8 ms·

I have found out in life that women can also be dependable, fun to hang out with, and not "complicate things." Using "bro" is offensive because it excludes oth

I have found out in life that women can also be dependable, fun to hang out with, and not "complicate things." Using "bro" is offensive because it excludes others by their gender. It's an awful exclusionary term and you shouldn't think it funny or ironic. You're not taking this serious. I'm guessing because you haven't any idea of how soul crushing it can be to see this kind of behavior in the workplace when you're at the other end. It fucking sucks.

lhnz 13y ago
Are you winding me up? Was man also misogynistic? Besides: curl --header "X-GirlsAreBrosToo: 1" www.bropages.org
- chrisrhoden 13y ago
  > Was man also misogynistic? man is short for manual. What is bro short for?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - dictum 13y ago
    Brother. (I couldn't resist.)
  - nailer 13y ago
    Same as chairman, they're all short for manus, which is 'hand' in Latin.
  - cdcarter 13y ago
    Brochure. Which, despite the tounge-in-cheek joke I was trying to make, actually tends to be a shorter and more example driven document about a product.
    - zhemao 13y ago
      That's actually hilarious. Very clever. I don't think the people complaining about the name in this thread will appreciate the joke, though.
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  You're shitting us right? Manpages referred to manuals, not men. But given that I'm obviously swimming against the tide here at HN I'll just cave ..... Word, brah! Like, totally right on! We should be making like 'sispages' next with like only explanations and shit. Get it? For like the sissy-grammers! Awesome dude. You da bomb!
  - lhnz 13y ago
    Yes, I was kidding about 'man', but my point is that 'bro' isn't that exclusionary. In fact, I think the problem here is that a lot of geeks don't like 'bros' and I am doubting that they're hated by women as much. Personal opinion here, but: a lot of women have friends that are bros; a lot fewer geeks have friends that are bros.
    - couchand 13y ago
      Curious that you seem to think that women and geeks are mutually exclusive groups...
      - lhnz 13y ago
        No I didn't say that. I think that is completely false. >> A lot of geeks don't like 'bros' and I am doubting that they're hated by women as much. Personal opinion here, but: a lot of women have friends that are bros; a lot fewer geeks have friends that are bros. I think women that are geeks also have fewer 'bro' friends. Geek is a property of men and women, it is not a mutually-exclusive group. Nice try, trying to implicate me in sexism but I do not like it when people try to read things into what I say that I've never implied. I intended one thing, stop trying to use it against me... What I am saying is that I think a group of non-genderised geeks define the label 'bro' by its negative connotations more so than the greater super set of non-geeks (even those which are of the female gender.) It's a case of a new set of people 'bros' joining another set of people 'geeks'; it's exactly the same group behaviour as you see when people from different cultures immigrate into a country; same us-vs-them group behaviour; same magnification and amplification of negative connotations. A bro is just a stereotype. People are people and you should get to know them first before rejecting them (and especially if there are negative behaviours that you want to treat.)
- endymi0n 13y ago
  it's actually the first thing a feminist programmer adds to her .bashrc: alias woman="man"
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
    Please, "their .bashrc" :-)
Killswitch 13y ago
broseriously.
mietek 13y ago
How have you been dealing with the existence of man pages thus far?
FreezerburnV 13y ago
To be fair, some people actually use "bro" as an neutral term. I call my wife "bro" all the time, she called one of her (female) students bro, etc. And I'm not trying to downplay any bad behavior by people you've had to interact/work with. Pretty much anything can be used in a negative way in a specific context, and people can be huge jerks. I'm merely trying to say that words which you think are offensive to one gender, can be used as a completely neutral term without any subtext other than friendliness. It's really a shame that this word has become so negative to you.
- chrisrhoden 13y ago
  It's really a shame that in the community with which you are currently participating, the word has acquired so many negative associations; I agree. I also call my (female) SO "bro" – in addition to a broad range of friends and family – in specific contexts. But I would never consider the word neutral or inclusive in the context of the tech community. Too much baggage. If any of the people I call "bro" were programmers plugged into the same world we are currently plugged into, I would not do it, period. The fact that everyone in this thread came into this with knowledge of the term "brogrammer" suggests to me that there shouldn't be much of an argument, but I guess that's just wishful thinking.
