      Discount it however you want, her testimony is a form of evidence [1]. To say there is "no evidence" is simply and flatly false. [1] That's a quote from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimony http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimony

onewaystreet 13y ago

According to the Newsweek article this Satoshi Nakamoto: 1. Dropped all contact with the reporter when the topic of Bitcoin was brought up over email. 2. Called the cops when the reporter went to his house to ask him about Bitcoin. 3. Said to the reporter: "I am no longer involved in that and I cannot discuss it," "It's been turned over to other people. They are in charge of it now. I no longer have any connection." Someone here is lying, because a person who only heard of Bitcoin three weeks ago doesn't do and say those things.

bennyg 13y ago
It makes me wonder how many people saw "Satoshi Nakamoto" and tried to talk to this guy before the reporter. Surely she wasn't the first. People have been wondering about the identity for years.
devindotcom 13y ago
Could also be interpreted: 1. Dropped all contact when it was clear the person had misrepresented themselves and thought he was Satoshi. 2. Called the cops when this stranger came to his home to persist in this line of questioning. 3. Reporter says he said this, but also the cop just happens to be familiar with bitcoin and quip something appropriate. It could easily be a paraphrase of this man saying he's no longer involved in the govt projects we know him to be involved in, and he has no connection with them. Why didn't the reporter record this exchange? Seems elementary when you're ambushing the guy. And has no one contacted the cop involved to see what he said or knows?

fleitz 13y ago

Classic question of identity combined with he said, she said. I look forward to hearing the Ship of Theseus discussed in court.

hristov 13y ago

I do not believe him. There are just too many coincidences there. This is not a common name. What are the chances you find someone that has the math and engineering knowledge to create bitcoin and has not been busy with anything else during the relevant period among the "several" people that newsweek found having that name in the entire world. He is probably scared for his life and scared for the safety of his family. And it might be with good reason. So I am not going to bother him or anything, but lets be honest: he is probably the guy. I think the bitcoin community will help him regain his anonymity. It is in their interest that the mystery of Satoshi survives. I am sure he is a great person but the face of Dorian Satoshi Nakamoto just does not seem to inspire billion dollar valuations.

kiba 13y ago
This is not a common name It's a common Japanese name, like "John Smith".
dopamean 13y ago
Is this satire?
dinkumthinkum 13y ago
Eh do you think it is an uncommon name and scared for his life? Are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet paralyzed with fear?
- hristov 13y ago
  It would be very difficult to rob Bill Gates or Warren Buffet and get away with it. Their money is mostly in the records of various banks, brokerage houses, corporations etc. It would be very difficult to steal that without being immediately traced. It seems much easier to steal bitcoin. None of the significant bitcoin thieves have been caught thus far, and we are talking large sums being stolen. Regarding his name being uncommon, I have to admit, I know little of Japanese names or how common they are. I trusted the Newsweek article which suggested the name was very uncommon and they also kind of suggested that they checked all the Satoshi Nakamotos they could find on record. But of course they may be wrong.

Aqueous 13y ago

Ok, I'm sorry but there are some serious inconsistencies here. Leah McGrath Goodman said that after she asked him about BitCoin he promptly stopped emailing her. The timeline is unclear, but it seems like this was before Goodman contacted his family members. Why would she contact his family members if she was directly talking to him and they could blow her pretext of wanting to talk about model trains? This strongly suggests that he knew enough about BitCoin to be chased away by the question. He uses English and American spellings, just like Satoshi's mailing list postings. He has a computer engineering background. When she came to his house he said, verbatim, exactly what happened with BitCoin - "I'm not involved in that anymore." And something to the effect of "That's been handed over to others, I have no involvement with that anymore." This, if it was said, strongly suggests to me that this is in fact Satoshi. Given that this would be catastrophe for both the journalist and Newsweek if it turned out to be wrong, and they must have seen some compelling evidence if they went forward with the story - I'm skeptical about Dorian Nakamoto's denial here.

