6 ms·

NSA speaks out on Snowden, spying [video]

75 points by sur 13y ago

rurban 13y ago
Again he is spinning/lying about the word "collecting". Their interpretation of collection is still collecting + looking at it, while the rest of world still interprets collection as collection.
- salient 13y ago
  Yes, they keep saying that as if all the collected data wasn't already "looked at" through keyword alerts or similar systems, or that they wouldn't give themselves permission to look manually at someone's data anyway. Also last I checked, the 4th Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches (I would think searching/fishing for elements in the data through autonomous systems, is still called "searching", no?) and seizures (i.e. collections).
  - mpyne 13y ago
    4th Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches of persons, houses, papers, and effects. It has never prohibited the government from doing other searches, otherwise government agencies would not be able to subpoena business records about you from third parties. Sometimes Congress passes separate laws adding a specific requirement to obtain a warrant before doing a certain type of search, and the Supreme Court has also acted to expand 4th Amendment protections to include 'reasonable expectation of privacy' (concerning a phone booth conversation in an otherwise public place) but even in that case the Supreme Court specifically abrogated the concept of a general "right to privacy".
    - george88b 13y ago
      Wouldn't an average, reasonable person in today's age consider an email or digital file to be a modern version of a "paper" or a cell phone to be a modern "effect"?
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Well that already is that the case, but that would only prevent the government from searching the cell phone or computer itself (which is why you don't hear of NSA hacking into Americans' computers), not from intercepting communications made by the cell phone or computer once it leaves the home.
        anaphor 13y ago
        Can the NSA open everyone's mail, make a copy of it, and put the original letters back without that being "collection" of the letters?
        mpyne 13y ago
        Well it would be the USPS, not the NSA, and the USPS does indeed scan today every single mail item they process for "metadata" about the contents of the envelope [1] (note how the linked article reinforces my point about Fourth Amendment protection). Either way if the failure of the Fourth Amendment to be protective enough is that bad then the solution is either to pass a law adding the needed protection (what Congress did for landline wiretaps) or to wait for an activist judge to quote James Madison in a ruling that expands the permit of the Fourth Amendment (e.g. the ruling today). But simply wishing that the Fourth Amendment says something other than what it does, doesn't turn the Fourth Amendment into what you wish. [1] http://gizmodo.com/5994922/how-the-post-office-sniffs-out-anthrax-before-it-hits-your-mailbox http://gizmodo.com/5994922/how-the-post-office-sniffs-out-an...
testaccount4 13y ago
test comment please ignore
- samstave 13y ago
  Congrats, your sockouppet account is now active.
olefoo 13y ago
The fact that Clapper is still in office months after it was revealed that he had in point of fact lied to congress during sworn testimony should tell you everything you need to know. The surveillance machinery formerly known as Total Information Awareness is being built and fielded with or without the consent of the governed and most definitely without the consent of those of us who don't happen to be "US Persons". The only solution is for you to demand your correspondents use strong encryption and for all of us to help the less technically adept to reach the point where that is not an obstacle.
- rrich 13y ago
  For me, this is probably the most worrisome evidence of the current state of the government. I know FDR said there is nothing to fear but fear itself, but I fear nothing more than the wizard of oz, and I fear the wizard and NSA are one and the same. Back to programming this stuff scares the crap out of me.
  - e12e 13y ago
    To further fan the embers of your fear, please enjoy: [edit: title of link "Logo of New NRO Spy Satellite: An Octopus Engulfing the World with the Words “Nothing is Beyond Our Reach” Underneath"] http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/new-u-s-spy-satellite-logo-octopus-engulfing-world-words-nothing-beyond-reach-underneath/ http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/new-u-s-spy-satellite-... and: ["Top 10 Most Sinister PSYOPS Mission Patches"] http://vigilantcitizen.com/vigilantreport/top-10-most-sinister-psyops-mission-patches/ http://vigilantcitizen.com/vigilantreport/top-10-most-sinist... I find it interesting (and sad) how the last few months have shifted my perspective on Bruce Sterling's "Zenith Angle" from leaning more towards satire, to leaning more towards hard sci-fi/telling the "truth" with fiction.
