8 ms·

Nokia posts disappointing Lumia sales

47 points by thomholwerda 13y ago

iaskwhy 13y ago
Very poor article. Hopefully we get some better analysis from Asymco or someone else.
- vidyesh 13y ago
  Here you go https://twitter.com/asymco/status/426357753188466688 https://twitter.com/asymco/status/426357753188466688
thedrbrian 13y ago
But aren't they selling like gangbusters in Europe?
- iaskwhy 13y ago
  I don't think they released numbers per continent/region. Maybe they sold most of the 8m units in Europe. For comparison, Apple expected to announce between 50 to 59m iPhones sold last quarter. The results are usually a little bit better than the official guidance so maybe 60m. That means Nokia sold around 13% of what Apple probably did with the iPhone.
  - huxley 13y ago
    Sadly for Nokia, the majority of their sales will likely be the low margin 52x and 62x Lumias.
- runn1ng 13y ago
  They still do have strong brand here, but I would compare it to BlackBerry over there in US/Canada... people sort of know it, but nobody really buys it.
- yulaow 13y ago
  In some zones yes, in other nope. Anyway it seems that now worldwide they are under 3% (at least reading the article) and in the previous trimester they were around 3.4%, so they are losing ground. As other said in some sites, it is necessary to have a critical mass at least in US OR in CHINA. And in those markets wp is really... nothing.
- daliusd 13y ago
  Finland - maybe, anywhere else - meh. I see sometimes people with Windows Phones, but Android is ruling in the Europe. Nice table here: http://cdn3.tnwcdn.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2013/12/Chart-Kantar.jpg http://cdn3.tnwcdn.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2013/12/... I guess people who don't have money might buy Windows Phones as they are slightly cheaper (subsidies from MS?) but that is considered poor choice.
JaakkoP 13y ago
Here's a better article, although in Finnish http://www.hs.fi/talous/Nokian+puhelinihme+p%C3%A4%C3%A4ttyi+loppuvuonna+romahdukseen/a1390459401484?ref=hs-art-top-3 http://www.hs.fi/talous/Nokian+puhelinihme+p%C3%A4%C3%A4ttyi... I'm not completely surprised at the results. I've tried to be an advocate, but Microsoft's slow development cycle along with lack of apps frustrates me more and more. No Venmo, Uber, Lyft or almost any other new and useful app that comes out. The camera is still pretty great, but alone it's just not enough to get a Lumia at the moment.
- madoublet 13y ago
  I think the app selection has actually gotten pretty good, but I do not do much ride sharing. But, the problem for me is the ridiculously slow update cycle.
  - ams6110 13y ago
    Slow update cycles are an advantage to some buyers, and some people prefer stability over churn. Among consumers, that's a minority though.
yawz 13y ago
I said it at the time: "Two mobile-losers' getting together doesn't automatically make a winner". It's still the case. When you go beyond hard-core Nokia fans and MS fans, who buys Lumia?
- bergie 13y ago
  Google's Vic Gundotra said something similar back then: http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/09/googles-vic-gundotra-on-nokia-two-turkeys-do-not-make-an-eagl/ http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/09/googles-vic-gundotra-on-n...
- theg2 13y ago
  People who like me got tired of Android's fragmentation and constant "clunky" feeling (I got so sick of flashing roms just to get my battery to survive the day) and don't want to buy into the Apple ecosystem. I've had a Lumia 920 for over a year now and think its absolutely the best phone I've ever owned. Co-worker also go the same phone, and switched back to iOS so he could iMessage with his mom but otherwise loved the experience as well. It's a solid piece of hardware with a reliable and easy to use OS, other than a few missing apps (I'm not big into them myself), it's an impressive entry into the market.
  - danieldk 13y ago
    I have owned a Lumia 820 and 920. The hardware was absolutely great, but I have grown to dislike Windows Phone's shortcomings: - No separate volume control for the ringer, music, etc. I swear I've become almost deaf twice. - No notification center. I do believe tiles are great, but they are not enough alone. I quickly want to have an overview of new messages, if possible reply inline. - Sometimes I had random reboots (on both phones). Sometimes I couldn't turn the phone off (it would immediately start again). - You cannot put applications on an SD card, which was annoying, given the 820's 8GB. - There is a serious lack of applications. The applications that are there are generally of a bad quality. Even Microsoft's Facebook application is flaky compared to the iOS and Android counterparts. I sold both phones and bought a Nexus 4, which I am very happy with, and has great battery life (not noticeably better or worse than the 920). I still like the iPhone the most (I had iPhones for 4.5 years), but the extra value of a 5s or 5c is not worth the price difference between an iPhone and a Nexus to me.
tluyben2 13y ago