bhouston 13y ago
I agree as much as one can. Unless there are outright fabrications in the Newsweek story, you really can not then start denying his role after he seemed to be admitting it. The chance of a random guy just admitting his role, being eccentric and really smart in this area and then later denying it -- and then not being the guy behind Bitcoin, seems implausible. That said, if the guy wants his privacy, we can afford it to him, and if the only way to do that is to pretend he isn't the founder, so be it. So that is how I am going to interpret these denials and those agreeing with them.
- Aqueous 13y ago
  Absolutely - I think he should be given privacy. Those are his wishes.
- declan 13y ago
  Another possibility is that the Newsweek reporter was overly convinced she was right, and ignored inconsistencies that disagreed with her premise. We don't have audio of the exchange where Dorian Nakamoto allegedly quasi-admitted to being involved in Bitcoin. I could be wrong, of course, but misquotes do happen.

DigitalSea 13y ago

Based on other investigative efforts people have undertaken, the kind of level of complexity Bitcoin has in its underlying code-base shows that there might have been more than one person responsible for Bitcoin. It's unfortunate this has happened to a guy who is not related to Bitcoin at all. Pictures of his house, location, his full name and even going as far as documenting that he's between in and out of jobs over the years was uncalled for in my opinion. Do editors and journalists not read what is being published? Feels like we've all been transformed back 7 to 10 years ago where this kind of "investigative journalism" was prevalent and hardly investigative at all. NewsWeek either need to put up some conclusive proof or retract everything they've said and give mr Satoshi an apology. It'll be interesting if from a legal perspective Dorian Satoshi has a case against NewsWeek considering this has already gone to print. If it causes Satoshi's life to crumble, make it hard for him to get employment, subjects him to harassment from armchair Internet investigators and whatnot, he might have some kind of case. But having said that, this would mean if it went to court, he would have to offer up access to info that NewsWeek and others don't have and if he is the real Satoshi, it would come back to bite him. The real question is, if this is the real Satoshi, why isn't he using his incredible stash of Bitcoin to live a little more comfortably? Hiding in plain sight perhaps. Just let the poor guy be. Nobody should be subject to this kind of speculative journalism. It's the Boston bombing situation all over again. Edit: the real Satoshi responded to his original announcement here, his first communication in 5 years: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source?commentId=2003008%3AComment%3A52186 http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-sour... — a simple one liner.

mortenjorck 13y ago
NewsWeek either need to put up some conclusive proof or retract everything they've said and give mr Satoshi an apology. This has been my problem since the story broke. It's just like a good conspiracy theory; the circumstances are all there to make the conclusion possible, even plausible. But there's not enough there that would hold up in a court of law.
nhaehnle 13y ago
The new Satoshi Nakamoto communication is really interesting. There have been quite a lot of stories over time supposedly identifying the real Nakamoto, and there was complete silence over this. So... did Newsweek get the real Nakamoto who is panicking now? Or did they get the wrong guy, and the real guy feels like this time (rather than those previous times) he has to step in to protect the innocent? It's not really evidence in any direction.

bennyg 13y ago

Apparently there was a car chase (kind of) involved: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/03/06/satoshi_nakamoto_car_chase_bitcoin_creator_pursued_by_media_as_joe_bel_bruno.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/03/06/satoshi_n...

fchollet 13y ago

Textbook case of repulsively inane "journalism". Newsweek senior writer Leah McGrath Goodman was assigned the task to write a juicy story by outing the Bitcoin inventor. Here's how she went about it, as a diligent professional: starting from the assumption that Satoshi Nakamoto was literally his real name, she went scouring a database that contained the registration cards of naturalized U.S. citizens (for the record, Nakamoto is the ~400th most common Japanese name). A Satoshi Nakamoto then turned up whose profile and background offered a potential match (as he used to be an engineering contractor and had shown libertarian views in the past), if you were willing to ignore a lot of facts (such as his less-than-native mastery of English). She then interviewed the man's family, fabricated a few quotes implying involvement with Bitcoin, and published a clickbait story destroying the man's privacy. Well at least, Dorian Nakamoto got a free lunch out of it.