    - pekk 13y ago
      The thread about that patch discussed how typical it is to have crazy over-the-top patches, it's not new at all
jcc80 13y ago
Like how they start off right away saying Snowden cheated on the test to get hired and then discuss his "weird" habits. Seems the same as most high profile interviews - the interviewer is so thrilled to get an exclusive they just gobble up whatever they're told.
foxhop 13y ago
It irritates me when they use the term "taken" or "lost" when referring to the data that was leaked or copied. The verb taken works best for physical document. Lost would mean that the physical document was taken or stolen and is not replaceable.
- viraptor 13y ago
  That battle was already lost once regarding piracy. According to the media it's not copyright infringement, copying, or duplication. It's stealing the movie. This allows pseudo-advertisements like "you wouldn't steal a car" to exist. (I would definitely copy a car is I could!)
tmuir 13y ago
This was public relations, plain and simple. Paint Snowden like a weirdo, ask softball question after softball question, give vague hints about the scary threats that deem this all necessary, and blindly trust the answers of the guy in charge of the entire operation, as if he had no incentive whatsoever to mislead anyone. Then wrap it all up with "Just how did we get this access that no other news agency could?" Gee, maybe it has something to do your extensive track record of reporting any story without even a shred of investigation into it's veracity.
- rrich 13y ago
  Yes. Put them in front of a group of young college students that have had time to hone their critical thinking skills, instead of government media shills, and you will get a very different perspective.
  - AlwaysBCoding 13y ago
    If you haven't seen this yet, it's absolute gold. The NSA getting grilled at a UWisconsin recruiting session. http://mobandmultitude.com/2013/07/02/the-nsa-comes-recruiting/ http://mobandmultitude.com/2013/07/02/the-nsa-comes-recruiti...
- proofofconcept 13y ago
  At the very least, it's encouraging that the NSA feels the need to do keep up this sort of damage control because it suggests that people in the agency feel its public image continues to be damaged (or at least threatened) by the leaks. I doubt they would be actively trying to massage public opinion like this if the story had died by now, or if only a negligible portion of the public cared.
- tinalumfoil 13y ago
  If you look at the "behind the scenes" stuff you see they avoided all the tough questions. It was less about the NSA's justifications for their actions as much as how the NSA and people feel about the situation.
- GhotiFish 13y ago
michaelrhansen 13y ago
we don't collect phone things
salient 13y ago
I'll leave this here: http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/15/5214452/60-minutes-softball-NSA-expose http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/15/5214452/60-minutes-softba...
dephex 13y ago
"He was taking a technical examination for potential employment at NSA; he used his system administrator privileges to go into the account of the NSA employee who was administering that test, and he took both questions and the answers, and used them to pass the test." WHAT? He was a potential employee at the NSA but was already a system administrator, guys. That's the only reason this all happened - because he's a liar, cheater and thief! Down with Snowden!
- doug11235 13y ago
  Government contractors are not considered government employees.
wikiburner 13y ago
Does anyone have any good links to information on the "BIOS" attack the NSA claims to have thwarted? To hear the head of the NSA tell it, China was seriously getting ready to launch WWIII on the Internet, which I find pretty surprising.
teawithcarl 13y ago
Last week, a PR slot for Amazon on 60 minutes. This week, NSA public relations decide to put its best spin on ... thanks, CBS.
ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
Quick Question about encrypted email: For extremely sensitive data, rather than mess with PGP for Thunderbird and private and public keys. Can't you just email a TrueCrypt container with a hidden TrueCrypt container inside of it back and forth between your clients?
- jgg 13y ago
  You'd have to find a way to negotiate the volume password electronically if you didn't do it in person, which in turn would basically just be asymmetric crypto, which would probably lead you to PGP.
harshreality 13y ago
Here we go again with the false dichotomy of metadata vs data. There Is No Difference. Collecting metadata enables you to infer some data, psychology, and behavior directly, or you can identify the individual and cross-reference with other databases that contain data.