Not too surprising; outside HN comments I have yet to find anyone actually liking these phones here (in the EU). Most people I know who have one (including me) like the hardware but not the software and they don't like the hardware enough to not get an iPhone or Android. I tried to like it but it's gathering dust only to be swept off when a client wants to order an app for it from us. After that it goes into the drawer again. From non tech people I usually hear complaints about it still just not working all too well (annoying to hook up to computers, not being able to easily put movies and music on them compared to android/ios, no worthwhile apps compared, random crashes). Like said; the only positive things I hear about it are raving HN'ers here or MS employees on Facebook.
- freehunter 13y ago
  As one of those raving HN'ers (although not an MS employee) who now uses an iPhone, all of those things you mention are legitimate issues, and I don't know many WP owners who would disagree. The real heartbreaker is that even with these seemingly show-stopping issues, WP combined with Nokia hardware is so good that it's hard to turn away from. Even though the software has so many issues that have been unresolved for so long, it's still that good. It was a tough choice to give it up, I only did so because it had let me down on more than a few occasions where I really needed it. The last time I found a mobile OS that instilled that level of "so good it doesn't matter that it's bad" was WebOS, and I frequently compare the two. Unfortunately, I see the same future for WP as what WebOS got.
  - EnderMB 13y ago
    This was the feeling I had when I had played with the recent versions of WP. It felt like a fantastic OS, and the hardware ran it brilliantly. My own personal showstopper isn't a fault with the OS, but with how the phones look. Nokia just seems so far behind in terms of designing an attractive phone. If Nokia were to release a phone that looked as nice as my Galaxy Nexus, had a large screen, and didn't cost an absolute bomb I'd probably go for WP over Android.
    - Juha 13y ago
mnglkhn2 13y ago
On Windows Phone, one thing that I like a lot is Nokia's HERE suite (maps and turn-by-turn navigation). Free and really good. The hardware is good and the OS is nice too. One thing I was impressed is that it seems actually easier to develop for Windows Phone than for iOS or Android.
- colkassad 13y ago
  I have a Lumia 920 and I find the turn-by-turn navigation to be abysmal. It gives distances in yards and the vocabulary does not extend much past "keep right", "keep left", and "follow the course of the road". It's also flat our wrong more often than not where I live. Google tells you street names and exit numbers, which is vital in large metropolitan areas. Also, map searching is no where near as good as Google Maps.
  - miguelrochefort 13y ago
    > It gives distances in yards Have not you heard of settings?
  - HelloMcFly 13y ago
    Two things: 1) you can change the distance units, and 2) the app will pronounces the names of many commonly-named streets, but it is certainly true that its vocabulary is much smaller than some other options.
- miguelrochefort 13y ago
  The Windows Phone development tools are amazing indeed. Getting to work with MVVM and XAML is pure bliss. The emulator is great too (much better than any Android one). Blendability (the ability to see design data in real time) is probably my favorite feature (beside using C#, Visual Studio, etc).
awjr 13y ago
My ex-neighbour is 'high' up in Nokia and I can remember having a conversation about how the Lumia would make a fantastic Android phone. I think he mentioned in passing that there was a team that briefly looked into making an Nokia Android phone, but this was killed off before the Microsoft buyout. It's one of those phones I would buy immediately if they did an Android version. It's a very very nice piece of kit (in particular the camera) but if it doesn't run the apps you use on a daily basis, you are not going to touch it with a barge pole. Unfortunately this will never happen. Microsoft would, in effect, be admitting their mobile platform is a dead end.
- sp332 13y ago
  There's been a lot of talk recently about a Nokia Android phone. Apparently it's called "Project Normandy". https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/10/5197746/nokia-android-phone-normandy https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/10/5197746/nokia-android-ph...
  - mtgx 13y ago
    But is it really an Android phone if it doesn't come with Play Store apps? Also, I think what people mean by wanting a Lumia with Android, is not a low-end phone with Android, but a more high-end one.
    - rthomas6 13y ago
      If it can run Android, I'll put Play Store apps on it, regardless of whether or not they come with the ROM. Granted, rooting a phone and putting a new ROM on it isn't exactly user friendly or easy for most people.
- bhauer 13y ago
