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> Stop treating everything like its holy ground, and learn to laugh at a joke, whether or not it targets your minority or majority class. The main reason peopl

> Stop treating everything like its holy ground, and learn to laugh at a joke, whether or not it targets your minority or majority class. The main reason people get upset about transphobic jokes isn't that they don't have a sense of humor. It's because trans people are disproportionately targeted by violence because of their orientation. People get beat up, people get killed. This is pretty serious, and a lot of people think part of the problem is a cultural sense that demeaning trans people is ok. You can call them "it", or a "thing". These people aren't going to be mad if you make a joke around your trans friends. But they see it as a problem when a whole generation of 12-13 year olds are being culturally conditioned to treat trans people as lesser, as an other, etc. Not to mention the effect this culture has on young trans kids. They already have a much much higher risk of suicide than the average person. Change has to start somewhere.

aaronem 13y ago
Having grown up as a gay teenager in the 90s, I don't really remember having had my bones broken by any jokes people made about me. I did get my ass kicked pretty good a few times, but in those cases, it wasn't words doing the damage. Conflating jokes with beatings, and assuming that incidence of one has an effect on incidence of the other, does no good for anyone subject to either -- I also don't remember, in any of the cases where people beat the shit out of me, wishing someone would step in to stop them making jokes about me. I'm also curious: What about kids who get beat up, not because they're gay or trans or what-have-you, but just because they're nerds? I was one of those, too, as it happens, and that bought me more beatings than being gay ever did. Those beatings are of less concern, in the realm of social justice, than the ones I got for being gay. Why? Certainly the latter didn't hurt worse than the former, nor did it particularly matter to me which was which. Based on that experience, it seems to me less reasonable to consider that the reasons behind any given beating are the problem, than that the beatings are the problem; worrying specifically about gay kids getting beaten, or trans kids getting beaten, or what-have-you, seems roughly as risible as worrying specifically about guns being used to kill people, rather than about people killing each other.
- patdennis 13y ago
  Of course violence has to be targeted and stopped, regardless of the reason. But cultural change is important. Lynchings were bad because of the violence, but just as bad was the culture that lead to such violence being sanctioned. Gay bashing is horrible, but the culture that sanctions it is also horrible. Same with trans bashing, but there has been less progress at targeting that culture. Include nerds in the targeted groups, there. Sure, maybe you don't agree that targeting the culture that sanctions violence is important, but a lot of people disagree with you there, including me.
  - aaronem 13y ago
    But you're not talking about targeting the culture that sanctions violence. You're talking about targeting the culture that sanctions violence against the protected groups of your choice. There's a substantive difference there; the latter proposition has holes in it which I'd argue are, if not dangerous, then at least compromising to the goal of reducing violence, period. I'll grant that not getting beaten up for being gay would've fetched me fewer beatings, and fewer would've been better than more. But no matter how thoroughly you manage to instill "don't beat up people because they're gay", fewer beatings is all you'll ever achieve by it. Considering that, if your movement has the power to succeed at the "don't beat up people because they're gay" social engineering project, it also has the power to succeed at the "don't beat up people, period" social engineering project, aiming for a lesser goal than you can attain seems to me a bit crass. (As it happens, I don't think your movement has the power to succeed at either project, so for me the question is academic. But you think otherwise, so, for you, I should think it'd be a matter of some import.)
    - patdennis 13y ago
      You're suggesting there are groups where I don't support targeting such a culture? Edit: Yes, I support targeting a culture of violence, period. Areas of disproportionate violence, like vulnerable minorities, need disproportionate targeting. Edit2: You admit that there's been a cultural change away from gay bashing. Doesn't that indicate that cultural change can and does work in preventing sanctioned violence against vulnerable minorities? Edit3, in response to below: I'm on Hacker News for fun. Do you really think it never occurred to me that nerds get beat up?
gavanwoolery 13y ago
I understand that everyone fights a tough battle (and I do sympathize), but I see humor as a way of bridging that gap, not widening it. Humor is very different from hatred (although a joke can be hateful, in which case its not a good joke to make) - in this case the joke was lame, but I wouldn't say it was hateful. Look at Nick Vujicic who makes jokes about his missing limbs. He has it harder than anyone, but that does not stop him from finding happiness and humor in life. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzsjEmjjHs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzsjEmjjHs Change starts with acceptance, not censorship. If we all hush-hush when it comes to make a joke about a group, they are not comfortably integrated. In order to be an equal, they must be treated as equals, in every respect. I do think things are actually getting better overall for other orientations (I mean, look at what they did to Turing back in the day).