freyr 13y ago
Right on the heels of Saturday Night Live skewering 60 Minutes for softball interviews: http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/rob-ford-cold-open/n43342/ http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/rob-ford-cold-o...
- downer89 13y ago
  Meh. What would you expect an NBC show to say about a CBS show? In terms of performances, it's not like they have anything to brag about. SNL is averaging less than one funny skit per year across multiple full-cast rotations. Aside from the Moderately humorous skit every once-in-a-blue-moon (such as The Insane Clown Posse parody for their Miracles video), SNL has been borderline unwatchable for well over a decade.
Bahamut 13y ago
FWIW, some of the revelations in the NSA video isn't particularly new - you can get a sense of how the NSA operates by visiting Palantir's website (they create custom software for agencies like the NSA). I highly suspect that the video reveals that software in action for forming links with phone metadata. Contrary to a lot of what has been said on HN, a lot of what the NSA does is good for the US. It would appear Gen. Alexander sidestepped talking about some of the questionable behavior that has occurred, but on the whole, the NSA operates with the right mindset. Anything on foreign grounds are free reign for any country to operate in, and it has always been that way in the broader intelligence community. The US has just been especially good at it. Computing power & ability are getting ever more daunting. The knowledge about the fragility of computers are getting ever more accessible. What would a lot of you do about thwarting cyberthreats of varying natures to the US, were you in the position to have to protect such a powerful entity? Would you leave the US vulnerable if it meant erring strictly on privacy, which still has the potential to be prone to mistakes? Metadata in itself is a powerful intelligence tool. Should the intelligence agencies never have access to it? Under what conditions should it be available? What would you do in the event that time is of the essence, and bureaucracy ends up preventing you from accessing the vital information you needed to stop a terrorist plot? It is hard for people to know about what successes intelligence agencies may have - it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, since the information often needs to remain classified for foreign relations, but if you fail to save lives, you are then blamed for failing your country, as the intelligence agencies were for 9/11 due to inadequate data sharing & exactly the type of bureaucracy that was later decreased. I have some insight as to how the NSA operates, based on prospective employers reaching out to me for interviews, including workgroups in companies who contract directly with the NSA and the NSA itself (I was approached for a role as a mathematician as soon as their hiring freeze was over, my specialty was number theory, including analytic & algebraic number theory, precisely the NSA's domain) - those intelligent and who have interviewed in this field should be able to extrapolate generally how the NSA likely operates without having worked there. I respect the mission, and personally don't have a huge problem with how the NSA operates. I wouldn't work for them ever anymore though, I picked a different career. One thing I think people on HN should do though is think critically about this though, and not automatically go into scared-mode/hive-mode due to the amount of data involved. Think it through logically, as you would with any other problem. I think most of you would understand that this is a far more complex issue than many here have made it out to be. One may still potentially arrive at the same conclusion that the NSA overstepped their bounds on a high moral level, but you will gain more of an appreciation for the high moral level that the NSA attempts to operate in generally, which should be a surprise if you haven't thought about this prior to this incident given the world history of espionage and intelligence.
siculars 13y ago
What a puff piece if ever there was one. I'm actually concerned that 60 Minutes would actually air such obviously pro NSA propaganda especially after their Bengazi disaster. How anyone can take this seriously is beyond me. And the fact that Alexander could blatantly lie to the world on national television is outrageous.
tn13 13y ago
LOL. NSA is spying on all H1B employees, foreign students and rest of the world. If they have that capability I am not sure how exactly they would filter out US persons. Secondly, these people have the history of lying to Congress itself. I am not sure if they give any shit about media and general public. As a non-american one thing is absolutely clear to me. Given two equal services always choose a non-american one.

