9 ms·

You are NEVER forced to steal bread. Don't want to participate in gathering seeds and wild fruits for free legally and choosing to steal bread, not ok, ever. I

You are NEVER forced to steal bread. Don't want to participate in gathering seeds and wild fruits for free legally and choosing to steal bread, not ok, ever. I guess "essential" has many definitions, huh...

untog 13y ago
Come on, they're not in any way comparable.
- jellicle 13y ago
  The UN declaration of human rights includes one sentence talking about the right to food, and many paragraphs talking about the right to participate in culture, community, communicate, and so on. So if we judge by that, the right to participate in culture is more important than the right to food (or more likely, is simply more often challenged and disagreed with). If the whole legal regime around copyright is having the effect of preventing people from participating in their culture/society, those laws are immoral and should be opposed.
  - talmand 13y ago
    Wait, are you implying that the UN has declared that stealing the results of someone's labor is justified because it's a "right"? We might as well declare anarchy and get it over with. I also fail to see how copyright laws are preventing anyone from enjoying their culture.
    - psionski 13y ago
      It's sad times we live in when creating culture is labeled "labor", "work" and so forth... About the "stealing" part - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/lady-gaga-jack-white-norah-jones-musicians-piracy_n_1258319.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/lady-gaga-jack-whit... artists are more than happy to let anyone experience their art, it's the producers that have a problem with it. I guess this is what you get when you allow business-minded people to define what being human is all about...
      - talmand 13y ago
        Well, I was talking mostly about food. But if I use my culture as a basis for a song that I write and I wish to sell it to make money, then you're dang right I see it as stealing if someone takes it without my permission. If an artist wants to share it openly, then that's excellent. But if the artist wishes to make money from their effort why is it your "right" to demand otherwise? It's not about being business-minded, it's called having rights over your own property.
        Nursie 13y ago
        Because mostly it's not the artists who want to lock it up, and it's not the artists that stand to gain most from locking it up, it's the suits.
        talmand 13y ago
        Ok, how is that any different? An artist who works alone deserves your money but an artist who agrees to work with a third-party does not? Because the third-party might get a piece of the pie dictated by the contract the artist agreed to? That's an extremely weak defense of not paying for content. Are book stores okay? Because I'm sure they make money from the books they sell that they didn't personally write. Well, that's not an exact comparison but I hope you get my point. I have to say, I am astounded at the level of entitlement people seem to have when it comes to consuming content others worked to create. I want it, therefore it should be mine is the mantra of this type of thinking.
      - jonhendry 13y ago
        "It's sad times we live in when creating culture is labeled "labor", "work" and so forth." It's sad when idle consumers come to believe they are entitled to the product of another's labor for free.
        smaudet 13y ago
        Its sad when idle business men think its labor in the first place. That'll be 5 bucks, you read my comment. Pony up.
    - sp332 13y ago
      You don't think Mickey Mouse and other Disney properties are part of our culture? Copyright on those works would have expired ages ago, if the laws were enforced as they were written at the time. Disney continues to prevent people from participating in that part of our culture.
      - talmand 13y ago
        How do they prevent you from participating? Do they stop you at the doors of Disney World? Can you not watch Disney movies whenever you go to the theater? Oh, that's right, you just want it for free. Although, I agree with you on the copyright laws, they shouldn't be extended like they have been. But that's an issue to complain to the people who write the laws, not the content providers who take advantage of them.
        smaudet 13y ago
        Also its sad that people think that 'participate' means 'watch'. Go get off of your lazy @ss and MAKE something, you DRM troll you :P Another point for anti-DRM - DRM inhibits cultural improvement.
        chii 13y ago
        > But that's an issue to complain to the people who write the laws, not the content providers who take advantage of them. that works when the law makers are ethical and neutral. When the "content providers" get in bed with law makers to create laws favourable to themselves, then what? I want to participate in culture by creating a derivative work based on the disney micky mouse figure. But i m disallowed, because of the said laws, unless i paid disney some amount of money. Do you think disney deserves this money?