aaronem 13y ago

Having grown up as a gay teenager in the 90s, I don't really remember having had my bones broken by any jokes people made about me. I did get my ass kicked pretty good a few times, but in those cases, it wasn't words doing the damage. Conflating jokes with beatings, and assuming that incidence of one has an effect on incidence of the other, does no good for anyone subject to either -- I also don't remember, in any of the cases where people beat the shit out of me, wishing someone would step in to stop them making jokes about me. I'm also curious: What about kids who get beat up, not because they're gay or trans or what-have-you, but just because they're nerds? I was one of those, too, as it happens, and that bought me more beatings than being gay ever did. Those beatings are of less concern, in the realm of social justice, than the ones I got for being gay. Why? Certainly the latter didn't hurt worse than the former, nor did it particularly matter to me which was which. Based on that experience, it seems to me less reasonable to consider that the reasons behind any given beating are the problem, than that the beatings are the problem; worrying specifically about gay kids getting beaten, or trans kids getting beaten, or what-have-you, seems roughly as risible as worrying specifically about guns being used to kill people, rather than about people killing each other.

patdennis 13y ago
Of course violence has to be targeted and stopped, regardless of the reason. But cultural change is important. Lynchings were bad because of the violence, but just as bad was the culture that lead to such violence being sanctioned. Gay bashing is horrible, but the culture that sanctions it is also horrible. Same with trans bashing, but there has been less progress at targeting that culture. Include nerds in the targeted groups, there. Sure, maybe you don't agree that targeting the culture that sanctions violence is important, but a lot of people disagree with you there, including me.
- aaronem 13y ago
  But you're not talking about targeting the culture that sanctions violence. You're talking about targeting the culture that sanctions violence against the protected groups of your choice. There's a substantive difference there; the latter proposition has holes in it which I'd argue are, if not dangerous, then at least compromising to the goal of reducing violence, period. I'll grant that not getting beaten up for being gay would've fetched me fewer beatings, and fewer would've been better than more. But no matter how thoroughly you manage to instill "don't beat up people because they're gay", fewer beatings is all you'll ever achieve by it. Considering that, if your movement has the power to succeed at the "don't beat up people because they're gay" social engineering project, it also has the power to succeed at the "don't beat up people, period" social engineering project, aiming for a lesser goal than you can attain seems to me a bit crass. (As it happens, I don't think your movement has the power to succeed at either project, so for me the question is academic. But you think otherwise, so, for you, I should think it'd be a matter of some import.)
  - patdennis 13y ago
    You're suggesting there are groups where I don't support targeting such a culture? Edit: Yes, I support targeting a culture of violence, period. Areas of disproportionate violence, like vulnerable minorities, need disproportionate targeting. Edit2: You admit that there's been a cultural change away from gay bashing. Doesn't that indicate that cultural change can and does work in preventing sanctioned violence against vulnerable minorities? Edit3, in response to below: I'm on Hacker News for fun. Do you really think it never occurred to me that nerds get beat up?

gavanwoolery 13y ago

I understand that everyone fights a tough battle (and I do sympathize), but I see humor as a way of bridging that gap, not widening it. Humor is very different from hatred (although a joke can be hateful, in which case its not a good joke to make) - in this case the joke was lame, but I wouldn't say it was hateful. Look at Nick Vujicic who makes jokes about his missing limbs. He has it harder than anyone, but that does not stop him from finding happiness and humor in life. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzsjEmjjHs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzsjEmjjHs Change starts with acceptance, not censorship. If we all hush-hush when it comes to make a joke about a group, they are not comfortably integrated. In order to be an equal, they must be treated as equals, in every respect. I do think things are actually getting better overall for other orientations (I mean, look at what they did to Turing back in the day).