75 points by sur 13y ago

Again he is spinning/lying about the word "collecting". Their interpretation of collection is still collecting + looking at it, while the rest of world still interprets collection as collection.

salient 13y ago
Yes, they keep saying that as if all the collected data wasn't already "looked at" through keyword alerts or similar systems, or that they wouldn't give themselves permission to look manually at someone's data anyway. Also last I checked, the 4th Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches (I would think searching/fishing for elements in the data through autonomous systems, is still called "searching", no?) and seizures (i.e. collections).
- mpyne 13y ago
  4th Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches of persons, houses, papers, and effects. It has never prohibited the government from doing other searches, otherwise government agencies would not be able to subpoena business records about you from third parties. Sometimes Congress passes separate laws adding a specific requirement to obtain a warrant before doing a certain type of search, and the Supreme Court has also acted to expand 4th Amendment protections to include 'reasonable expectation of privacy' (concerning a phone booth conversation in an otherwise public place) but even in that case the Supreme Court specifically abrogated the concept of a general "right to privacy".
  - george88b 13y ago
    Wouldn't an average, reasonable person in today's age consider an email or digital file to be a modern version of a "paper" or a cell phone to be a modern "effect"?
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Well that already is that the case, but that would only prevent the government from searching the cell phone or computer itself (which is why you don't hear of NSA hacking into Americans' computers), not from intercepting communications made by the cell phone or computer once it leaves the home.
      - anaphor 13y ago
        Can the NSA open everyone's mail, make a copy of it, and put the original letters back without that being "collection" of the letters?
        mpyne 13y ago
        Well it would be the USPS, not the NSA, and the USPS does indeed scan today every single mail item they process for "metadata" about the contents of the envelope [1] (note how the linked article reinforces my point about Fourth Amendment protection). Either way if the failure of the Fourth Amendment to be protective enough is that bad then the solution is either to pass a law adding the needed protection (what Congress did for landline wiretaps) or to wait for an activist judge to quote James Madison in a ruling that expands the permit of the Fourth Amendment (e.g. the ruling today). But simply wishing that the Fourth Amendment says something other than what it does, doesn't turn the Fourth Amendment into what you wish. [1] http://gizmodo.com/5994922/how-the-post-office-sniffs-out-anthrax-before-it-hits-your-mailbox http://gizmodo.com/5994922/how-the-post-office-sniffs-out-an...

testaccount4 13y ago

test comment please ignore

samstave 13y ago
Congrats, your sockouppet account is now active.

olefoo 13y ago

The fact that Clapper is still in office months after it was revealed that he had in point of fact lied to congress during sworn testimony should tell you everything you need to know. The surveillance machinery formerly known as Total Information Awareness is being built and fielded with or without the consent of the governed and most definitely without the consent of those of us who don't happen to be "US Persons". The only solution is for you to demand your correspondents use strong encryption and for all of us to help the less technically adept to reach the point where that is not an obstacle.

rrich 13y ago
For me, this is probably the most worrisome evidence of the current state of the government. I know FDR said there is nothing to fear but fear itself, but I fear nothing more than the wizard of oz, and I fear the wizard and NSA are one and the same. Back to programming this stuff scares the crap out of me.
- e12e 13y ago
  To further fan the embers of your fear, please enjoy: [edit: title of link "Logo of New NRO Spy Satellite: An Octopus Engulfing the World with the Words “Nothing is Beyond Our Reach” Underneath"] http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/new-u-s-spy-satellite-logo-octopus-engulfing-world-words-nothing-beyond-reach-underneath/ http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/new-u-s-spy-satellite-... and: ["Top 10 Most Sinister PSYOPS Mission Patches"] http://vigilantcitizen.com/vigilantreport/top-10-most-sinister-psyops-mission-patches/ http://vigilantcitizen.com/vigilantreport/top-10-most-sinist... I find it interesting (and sad) how the last few months have shifted my perspective on Bruce Sterling's "Zenith Angle" from leaning more towards satire, to leaning more towards hard sci-fi/telling the "truth" with fiction.
  - pekk 13y ago
    The thread about that patch discussed how typical it is to have crazy over-the-top patches, it's not new at all

jcc80 13y ago

Like how they start off right away saying Snowden cheated on the test to get hired and then discuss his "weird" habits. Seems the same as most high profile interviews - the interviewer is so thrilled to get an exclusive they just gobble up whatever they're told.