  - teh_klev 13y ago
    As soon as I saw the title I knew there'd be this brouhaha. For over twenty years my circle of male friends have been calling each other "bro", my female pals call their brothers "bro". All this was way before "bro" was misappropriated as a term of offence just because of one word - "brogrammer". This thread has seriously deviated into the twilight zone of reductio ad absurdum.
    - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
      I'm pretty sure the term "bro" was being used in particularly boneheaded circles as a term of misogynistic 'banter' way before the word 'brogrammer'.
benihana 13y ago
>It's an awful exclusionary term and you shouldn't think it funny or ironic. "Don't like things I don't like under any circumstances."
antihero 13y ago
My female friends and I all call each other "bro" "dude" and "guys".
Niten 13y ago
I appreciate your intent, but this line of reasoning about the implications of the term "bro" seems like a huge stretch to me. Being a male, should I likewise feel personally offended by the Emacs woman command, which is a similar and equally "exclusive" pun on man pages? http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/woman/index.html http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/woman/ind...
koala_advert 13y ago
Do you also get mad when people use the word "guys" to refer to more than one person of either sex?
- theorique 13y ago
  This may be a joke, but a lot of people actually do get upset by this!
  - ItendToDisagree 13y ago
    Just imagine how upset people would get if you referred to a mixed gender crowd as "ladies" "come on now ladies lets move the tour along" "Who you calling 'lady'!?" Guys really is just a historically ingrained shorthand. I don't think I've ever heard it used in this sort of context to cause harm. Using "Ladies" in this way, on the other hand, could cause yourself harm.
    - theorique 13y ago
      Back in school, my sports coaches would sometimes refer to all male groups as "ladies". However, I suspect this is not what you're talking about ;) As much as anything, I've heard many women refer to mixed gender groups as "guys" or "dudes". A lot of this "definition creep" is actually due to women themselves. Probably this is because the male identity is viewed as a source of power, and women seek this out and aim to identify with it. In other words, I don't think the use of "guys" generically is being driven by sexist men. I think it's being driven by blurring of gender roles and definitions, and adoption of these generic terms by women.
    - roel_v 13y ago
      Wtf are you talking about? People do that all the time.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
  "Guys" to include a mixed audience is how we get shit like "he" as default pronoun.
fleitz 13y ago
Thankfully we live in an age where gender is independent of sex so anyone can be a bro if they want to.
pstack 13y ago
Now, we're just being pedantic. I guess this is what we do on a lazy Saturday morning when we all just have to be offended and aghast at something. I don't even know what you're talking about with "soul crushing it can be to see this kind of behavior in the workplace". What behavior? naming a tool "bro"? Are you serious? I work with grown ups. Men and women of every age, background, and geography. They would take issue with cat-calls, gross innuendo, propositioning, and many other things. Not a single one of them would lose their shit over "bropages". You know, because we're all adults and have developed this sense of "things that matter" and "things that are trivial" and "things that don't even register". Of course, this seems to be half the current content of HN. Every day, long diatribes about the horrors of sexism that restate the same old bullshit and gets everyone worked up with no further understanding or patience derived from them.
- reallyseriously 13y ago
  You've nailed it here. Sexism and racism, etc. are serious issues but some people, for whatever reason, have lost all sense of perspective.
DonGateley 13y ago
"Using "bro" is offensive because it excludes others by their gender." You must have a huge problem with "him" then.
Dewie 13y ago
> I have found out in life that women can also be dependable, fun to hang out with, and not "complicate things." And there's nothing contradictory about that. Just because 'bro' is a man who might be all of that, doesn't mean that a woman can't be the same thing. Maybe she will not get the same nickname or term of endearment, but neither does that imply that she is qualitatively different from a 'bro'.
Crake 13y ago
>"bro" is offensive because it excludes others by their gender. It's an awful exclusionary term and you shouldn't think it funny or ironic. >You're not taking this serious. Well gee, I wonder why.