  This sentiment that Nokia should make or should have made Android phones is common. I won't disagree with the article that Lumia sales are disappointing and that Nokia would have faced much harder decisions today were they not part of Microsoft. But I find it surprising how often I hear fans of Android bemoan the dearth of Nokia Android phones. It implies that there is some hole in the Android market that would be filled by Nokia. That is remarkable—I'd go so far to say implausible—considering the wide spectrum of manufacturers already providing Android hardware. A quick glance at Verizon's current offerings shows seven manufacturers offering Android phones via Verizon, many with multiple options. Meanwhile, for fans of Windows Phone—few of those as there may be—we have Nokia, Samsung, and HTC, offering one option each. And if rumors are to believed, Samsung may only be offering Windows Phone thanks to Microsoft paying them to do so. To suggest that Nokia should offer Android phones implies there is some subtle quirk or distinguishing design element that would make a Nokia android preferable to the seven existing Android manufacturers' offerings. Certainly there isn't anything as substantial as a wholly new look and feel or new way of working with applications to distinguish the potential Nokia Android phone from those seven other manufacturers. So it would be something like the color of the case, maybe a few proprietary apps, the material, a few minor specs such as a good camera or wireless charging. Though many existing Android phones offer all of those things and more. Meanwhile, being the principal Windows Phone manufacturer brings actual variation to the consumer. In fact, taking away the operating system, the Lumia hardware is not very unique. Spec-by-spec, it's about on par with an average Android phone. But it piqued my interest because it's not-Android and I wanted something new to try having become tired of the same old thing. My wife is now waiting for the Icon to be released to replace her Galaxy Nexus because she too wants to move on. So yes, Nokia's sales are disappointing. Maybe they will look up in the future. Maybe not. But as a consumer, I treasure that they offer something more interesting than just another Android phone.
F1reman 13y ago
Not surprising at all. Nokia should have move to Android 5 years ago when Samsung did.
- chiph 13y ago
  But moving to Android means they're running a commodity OS, and they're competing against all the low-price phones from China. That would kill the company. They needed to offer a premium phone with an OS that is just compatible enough with desktops to work. I've had a Lumia 928 for several months now (after 3 iPhones in a row), and my concern is that Microsoft isn't releasing OS updates fast enough. I get updates from Nokia for their HERE apps, but the core OS needs some fixes (single volume control, compilation albums being split up in the music app), and I'm not seeing them.
  - rthomas6 13y ago
    What about Samsung and HTC? They have high-end successful Android phones. Though I haven't looked at the financials of the company or anything... are they not doing well?
    - pmelendez 13y ago
      I don't think HTC is doing very well so it would be just Samsung and they are competing for the premium segment so the cheap Chinese phone are not really a concern for them, but Nokia needed something else to differentiate, hence their choice for WP.
    - FigBug 13y ago
      Samsung takes 95% of Android profits. HTC, Motorla, LG, Sony etc get to fight for the rest. I wonder how long Google is willing to be Samsung's R&D department for free.
      - rthomas6 13y ago
        Wow, that's unfortunate. Those other companies have phones that are just as nice as the Galaxy line, in my opinion. Especially HTC with the One.
leoedin 13y ago
I think porting my app to WP would be quite fun. I like C#/.NET, I like VS. What I don't like is Windows 8. I'm not willing to install Windows 8 just so that I can develop an app for a small number of users. Surely MS would help themselves by letting Windows 7 users develop for WP? Their ecosystem is small but their development platform is, in my eyes, the nicest of the bunch. The bulk of the various mobile app stores are filled with apps developed as a hobby, and requiring Windows 8 is a huge hurdle for a hobbyist.
- theg2 13y ago
  The underlying API's don't allow for it (at least that's what Microsoft is saying). Although I don't fully understand what you could have against Windows 8 so much that it would stop you from developing an app. If it's Metro, you won't ever have to enter it.
- miguelrochefort 13y ago
  What don't you like about Windows 8? As someone who developped for iOS, Android and Windows Phone/8, I prefer (by far) the MS ecosystem and tools. It's just nicer to use, and I can build an app in a fraction of the time (for the same quality) as it takes with other platforms. With Xamarin, things will get even better (I'll get to use VS for 80% of my work).
- Zigurd 13y ago
  You are right about the development platform... BUT: 1. The difference between usability of Eclipse, XCode, and VS has narrowed. Eclipse, especially, has slowly but steadily improved, and if that isn't sufficient, Google also has IDEA-based Android Studio in pre-release. 2. Windows is everywhere, but not the same anywhere. Different for two different CPUs in tablets, different on the desktop, different on handsets. While Android is not a direct replacement for Windows, it is the same everywhere, especially in terms of app compatibility at every API level, and in forward compatibility. Android has the best technology for scaling a single executable across many screen sizes and "distances." So expect Android in phones, tablets, cars, appliances, etc. running the same apps.
jawns 13y ago