        talmand 13y ago
        According to the law, yes. They absolutely deserve that money because that's what the law says. You can't choose to ignore a law because it's inconvenient for you. If you choose to ignore a law for your own benefit then that allows others to do the same for your potential detriment. That's extremely bad short-term thinking. Your complaint is with the law, it has nothing to do with the content providers. You say but the content providers influence the law with money. In that case your complaint is with the system that writes the law. Your ire is misdirected and likely will cause nothing to change. Of course, there's civil disobedience to consider. It would be an interesting way to combat the laws at hand but I'm not sure how to go about that in terms of media consumption. I suppose if enough people did it at the same time. But you fall into the common problems with these type of discussion; you act as if your choices are limited. For instance, with piracy it's usually "they don't make it easy and/or cheap enough for me to buy so therefore I must steal it" which is a self-limiting range of options. It totally ignores several options such as simply not consuming the content in question and move on to something else. You present only one option in your desire to create, a derivative work based off of another's content. That's not your only option in this case. Finally, this idea that this stuff is a part of our culture and we're locked out of it. I would say if we're locked out of it so tightly that we can't enjoy it then I wouldn't call it part of our culture. But this culture defense is new to me in these terms, it's an interesting idea. It will ultimately fail in the end but an interesting defense nonetheless.
    - frenchy 13y ago
      > stealing You keep using that word without realizing that the rest of us may have already moved on to a different concept of ownership.
      - talmand 13y ago
        By the rest of us I'm guessing a small number of people who have high ideals outside of reality? Your definition almost literally means no one has ownership over anything when it is your "right" to take it as you please. How shall we define the act of taking property without due compensation that the owner of said property expects?
        nbouscal 13y ago
        You seem to be acting intentionally dense. Surely you understand that the difference being discussed here pertains specifically to duplicable content, where the property involved is "intellectual property" and much more open to alternative interpretations than things like land or food.
        talmand 13y ago
        No, I'm not dense, I see property as property. You act as if I don't know what's going on technology wise. But I do know and understand, it's not a difficult situation to comprehend. Implying I'm dense or any other derogatory term is just an attempt to dismiss me without having to actually consider what I'm saying. You shouldn't do that because that's typically the defense of someone who has little to back up their side of the debate. You simply want to redefine things so you can apply your alternative interpretation of ownership in a way that allows you to obtain someone's property without compensating them for it. You feel entitled to someone's work because it's easy to duplicate it. It could take an artist weeks or months to create their work and you feel they deserve nothing because you can copy it in seconds. That's a sad justification. Whether the fact it can be easily duplicated is irrelevant. Someone created that work with their time that they can't get back. They spent a moment of their life away from other things creating this that they can't get back. They spent resources (not necessarily money) creating this that they can't get back. None of that can be duplicated in seconds. If they wish to be paid for granting you access to that work then they should be compensated as they wish. If you don't agree with the price of admission then you don't get access. Thinking otherwise is admitting you feel you are entitled to it because you simply want it and the original creator can suck it. You are saying the creator's time and effort is worth nothing. I simply cannot agree with that way of thinking.
  - jscheel 13y ago
    Have you even read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Articles 23 and 25 are not supplanted by Article 27. In fact, Article 30 specifically states that you cannot interpret the UDHR in any way that would allow you to remove rights set forth in previous the articles. And, as surprising as this may sound, the UDHR doesn't specify order of importance based on word count.
talmand 13y ago
If those seeds or fruit happen to be on land that someone owns then you are stealing those as well.