lhnz 13y ago

Are you winding me up? Was man also misogynistic? Besides: curl --header "X-GirlsAreBrosToo: 1" www.bropages.org

chrisrhoden 13y ago
> Was man also misogynistic? man is short for manual. What is bro short for?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- dictum 13y ago
  Brother. (I couldn't resist.)
- nailer 13y ago
  Same as chairman, they're all short for manus, which is 'hand' in Latin.
- cdcarter 13y ago
  Brochure. Which, despite the tounge-in-cheek joke I was trying to make, actually tends to be a shorter and more example driven document about a product.
  - zhemao 13y ago
    That's actually hilarious. Very clever. I don't think the people complaining about the name in this thread will appreciate the joke, though.
mtrimpe 13y ago
You're shitting us right? Manpages referred to manuals, not men. But given that I'm obviously swimming against the tide here at HN I'll just cave ..... Word, brah! Like, totally right on! We should be making like 'sispages' next with like only explanations and shit. Get it? For like the sissy-grammers! Awesome dude. You da bomb!
- lhnz 13y ago
  Yes, I was kidding about 'man', but my point is that 'bro' isn't that exclusionary. In fact, I think the problem here is that a lot of geeks don't like 'bros' and I am doubting that they're hated by women as much. Personal opinion here, but: a lot of women have friends that are bros; a lot fewer geeks have friends that are bros.
  - couchand 13y ago
    Curious that you seem to think that women and geeks are mutually exclusive groups...
    - lhnz 13y ago
      No I didn't say that. I think that is completely false. >> A lot of geeks don't like 'bros' and I am doubting that they're hated by women as much. Personal opinion here, but: a lot of women have friends that are bros; a lot fewer geeks have friends that are bros. I think women that are geeks also have fewer 'bro' friends. Geek is a property of men and women, it is not a mutually-exclusive group. Nice try, trying to implicate me in sexism but I do not like it when people try to read things into what I say that I've never implied. I intended one thing, stop trying to use it against me... What I am saying is that I think a group of non-genderised geeks define the label 'bro' by its negative connotations more so than the greater super set of non-geeks (even those which are of the female gender.) It's a case of a new set of people 'bros' joining another set of people 'geeks'; it's exactly the same group behaviour as you see when people from different cultures immigrate into a country; same us-vs-them group behaviour; same magnification and amplification of negative connotations. A bro is just a stereotype. People are people and you should get to know them first before rejecting them (and especially if there are negative behaviours that you want to treat.)
endymi0n 13y ago
it's actually the first thing a feminist programmer adds to her .bashrc: alias woman="man"
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
  Please, "their .bashrc" :-)

Killswitch 13y ago

broseriously.

mietek 13y ago

How have you been dealing with the existence of man pages thus far?

FreezerburnV 13y ago

To be fair, some people actually use "bro" as an neutral term. I call my wife "bro" all the time, she called one of her (female) students bro, etc. And I'm not trying to downplay any bad behavior by people you've had to interact/work with. Pretty much anything can be used in a negative way in a specific context, and people can be huge jerks. I'm merely trying to say that words which you think are offensive to one gender, can be used as a completely neutral term without any subtext other than friendliness. It's really a shame that this word has become so negative to you.