I was seriously considering getting a Lumia 1020 purely because of the camera, which gets rave reviews everywhere. I was even willing to abandon Android and put up with the Windows OS. But unfortunately, to buy it unlocked would cost $600, and the only carrier that was subsidizing it was AT&T, which I have sworn off. In the end, I got a Samsung S4 Zoom. Its camera is second only to the Lumia, it's got a great xenon flash, I get to stick with Android, it cost only about $350 unlocked, and it works on a GSM network MVNO, so my cellphone bill ends up being $40/mo., instead of $85/mo. on AT&T.
- nailer 13y ago
  > But unfortunately, to buy it unlocked would cost $600, and the only carrier that was subsidizing it was AT&T, which I have sworn off. All phones cost that much. 'subsidized' phones cost much more. Unless someone's poor enough to need a carrier plan to buy a smartphone - which, then again, they should avoid going into debt even more - then an unlocked phone is by far the cheapest option. A pity Nokia (and other companies that sell smartphones upfront) have to educate people in the basics of personal finance before they can sell a unit (not picking on you specifically, the belief that one 'saves money' by buying a carrier-locked subsidised phone is pretty common).
  - wting 13y ago
    The Nexus and Moto family of phones have proven otherwise with prices ranging from $180 - $350.
  - masklinn 13y ago
    > an unlocked phone is by far the cheapest option. That assumes the carrier provides equivalent but lower-priced subsidies-free plans. Otherwise the would-be subsidy ends up as additional profits in the carrier's pocket.
    - jawns 13y ago
      Exactly. If I'm going to go with a particular carrier anyway, then it's better to go with a subsidized phone, unless I get a discount for bringing my own unlocked phone. The error that nailer thinks I made, I did not make.
pavlov 13y ago
The dubious comfort in the mobile phone market is that when you're weak, there's always someone doing much worse still. While Nokia managed to sell 8.2 million Lumias last quarter, Blackberry sold only 1.1 million BB10 devices in the same timeframe. The old brands have certainly fallen quick and hard.
felickz2 13y ago
I am rather sure that having so many phones exclusive to ATT is not helping their cause. I would call that sandbagging the numbers to have 1 phone (928), 2 "Nokia Generations" of releases behind on the largest (BY FAR) smartphone provider in the USA (Verizon). Lumia 929 has been FCC approved since November, WHERE IS IT? The holy grail 1020 still exclusive to ATT, if the numbers are so disappointing put a CDMA radio in it and SELL IT!
- freehunter 13y ago
  If I remember correctly, Verizon doesn't particularly want Windows Phones. They sure aren't pushing very hard to get them.
chflamplighter 13y ago
Lumia 928 owner and I love my phone, for me the OS/HW is great. To me, it feels like a lot of the dissatisfaction centers around the fact that WP is an MS product. Of course there are things that could be enhanced or done better but compared with my past experience with iOS and Android, WP is tops for me. That being said, it is a beautiful thing to have choice so more power to the iOS and Android users. Get in where you fit in!
ladzoppelin 13y ago
" tluyben2 41 minutes ago | link Not too surprising; outside HN comments I have yet to find anyone actually liking these phones here (in the EU). Most people I know who have one (including me) like the hardware but not the software and they don't like the hardware enough to not get an iPhone or Android. I tried to like it but it's gathering dust only to be swept off when a client wants to order an app for it from us. After that it goes into the drawer again." Nokia 928 is an amazing phone and Windows 8 phone is really smooth. An article on HN yesterday talked about the rise of these phones in specific markets one them being Europe. Most people I know that actually own one really like it and think its much better than Android. Obviously the previous comment is just an opinion and not fact.
notdrunkatall 13y ago
I bought a Lumia 620 for $70 on Amazon and hooked it up through Straight Talk on their $45/unlimited plan, and frankly, it's pretty great. The O/S is fluid and pretty, the phone works fine, the battery life's really good, it does everything I need to. Really, I have no complaints.
pmelendez 13y ago
I am a bit confused by this, the author actually edited the numbers ( "Nokia has confirmed it sold 8.2 million Lumias in Q4" ) which is the double of 2012. How is that "disappointing"?
- adrianlmm 13y ago
  Is not a surprise, the Osnews editor is well know for being anti-Nokia since their aliance with MS, so spect more from him.
AnotherDesigner 13y ago
I like the design language Microsoft came up with for Windows Phone. So I bought a Nokia Lumia phone. I quickly regretted it. This was before Windows Phone 8 was released but we were promised "many of the features" with Windows Phone 7.8. I waited, and waited, and waited. Eventually I was told that they had changed their minds and Windows Phone 7.8 wouldn't even be coming to my particular phone. Windows Phone 7 is missing a lot of very basic features. It's time consuming and frustrating using it even for the most basic tasks. The web browser is terrible. It lacks most popular 3rd-party services and apps. And the camera seems to be programmed to take out-of-focus photos. I will never buy another Nokia phone, or Windows Phone, again. They had their chance.