untog 13y ago

Come on, they're not in any way comparable.

jellicle 13y ago
The UN declaration of human rights includes one sentence talking about the right to food, and many paragraphs talking about the right to participate in culture, community, communicate, and so on. So if we judge by that, the right to participate in culture is more important than the right to food (or more likely, is simply more often challenged and disagreed with). If the whole legal regime around copyright is having the effect of preventing people from participating in their culture/society, those laws are immoral and should be opposed.
- talmand 13y ago
  Wait, are you implying that the UN has declared that stealing the results of someone's labor is justified because it's a "right"? We might as well declare anarchy and get it over with. I also fail to see how copyright laws are preventing anyone from enjoying their culture.
  - psionski 13y ago
    It's sad times we live in when creating culture is labeled "labor", "work" and so forth... About the "stealing" part - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/lady-gaga-jack-white-norah-jones-musicians-piracy_n_1258319.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/lady-gaga-jack-whit... artists are more than happy to let anyone experience their art, it's the producers that have a problem with it. I guess this is what you get when you allow business-minded people to define what being human is all about...
    - talmand 13y ago
      Well, I was talking mostly about food. But if I use my culture as a basis for a song that I write and I wish to sell it to make money, then you're dang right I see it as stealing if someone takes it without my permission. If an artist wants to share it openly, then that's excellent. But if the artist wishes to make money from their effort why is it your "right" to demand otherwise? It's not about being business-minded, it's called having rights over your own property.
      - Nursie 13y ago
        Because mostly it's not the artists who want to lock it up, and it's not the artists that stand to gain most from locking it up, it's the suits.
        talmand 13y ago
        Ok, how is that any different? An artist who works alone deserves your money but an artist who agrees to work with a third-party does not? Because the third-party might get a piece of the pie dictated by the contract the artist agreed to? That's an extremely weak defense of not paying for content. Are book stores okay? Because I'm sure they make money from the books they sell that they didn't personally write. Well, that's not an exact comparison but I hope you get my point. I have to say, I am astounded at the level of entitlement people seem to have when it comes to consuming content others worked to create. I want it, therefore it should be mine is the mantra of this type of thinking.
    - jonhendry 13y ago
      "It's sad times we live in when creating culture is labeled "labor", "work" and so forth." It's sad when idle consumers come to believe they are entitled to the product of another's labor for free.
      - smaudet 13y ago
        Its sad when idle business men think its labor in the first place. That'll be 5 bucks, you read my comment. Pony up.
  - sp332 13y ago
    You don't think Mickey Mouse and other Disney properties are part of our culture? Copyright on those works would have expired ages ago, if the laws were enforced as they were written at the time. Disney continues to prevent people from participating in that part of our culture.
    - talmand 13y ago
      How do they prevent you from participating? Do they stop you at the doors of Disney World? Can you not watch Disney movies whenever you go to the theater? Oh, that's right, you just want it for free. Although, I agree with you on the copyright laws, they shouldn't be extended like they have been. But that's an issue to complain to the people who write the laws, not the content providers who take advantage of them.
      - smaudet 13y ago
        Also its sad that people think that 'participate' means 'watch'. Go get off of your lazy @ss and MAKE something, you DRM troll you :P Another point for anti-DRM - DRM inhibits cultural improvement.
      - chii 13y ago
        > But that's an issue to complain to the people who write the laws, not the content providers who take advantage of them. that works when the law makers are ethical and neutral. When the "content providers" get in bed with law makers to create laws favourable to themselves, then what? I want to participate in culture by creating a derivative work based on the disney micky mouse figure. But i m disallowed, because of the said laws, unless i paid disney some amount of money. Do you think disney deserves this money?
        talmand 13y ago
        According to the law, yes. They absolutely deserve that money because that's what the law says. You can't choose to ignore a law because it's inconvenient for you. If you choose to ignore a law for your own benefit then that allows others to do the same for your potential detriment. That's extremely bad short-term thinking. Your complaint is with the law, it has nothing to do with the content providers. You say but the content providers influence the law with money. In that case your complaint is with the system that writes the law. Your ire is misdirected and likely will cause nothing to change. Of course, there's civil disobedience to consider. It would be an interesting way to combat the laws at hand but I'm not sure how to go about that in terms of media consumption. I suppose if enough people did it at the same time. But you fall into the common problems with these type of discussion; you act as if your choices are limited. For instance, with piracy it's usually "they don't make it easy and/or cheap enough for me to buy so therefore I must steal it" which is a self-limiting range of options. It totally ignores several options such as simply not consuming the content in question and move on to something else. You present only one option in your desire to create, a derivative work based off of another's content. That's not your only option in this case. Finally, this idea that this stuff is a part of our culture and we're locked out of it. I would say if we're locked out of it so tightly that we can't enjoy it then I wouldn't call it part of our culture. But this culture defense is new to me in these terms, it's an interesting idea. It will ultimately fail in the end but an interesting defense nonetheless.
  - frenchy 13y ago
    > stealing You keep using that word without realizing that the rest of us may have already moved on to a different concept of ownership.
    - talmand 13y ago
      By the rest of us I'm guessing a small number of people who have high ideals outside of reality? Your definition almost literally means no one has ownership over anything when it is your "right" to take it as you please. How shall we define the act of taking property without due compensation that the owner of said property expects?
      - nbouscal 13y ago
        You seem to be acting intentionally dense. Surely you understand that the difference being discussed here pertains specifically to duplicable content, where the property involved is "intellectual property" and much more open to alternative interpretations than things like land or food.
        talmand 13y ago
        No, I'm not dense, I see property as property. You act as if I don't know what's going on technology wise. But I do know and understand, it's not a difficult situation to comprehend. Implying I'm dense or any other derogatory term is just an attempt to dismiss me without having to actually consider what I'm saying. You shouldn't do that because that's typically the defense of someone who has little to back up their side of the debate. You simply want to redefine things so you can apply your alternative interpretation of ownership in a way that allows you to obtain someone's property without compensating them for it. You feel entitled to someone's work because it's easy to duplicate it. It could take an artist weeks or months to create their work and you feel they deserve nothing because you can copy it in seconds. That's a sad justification. Whether the fact it can be easily duplicated is irrelevant. Someone created that work with their time that they can't get back. They spent a moment of their life away from other things creating this that they can't get back. They spent resources (not necessarily money) creating this that they can't get back. None of that can be duplicated in seconds. If they wish to be paid for granting you access to that work then they should be compensated as they wish. If you don't agree with the price of admission then you don't get access. Thinking otherwise is admitting you feel you are entitled to it because you simply want it and the original creator can suck it. You are saying the creator's time and effort is worth nothing. I simply cannot agree with that way of thinking.
- jscheel 13y ago
  Have you even read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Articles 23 and 25 are not supplanted by Article 27. In fact, Article 30 specifically states that you cannot interpret the UDHR in any way that would allow you to remove rights set forth in previous the articles. And, as surprising as this may sound, the UDHR doesn't specify order of importance based on word count.

talmand 13y ago

If those seeds or fruit happen to be on land that someone owns then you are stealing those as well.