foxhop 13y ago

It irritates me when they use the term "taken" or "lost" when referring to the data that was leaked or copied. The verb taken works best for physical document. Lost would mean that the physical document was taken or stolen and is not replaceable.

viraptor 13y ago
That battle was already lost once regarding piracy. According to the media it's not copyright infringement, copying, or duplication. It's stealing the movie. This allows pseudo-advertisements like "you wouldn't steal a car" to exist. (I would definitely copy a car is I could!)

tmuir 13y ago

This was public relations, plain and simple. Paint Snowden like a weirdo, ask softball question after softball question, give vague hints about the scary threats that deem this all necessary, and blindly trust the answers of the guy in charge of the entire operation, as if he had no incentive whatsoever to mislead anyone. Then wrap it all up with "Just how did we get this access that no other news agency could?" Gee, maybe it has something to do your extensive track record of reporting any story without even a shred of investigation into it's veracity.

rrich 13y ago
Yes. Put them in front of a group of young college students that have had time to hone their critical thinking skills, instead of government media shills, and you will get a very different perspective.
- AlwaysBCoding 13y ago
  If you haven't seen this yet, it's absolute gold. The NSA getting grilled at a UWisconsin recruiting session. http://mobandmultitude.com/2013/07/02/the-nsa-comes-recruiting/ http://mobandmultitude.com/2013/07/02/the-nsa-comes-recruiti...
proofofconcept 13y ago
At the very least, it's encouraging that the NSA feels the need to do keep up this sort of damage control because it suggests that people in the agency feel its public image continues to be damaged (or at least threatened) by the leaks. I doubt they would be actively trying to massage public opinion like this if the story had died by now, or if only a negligible portion of the public cared.
tinalumfoil 13y ago
If you look at the "behind the scenes" stuff you see they avoided all the tough questions. It was less about the NSA's justifications for their actions as much as how the NSA and people feel about the situation.
GhotiFish 13y ago

michaelrhansen 13y ago

we don't collect phone things

salient 13y ago

I'll leave this here: http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/15/5214452/60-minutes-softball-NSA-expose http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/15/5214452/60-minutes-softba...

dephex 13y ago

"He was taking a technical examination for potential employment at NSA; he used his system administrator privileges to go into the account of the NSA employee who was administering that test, and he took both questions and the answers, and used them to pass the test." WHAT? He was a potential employee at the NSA but was already a system administrator, guys. That's the only reason this all happened - because he's a liar, cheater and thief! Down with Snowden!

doug11235 13y ago
Government contractors are not considered government employees.

wikiburner 13y ago

Does anyone have any good links to information on the "BIOS" attack the NSA claims to have thwarted? To hear the head of the NSA tell it, China was seriously getting ready to launch WWIII on the Internet, which I find pretty surprising.

teawithcarl 13y ago

Last week, a PR slot for Amazon on 60 minutes. This week, NSA public relations decide to put its best spin on ... thanks, CBS.