47 points by thomholwerda 13y ago

iaskwhy 13y ago

Very poor article. Hopefully we get some better analysis from Asymco or someone else.

vidyesh 13y ago
Here you go https://twitter.com/asymco/status/426357753188466688 https://twitter.com/asymco/status/426357753188466688

thedrbrian 13y ago

But aren't they selling like gangbusters in Europe?

iaskwhy 13y ago
I don't think they released numbers per continent/region. Maybe they sold most of the 8m units in Europe. For comparison, Apple expected to announce between 50 to 59m iPhones sold last quarter. The results are usually a little bit better than the official guidance so maybe 60m. That means Nokia sold around 13% of what Apple probably did with the iPhone.
- huxley 13y ago
  Sadly for Nokia, the majority of their sales will likely be the low margin 52x and 62x Lumias.
runn1ng 13y ago
They still do have strong brand here, but I would compare it to BlackBerry over there in US/Canada... people sort of know it, but nobody really buys it.
yulaow 13y ago
In some zones yes, in other nope. Anyway it seems that now worldwide they are under 3% (at least reading the article) and in the previous trimester they were around 3.4%, so they are losing ground. As other said in some sites, it is necessary to have a critical mass at least in US OR in CHINA. And in those markets wp is really... nothing.
daliusd 13y ago
Finland - maybe, anywhere else - meh. I see sometimes people with Windows Phones, but Android is ruling in the Europe. Nice table here: http://cdn3.tnwcdn.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2013/12/Chart-Kantar.jpg http://cdn3.tnwcdn.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2013/12/... I guess people who don't have money might buy Windows Phones as they are slightly cheaper (subsidies from MS?) but that is considered poor choice.

JaakkoP 13y ago

Here's a better article, although in Finnish http://www.hs.fi/talous/Nokian+puhelinihme+p%C3%A4%C3%A4ttyi+loppuvuonna+romahdukseen/a1390459401484?ref=hs-art-top-3 http://www.hs.fi/talous/Nokian+puhelinihme+p%C3%A4%C3%A4ttyi... I'm not completely surprised at the results. I've tried to be an advocate, but Microsoft's slow development cycle along with lack of apps frustrates me more and more. No Venmo, Uber, Lyft or almost any other new and useful app that comes out. The camera is still pretty great, but alone it's just not enough to get a Lumia at the moment.

madoublet 13y ago
I think the app selection has actually gotten pretty good, but I do not do much ride sharing. But, the problem for me is the ridiculously slow update cycle.
- ams6110 13y ago
  Slow update cycles are an advantage to some buyers, and some people prefer stability over churn. Among consumers, that's a minority though.

yawz 13y ago

I said it at the time: "Two mobile-losers' getting together doesn't automatically make a winner". It's still the case. When you go beyond hard-core Nokia fans and MS fans, who buys Lumia?

bergie 13y ago
Google's Vic Gundotra said something similar back then: http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/09/googles-vic-gundotra-on-nokia-two-turkeys-do-not-make-an-eagl/ http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/09/googles-vic-gundotra-on-n...
theg2 13y ago
People who like me got tired of Android's fragmentation and constant "clunky" feeling (I got so sick of flashing roms just to get my battery to survive the day) and don't want to buy into the Apple ecosystem. I've had a Lumia 920 for over a year now and think its absolutely the best phone I've ever owned. Co-worker also go the same phone, and switched back to iOS so he could iMessage with his mom but otherwise loved the experience as well. It's a solid piece of hardware with a reliable and easy to use OS, other than a few missing apps (I'm not big into them myself), it's an impressive entry into the market.
- danieldk 13y ago
  I have owned a Lumia 820 and 920. The hardware was absolutely great, but I have grown to dislike Windows Phone's shortcomings: - No separate volume control for the ringer, music, etc. I swear I've become almost deaf twice. - No notification center. I do believe tiles are great, but they are not enough alone. I quickly want to have an overview of new messages, if possible reply inline. - Sometimes I had random reboots (on both phones). Sometimes I couldn't turn the phone off (it would immediately start again). - You cannot put applications on an SD card, which was annoying, given the 820's 8GB. - There is a serious lack of applications. The applications that are there are generally of a bad quality. Even Microsoft's Facebook application is flaky compared to the iOS and Android counterparts. I sold both phones and bought a Nexus 4, which I am very happy with, and has great battery life (not noticeably better or worse than the 920). I still like the iPhone the most (I had iPhones for 4.5 years), but the extra value of a 5s or 5c is not worth the price difference between an iPhone and a Nexus to me.