danielweber 13y ago
The LA Times talked about how reporters were chasing Nakamoto, and had a link "follow the chase here."
declan 13y ago
This could well be the case. I've seen it happen before including in newsrooms I've worked in: A reporter feels too confident in her story and starts to ignore contrary evidence. Her editors don't perform sufficient independent verification. Everyone is caught up in having an exclusive. In this case it coincides with the magazine's relaunch, ratcheting up the pressure still more. Also you might have a bunch of English major editors saying FAA engineer == computer engineer with significant cryptocurrency domain expertise. It's all the same, amiright?
- bennyg 13y ago
  Cryptography is learnable by anybody. Maybe not practiced up to state-of-the-art standards by just anybody, but to say that's unreachable is bad form. I'm an art major turned software developer who has been reading about cryptography and paying astute attention to cryptography articles here (as well as trying to objectively gauge the comments), for the better part of the last half-year. I'm not saying I'm good at it, but to say that I can't comprehend a hash function, padding oracle attacks and public-key cryptography is pretty dumb. The beautiful thing about cryptography is that, theoretically it's nice and simple - the less moving parts that add up to the more robust system, the better. The problem lies in real-world implementations, as it always does with theoretical -> real systems. If I, as a liberal arts major with only a few years of practical software (and thus tangential computer subsystems of hardware) experience can grok the basics no problem, then surely an electrical engineer with years of practical experience can understand it too. Creativity knows no bounds - sometimes the right circumstances and accidents lead to an idea that actually makes perfect sense.

ck2 13y ago

This man has had a stroke and cancer. People need to leave him the hell alone.

declan 13y ago

AP's writethru with more details is now up: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-bitcoin-founder http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-b... Key excerpt: He also said a key portion of the piece — where he is quoted telling the reporter on his doorstep before two police officers, "I am no longer involved in that and I cannot discuss it" — was misunderstood. Nakamoto said he is a native of Beppu, Japan who came to the U.S. when he was 10. He speaks both English and Japanese, but his English isn't flawless. Asked if he said the quote, Nakamoto responded, "no." "I'm saying I'm no longer in engineering. That's it," he said of the exchange. "And even if I was, when we get hired, you have to sign this document, contract saying you will not reveal anything we divulge during and after employment. So that's what I implied."

jballanc 13y ago

Hahaha...well played! This guy, whoever he is, is definitely one step ahead of the rest of us. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would know that it's effectively impossible to remain truly anonymous in this day and age. So what do you do if you want to be left alone? Either you make sure you have enough "insurance" that no one would risk messing with you, or you play the system against itself: leak just enough information to lead people down your trail but not so much that the trail can't equally plausibly be denied. It's all rather reminiscent of Vinnie "The Chin" Gigante's decades-long ruse of feigned insanity to avoid prosecution. Side note: I think the last high-profile anonymous figure that managed to remain truly anonymous for any length of time was "Deep Throat", and he did all of his talking pre-internet.

dinkumthinkum 13y ago
This is strange ... Really ... But I thought I'd say, have you ever thought that some people may have succeeded in being "anonymous" or hidden by the simple that you have not heard of them?
declan 13y ago
I've used anonymous sources in many articles. All were published in the Internet era. Not one of my sources was ever involuntarily outed, as far as I know.

csense 13y ago

Readers who believe Dorian != Satoshi: What would you have to see to convince you that Dorian == Satoshi? Readers who believe Dorian == Satoshi: What would you have to see to convince you that Dorian != Satoshi? The hallmark of a good belief system is that your beliefs are falsifiable -- there exists some hypothetical set of experiments which could return unexpected results that would make you change your beliefs.