ChrisNorstrom 13y ago

Quick Question about encrypted email: For extremely sensitive data, rather than mess with PGP for Thunderbird and private and public keys. Can't you just email a TrueCrypt container with a hidden TrueCrypt container inside of it back and forth between your clients?

jgg 13y ago
You'd have to find a way to negotiate the volume password electronically if you didn't do it in person, which in turn would basically just be asymmetric crypto, which would probably lead you to PGP.

harshreality 13y ago

Here we go again with the false dichotomy of metadata vs data. There Is No Difference. Collecting metadata enables you to infer some data, psychology, and behavior directly, or you can identify the individual and cross-reference with other databases that contain data.

freyr 13y ago

Right on the heels of Saturday Night Live skewering 60 Minutes for softball interviews: http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/rob-ford-cold-open/n43342/ http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/rob-ford-cold-o...

downer89 13y ago
Meh. What would you expect an NBC show to say about a CBS show? In terms of performances, it's not like they have anything to brag about. SNL is averaging less than one funny skit per year across multiple full-cast rotations. Aside from the Moderately humorous skit every once-in-a-blue-moon (such as The Insane Clown Posse parody for their Miracles video), SNL has been borderline unwatchable for well over a decade.

Bahamut 13y ago

FWIW, some of the revelations in the NSA video isn't particularly new - you can get a sense of how the NSA operates by visiting Palantir's website (they create custom software for agencies like the NSA). I highly suspect that the video reveals that software in action for forming links with phone metadata. Contrary to a lot of what has been said on HN, a lot of what the NSA does is good for the US. It would appear Gen. Alexander sidestepped talking about some of the questionable behavior that has occurred, but on the whole, the NSA operates with the right mindset. Anything on foreign grounds are free reign for any country to operate in, and it has always been that way in the broader intelligence community. The US has just been especially good at it. Computing power & ability are getting ever more daunting. The knowledge about the fragility of computers are getting ever more accessible. What would a lot of you do about thwarting cyberthreats of varying natures to the US, were you in the position to have to protect such a powerful entity? Would you leave the US vulnerable if it meant erring strictly on privacy, which still has the potential to be prone to mistakes? Metadata in itself is a powerful intelligence tool. Should the intelligence agencies never have access to it? Under what conditions should it be available? What would you do in the event that time is of the essence, and bureaucracy ends up preventing you from accessing the vital information you needed to stop a terrorist plot? It is hard for people to know about what successes intelligence agencies may have - it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, since the information often needs to remain classified for foreign relations, but if you fail to save lives, you are then blamed for failing your country, as the intelligence agencies were for 9/11 due to inadequate data sharing & exactly the type of bureaucracy that was later decreased. I have some insight as to how the NSA operates, based on prospective employers reaching out to me for interviews, including workgroups in companies who contract directly with the NSA and the NSA itself (I was approached for a role as a mathematician as soon as their hiring freeze was over, my specialty was number theory, including analytic & algebraic number theory, precisely the NSA's domain) - those intelligent and who have interviewed in this field should be able to extrapolate generally how the NSA likely operates without having worked there. I respect the mission, and personally don't have a huge problem with how the NSA operates. I wouldn't work for them ever anymore though, I picked a different career. One thing I think people on HN should do though is think critically about this though, and not automatically go into scared-mode/hive-mode due to the amount of data involved. Think it through logically, as you would with any other problem. I think most of you would understand that this is a far more complex issue than many here have made it out to be. One may still potentially arrive at the same conclusion that the NSA overstepped their bounds on a high moral level, but you will gain more of an appreciation for the high moral level that the NSA attempts to operate in generally, which should be a surprise if you haven't thought about this prior to this incident given the world history of espionage and intelligence.

siculars 13y ago

What a puff piece if ever there was one. I'm actually concerned that 60 Minutes would actually air such obviously pro NSA propaganda especially after their Bengazi disaster. How anyone can take this seriously is beyond me. And the fact that Alexander could blatantly lie to the world on national television is outrageous.

tn13 13y ago

LOL. NSA is spying on all H1B employees, foreign students and rest of the world. If they have that capability I am not sure how exactly they would filter out US persons. Secondly, these people have the history of lying to Congress itself. I am not sure if they give any shit about media and general public. As a non-american one thing is absolutely clear to me. Given two equal services always choose a non-american one.