tluyben2 13y ago

Not too surprising; outside HN comments I have yet to find anyone actually liking these phones here (in the EU). Most people I know who have one (including me) like the hardware but not the software and they don't like the hardware enough to not get an iPhone or Android. I tried to like it but it's gathering dust only to be swept off when a client wants to order an app for it from us. After that it goes into the drawer again. From non tech people I usually hear complaints about it still just not working all too well (annoying to hook up to computers, not being able to easily put movies and music on them compared to android/ios, no worthwhile apps compared, random crashes). Like said; the only positive things I hear about it are raving HN'ers here or MS employees on Facebook.

freehunter 13y ago
As one of those raving HN'ers (although not an MS employee) who now uses an iPhone, all of those things you mention are legitimate issues, and I don't know many WP owners who would disagree. The real heartbreaker is that even with these seemingly show-stopping issues, WP combined with Nokia hardware is so good that it's hard to turn away from. Even though the software has so many issues that have been unresolved for so long, it's still that good. It was a tough choice to give it up, I only did so because it had let me down on more than a few occasions where I really needed it. The last time I found a mobile OS that instilled that level of "so good it doesn't matter that it's bad" was WebOS, and I frequently compare the two. Unfortunately, I see the same future for WP as what WebOS got.
- EnderMB 13y ago
  This was the feeling I had when I had played with the recent versions of WP. It felt like a fantastic OS, and the hardware ran it brilliantly. My own personal showstopper isn't a fault with the OS, but with how the phones look. Nokia just seems so far behind in terms of designing an attractive phone. If Nokia were to release a phone that looked as nice as my Galaxy Nexus, had a large screen, and didn't cost an absolute bomb I'd probably go for WP over Android.
  - Juha 13y ago

mnglkhn2 13y ago

On Windows Phone, one thing that I like a lot is Nokia's HERE suite (maps and turn-by-turn navigation). Free and really good. The hardware is good and the OS is nice too. One thing I was impressed is that it seems actually easier to develop for Windows Phone than for iOS or Android.

colkassad 13y ago
I have a Lumia 920 and I find the turn-by-turn navigation to be abysmal. It gives distances in yards and the vocabulary does not extend much past "keep right", "keep left", and "follow the course of the road". It's also flat our wrong more often than not where I live. Google tells you street names and exit numbers, which is vital in large metropolitan areas. Also, map searching is no where near as good as Google Maps.
- miguelrochefort 13y ago
  > It gives distances in yards Have not you heard of settings?
- HelloMcFly 13y ago
  Two things: 1) you can change the distance units, and 2) the app will pronounces the names of many commonly-named streets, but it is certainly true that its vocabulary is much smaller than some other options.
miguelrochefort 13y ago
The Windows Phone development tools are amazing indeed. Getting to work with MVVM and XAML is pure bliss. The emulator is great too (much better than any Android one). Blendability (the ability to see design data in real time) is probably my favorite feature (beside using C#, Visual Studio, etc).

awjr 13y ago

My ex-neighbour is 'high' up in Nokia and I can remember having a conversation about how the Lumia would make a fantastic Android phone. I think he mentioned in passing that there was a team that briefly looked into making an Nokia Android phone, but this was killed off before the Microsoft buyout. It's one of those phones I would buy immediately if they did an Android version. It's a very very nice piece of kit (in particular the camera) but if it doesn't run the apps you use on a daily basis, you are not going to touch it with a barge pole. Unfortunately this will never happen. Microsoft would, in effect, be admitting their mobile platform is a dead end.