chrisrhoden 13y ago
It's really a shame that in the community with which you are currently participating, the word has acquired so many negative associations; I agree. I also call my (female) SO "bro" – in addition to a broad range of friends and family – in specific contexts. But I would never consider the word neutral or inclusive in the context of the tech community. Too much baggage. If any of the people I call "bro" were programmers plugged into the same world we are currently plugged into, I would not do it, period. The fact that everyone in this thread came into this with knowledge of the term "brogrammer" suggests to me that there shouldn't be much of an argument, but I guess that's just wishful thinking.
- teh_klev 13y ago
  As soon as I saw the title I knew there'd be this brouhaha. For over twenty years my circle of male friends have been calling each other "bro", my female pals call their brothers "bro". All this was way before "bro" was misappropriated as a term of offence just because of one word - "brogrammer". This thread has seriously deviated into the twilight zone of reductio ad absurdum.
  - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
    I'm pretty sure the term "bro" was being used in particularly boneheaded circles as a term of misogynistic 'banter' way before the word 'brogrammer'.

benihana 13y ago

>It's an awful exclusionary term and you shouldn't think it funny or ironic. "Don't like things I don't like under any circumstances."

antihero 13y ago

My female friends and I all call each other "bro" "dude" and "guys".

Niten 13y ago

I appreciate your intent, but this line of reasoning about the implications of the term "bro" seems like a huge stretch to me. Being a male, should I likewise feel personally offended by the Emacs woman command, which is a similar and equally "exclusive" pun on man pages? http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/woman/index.html http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/woman/ind...

koala_advert 13y ago

Do you also get mad when people use the word "guys" to refer to more than one person of either sex?

theorique 13y ago
This may be a joke, but a lot of people actually do get upset by this!
- ItendToDisagree 13y ago
  Just imagine how upset people would get if you referred to a mixed gender crowd as "ladies" "come on now ladies lets move the tour along" "Who you calling 'lady'!?" Guys really is just a historically ingrained shorthand. I don't think I've ever heard it used in this sort of context to cause harm. Using "Ladies" in this way, on the other hand, could cause yourself harm.
  - theorique 13y ago
    Back in school, my sports coaches would sometimes refer to all male groups as "ladies". However, I suspect this is not what you're talking about ;) As much as anything, I've heard many women refer to mixed gender groups as "guys" or "dudes". A lot of this "definition creep" is actually due to women themselves. Probably this is because the male identity is viewed as a source of power, and women seek this out and aim to identify with it. In other words, I don't think the use of "guys" generically is being driven by sexist men. I think it's being driven by blurring of gender roles and definitions, and adoption of these generic terms by women.
  - roel_v 13y ago
    Wtf are you talking about? People do that all the time.
GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
"Guys" to include a mixed audience is how we get shit like "he" as default pronoun.

fleitz 13y ago

Thankfully we live in an age where gender is independent of sex so anyone can be a bro if they want to.

pstack 13y ago

Now, we're just being pedantic. I guess this is what we do on a lazy Saturday morning when we all just have to be offended and aghast at something. I don't even know what you're talking about with "soul crushing it can be to see this kind of behavior in the workplace". What behavior? naming a tool "bro"? Are you serious? I work with grown ups. Men and women of every age, background, and geography. They would take issue with cat-calls, gross innuendo, propositioning, and many other things. Not a single one of them would lose their shit over "bropages". You know, because we're all adults and have developed this sense of "things that matter" and "things that are trivial" and "things that don't even register". Of course, this seems to be half the current content of HN. Every day, long diatribes about the horrors of sexism that restate the same old bullshit and gets everyone worked up with no further understanding or patience derived from them.

reallyseriously 13y ago
You've nailed it here. Sexism and racism, etc. are serious issues but some people, for whatever reason, have lost all sense of perspective.

DonGateley 13y ago

"Using "bro" is offensive because it excludes others by their gender." You must have a huge problem with "him" then.

Dewie 13y ago

> I have found out in life that women can also be dependable, fun to hang out with, and not "complicate things." And there's nothing contradictory about that. Just because 'bro' is a man who might be all of that, doesn't mean that a woman can't be the same thing. Maybe she will not get the same nickname or term of endearment, but neither does that imply that she is qualitatively different from a 'bro'.

Crake 13y ago

>"bro" is offensive because it excludes others by their gender. It's an awful exclusionary term and you shouldn't think it funny or ironic. >You're not taking this serious. Well gee, I wonder why.