sp332 13y ago
There's been a lot of talk recently about a Nokia Android phone. Apparently it's called "Project Normandy". https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/10/5197746/nokia-android-phone-normandy https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/10/5197746/nokia-android-ph...
- mtgx 13y ago
  But is it really an Android phone if it doesn't come with Play Store apps? Also, I think what people mean by wanting a Lumia with Android, is not a low-end phone with Android, but a more high-end one.
  - rthomas6 13y ago
    If it can run Android, I'll put Play Store apps on it, regardless of whether or not they come with the ROM. Granted, rooting a phone and putting a new ROM on it isn't exactly user friendly or easy for most people.
bhauer 13y ago
This sentiment that Nokia should make or should have made Android phones is common. I won't disagree with the article that Lumia sales are disappointing and that Nokia would have faced much harder decisions today were they not part of Microsoft. But I find it surprising how often I hear fans of Android bemoan the dearth of Nokia Android phones. It implies that there is some hole in the Android market that would be filled by Nokia. That is remarkable—I'd go so far to say implausible—considering the wide spectrum of manufacturers already providing Android hardware. A quick glance at Verizon's current offerings shows seven manufacturers offering Android phones via Verizon, many with multiple options. Meanwhile, for fans of Windows Phone—few of those as there may be—we have Nokia, Samsung, and HTC, offering one option each. And if rumors are to believed, Samsung may only be offering Windows Phone thanks to Microsoft paying them to do so. To suggest that Nokia should offer Android phones implies there is some subtle quirk or distinguishing design element that would make a Nokia android preferable to the seven existing Android manufacturers' offerings. Certainly there isn't anything as substantial as a wholly new look and feel or new way of working with applications to distinguish the potential Nokia Android phone from those seven other manufacturers. So it would be something like the color of the case, maybe a few proprietary apps, the material, a few minor specs such as a good camera or wireless charging. Though many existing Android phones offer all of those things and more. Meanwhile, being the principal Windows Phone manufacturer brings actual variation to the consumer. In fact, taking away the operating system, the Lumia hardware is not very unique. Spec-by-spec, it's about on par with an average Android phone. But it piqued my interest because it's not-Android and I wanted something new to try having become tired of the same old thing. My wife is now waiting for the Icon to be released to replace her Galaxy Nexus because she too wants to move on. So yes, Nokia's sales are disappointing. Maybe they will look up in the future. Maybe not. But as a consumer, I treasure that they offer something more interesting than just another Android phone.

F1reman 13y ago

Not surprising at all. Nokia should have move to Android 5 years ago when Samsung did.

chiph 13y ago
But moving to Android means they're running a commodity OS, and they're competing against all the low-price phones from China. That would kill the company. They needed to offer a premium phone with an OS that is just compatible enough with desktops to work. I've had a Lumia 928 for several months now (after 3 iPhones in a row), and my concern is that Microsoft isn't releasing OS updates fast enough. I get updates from Nokia for their HERE apps, but the core OS needs some fixes (single volume control, compilation albums being split up in the music app), and I'm not seeing them.
- rthomas6 13y ago
  What about Samsung and HTC? They have high-end successful Android phones. Though I haven't looked at the financials of the company or anything... are they not doing well?
  - pmelendez 13y ago
    I don't think HTC is doing very well so it would be just Samsung and they are competing for the premium segment so the cheap Chinese phone are not really a concern for them, but Nokia needed something else to differentiate, hence their choice for WP.
  - FigBug 13y ago
    Samsung takes 95% of Android profits. HTC, Motorla, LG, Sony etc get to fight for the rest. I wonder how long Google is willing to be Samsung's R&D department for free.
    - rthomas6 13y ago
      Wow, that's unfortunate. Those other companies have phones that are just as nice as the Galaxy line, in my opinion. Especially HTC with the One.

leoedin 13y ago

I think porting my app to WP would be quite fun. I like C#/.NET, I like VS. What I don't like is Windows 8. I'm not willing to install Windows 8 just so that I can develop an app for a small number of users. Surely MS would help themselves by letting Windows 7 users develop for WP? Their ecosystem is small but their development platform is, in my eyes, the nicest of the bunch. The bulk of the various mobile app stores are filled with apps developed as a hobby, and requiring Windows 8 is a huge hurdle for a hobbyist.

theg2 13y ago
The underlying API's don't allow for it (at least that's what Microsoft is saying). Although I don't fully understand what you could have against Windows 8 so much that it would stop you from developing an app. If it's Metro, you won't ever have to enter it.
miguelrochefort 13y ago
What don't you like about Windows 8? As someone who developped for iOS, Android and Windows Phone/8, I prefer (by far) the MS ecosystem and tools. It's just nicer to use, and I can build an app in a fraction of the time (for the same quality) as it takes with other platforms. With Xamarin, things will get even better (I'll get to use VS for 80% of my work).
Zigurd 13y ago
You are right about the development platform... BUT: 1. The difference between usability of Eclipse, XCode, and VS has narrowed. Eclipse, especially, has slowly but steadily improved, and if that isn't sufficient, Google also has IDEA-based Android Studio in pre-release. 2. Windows is everywhere, but not the same anywhere. Different for two different CPUs in tablets, different on the desktop, different on handsets. While Android is not a direct replacement for Windows, it is the same everywhere, especially in terms of app compatibility at every API level, and in forward compatibility. Android has the best technology for scaling a single executable across many screen sizes and "distances." So expect Android in phones, tablets, cars, appliances, etc. running the same apps.

jawns 13y ago

I was seriously considering getting a Lumia 1020 purely because of the camera, which gets rave reviews everywhere. I was even willing to abandon Android and put up with the Windows OS. But unfortunately, to buy it unlocked would cost $600, and the only carrier that was subsidizing it was AT&T, which I have sworn off. In the end, I got a Samsung S4 Zoom. Its camera is second only to the Lumia, it's got a great xenon flash, I get to stick with Android, it cost only about $350 unlocked, and it works on a GSM network MVNO, so my cellphone bill ends up being $40/mo., instead of $85/mo. on AT&T.

nailer 13y ago
> But unfortunately, to buy it unlocked would cost $600, and the only carrier that was subsidizing it was AT&T, which I have sworn off. All phones cost that much. 'subsidized' phones cost much more. Unless someone's poor enough to need a carrier plan to buy a smartphone - which, then again, they should avoid going into debt even more - then an unlocked phone is by far the cheapest option. A pity Nokia (and other companies that sell smartphones upfront) have to educate people in the basics of personal finance before they can sell a unit (not picking on you specifically, the belief that one 'saves money' by buying a carrier-locked subsidised phone is pretty common).
- wting 13y ago
  The Nexus and Moto family of phones have proven otherwise with prices ranging from $180 - $350.
- masklinn 13y ago
  > an unlocked phone is by far the cheapest option. That assumes the carrier provides equivalent but lower-priced subsidies-free plans. Otherwise the would-be subsidy ends up as additional profits in the carrier's pocket.
  - jawns 13y ago
    Exactly. If I'm going to go with a particular carrier anyway, then it's better to go with a subsidized phone, unless I get a discount for bringing my own unlocked phone. The error that nailer thinks I made, I did not make.

pavlov 13y ago

The dubious comfort in the mobile phone market is that when you're weak, there's always someone doing much worse still. While Nokia managed to sell 8.2 million Lumias last quarter, Blackberry sold only 1.1 million BB10 devices in the same timeframe. The old brands have certainly fallen quick and hard.

felickz2 13y ago

I am rather sure that having so many phones exclusive to ATT is not helping their cause. I would call that sandbagging the numbers to have 1 phone (928), 2 "Nokia Generations" of releases behind on the largest (BY FAR) smartphone provider in the USA (Verizon). Lumia 929 has been FCC approved since November, WHERE IS IT? The holy grail 1020 still exclusive to ATT, if the numbers are so disappointing put a CDMA radio in it and SELL IT!

freehunter 13y ago
If I remember correctly, Verizon doesn't particularly want Windows Phones. They sure aren't pushing very hard to get them.

chflamplighter 13y ago

Lumia 928 owner and I love my phone, for me the OS/HW is great. To me, it feels like a lot of the dissatisfaction centers around the fact that WP is an MS product. Of course there are things that could be enhanced or done better but compared with my past experience with iOS and Android, WP is tops for me. That being said, it is a beautiful thing to have choice so more power to the iOS and Android users. Get in where you fit in!

ladzoppelin 13y ago

" tluyben2 41 minutes ago | link Not too surprising; outside HN comments I have yet to find anyone actually liking these phones here (in the EU). Most people I know who have one (including me) like the hardware but not the software and they don't like the hardware enough to not get an iPhone or Android. I tried to like it but it's gathering dust only to be swept off when a client wants to order an app for it from us. After that it goes into the drawer again." Nokia 928 is an amazing phone and Windows 8 phone is really smooth. An article on HN yesterday talked about the rise of these phones in specific markets one them being Europe. Most people I know that actually own one really like it and think its much better than Android. Obviously the previous comment is just an opinion and not fact.

notdrunkatall 13y ago

I bought a Lumia 620 for $70 on Amazon and hooked it up through Straight Talk on their $45/unlimited plan, and frankly, it's pretty great. The O/S is fluid and pretty, the phone works fine, the battery life's really good, it does everything I need to. Really, I have no complaints.

pmelendez 13y ago

I am a bit confused by this, the author actually edited the numbers ( "Nokia has confirmed it sold 8.2 million Lumias in Q4" ) which is the double of 2012. How is that "disappointing"?

adrianlmm 13y ago
Is not a surprise, the Osnews editor is well know for being anti-Nokia since their aliance with MS, so spect more from him.

AnotherDesigner 13y ago

I like the design language Microsoft came up with for Windows Phone. So I bought a Nokia Lumia phone. I quickly regretted it. This was before Windows Phone 8 was released but we were promised "many of the features" with Windows Phone 7.8. I waited, and waited, and waited. Eventually I was told that they had changed their minds and Windows Phone 7.8 wouldn't even be coming to my particular phone. Windows Phone 7 is missing a lot of very basic features. It's time consuming and frustrating using it even for the most basic tasks. The web browser is terrible. It lacks most popular 3rd-party services and apps. And the camera seems to be programmed to take out-of-focus photos. I will never buy another Nokia phone, or Windows Phone, again. They had their chance.