8 ms·

I have for a while thought of you as (total honesty here) a bullying cock (though talented at what you do), but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offer

I have for a while thought of you as (total honesty here) a bullying cock (though talented at what you do), but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offered to someone for whom this could be greatly helpful has made me seriously reconsider. Kudos.

kibibu 13y ago
It strikes me that Zed has been on the receiving end of way more bullying than he has given out (including being called a cock by you in this very post)
- kunai 13y ago
  Well, he did call _why a dick (which is just a no in my book), but when all is said and done I think this is irrelevant. He's giving a guy in need a hand, and I think we should all look up to Zed for it.
- termain 13y ago
  "I thought of you as" is not the same thing as "you are a".
  - tempestn 13y ago
    It still makes for a pretty damned backhanded compliment.
    - singular 13y ago
      Understandable that it came off that way, genuinely not intended as that. It's bloody hard to express something sincerely on the internet without sounding like you're just being sarcastic.
      - tempestn 13y ago
        IMO the best way to go about it in this case would have been simply to express your appreciation/admiration/whatever for his actions here, and ignore the past. That would clearly imply that you've at least somewhat adjusted your opinion, without having to explicitly bring it up. Of course, it also wouldn't have spawned a hundred-comment sub-thread.
    - Semaphor 13y ago
      Why? I'd rather have someone tell me what they thought of me and that I managed to change their mind.
      - tempestn 13y ago
        I can understand that POV, but I expect you're in the minority. Most people in my experience respond better to "I respect you," than to "I used to think you were a cock, but now I'm reconsidering and starting to respect you."
- hbags 13y ago
  Speaking of cocks, the technical leadership at two well-funded startups systematically harassed Zed by adding him to github repos that contained nothing but ASCII cocks. I know this because they bragged about it openly, thinking it hilarious. Zed takes a lot of abuse for little reason. I debated naming the companies here, but they appear to be failing anyway. Probably because they hired the sort of people who find harassment hilarious. edit: removed oblique reference to one of the companies. I don't feel like giving those firms any publicity, even if it's bad publicity.
  - kstop 13y ago
    Reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome
  - joseph_cooney 13y ago
    Time to name and shame.
  - rrouse 13y ago
    For those that don't know what hbags is referring to: https://github.com/moron5/dongml https://github.com/moron5/dongml Apparently the twitter account referenced on moron5.com is still active and is passively still trying to be a dick https://twitter.com/elotente https://twitter.com/elotente
    - aaronem 13y ago
      Who let the 4chan kids out of their cages? Edit: No, seriously, that "DongML" stuff is like something 4chan's technology board might aspire to, if they could put down their bongs and endless WM tweaking for five minutes in a row.
- singular 13y ago
  "I have for a while thought of you as (total honesty here) a bullying cock" Notice the past tense. I based that opinion on the many aggressive attacking posts by Zed (for which he is well-known), particularly the attack of Mark Pilgrim (now deleted.) That impression may be right or it may be wrong, but for good or for bad it's one that I got, and I felt my not mentioning that or hedging it here would be intellectually dishonest. Note what I said next:- "but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offered to someone for whom this could be greatly helpful has made me seriously reconsider. Kudos." Which I really meant sincerely. It was actually meant to be a genuine compliment, but it is really hard to put that across without sounding sarcastic. Ah well.
  - zedshaw 13y ago
    Again, rewriting history. I attacked Mark only after he refused to fix his book, despite my offer of help, and told me to go fuck myself. He'd also attacked many other people in an exactly similar way before I did. I mean, c'mon, all I did was replicate this post Mark did: http://web.archive.org/web/20070418001022/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/04/16/dhh-translation http://web.archive.org/web/20070418001022/http://diveintomar... I didn't see you calling Mark a cock after he wrote that. And, let's not forget that when Mark did take his gear off the internet I was sympathetic and told people to not "kick a man when he's down", something I'm damn sure he wouldn't do for me. So if you're bringing out Mark Pilgrim as your shining example of people I "bullied" you pretty much picked about the worst example ever. Mark was a dick who shit on quite a few people in his day and deserved a little bit in return. Thinking that he was some choirboy that I beat up is a very naive way to view the world, but that's what I expect from someone who builds up mythical opinions of people they've never met. Anyway, closing this tab now. I've sent out about 60 emails helping people find work and will be looking at about 10 resumes tomorrow in the time it took you to write these little comments. You rock dude!
    - singular 13y ago
      I don't think it's rewriting history to say you were aggressive and attacking, I do absolutely accept that you might have been 100% in the right and justified in that. I got the impression you were being bullying - my whole point here is that I felt I was wrong, and your kindness made me reconsider. My little comments (indeed they are little, I make no claims otherwise) were actually genuinely and seriously meant to be complimentary while being open and direct about the impression I had. Actually, please do ignore me and carry on helping people. These kind of arguments are a waste of time, what you're doing to help these people isn't. I admire it.
typicalrunt 13y ago
Getting a bit OT here but I have to wade in... To people that know him personally, like myself, Zed is a great guy. My guess at the problem is that his Internet persona took on its own life outside of his control, and it grew to such a bad situation that it was better to not try to feed the trolls and simply put some distance from it. In other words, let the haters hate and be ignored, stand up for yourself when appropriate, and the good people will eventually acknowledge good deeds and fight for you.
- sharkweek 13y ago
  I don't personally know Zed outside of his internet persona -- and to me it seems like he's just a guy who doesn't put up with bullshit. I have never seen a time where he's an asshole to anyone who isn't shooting first. He puts his opinions out there and sometimes those cause flame wars so if you catch him in the middle of one those on Twitter then I can definitely see where people might think he's a jerk. His tweets are comedy gold though -- highly recommend everyone follow him -- @zedshaw edit: case and point -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6806748 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6806748
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - davidw 13y ago
    > doesn't put up with bullshit Unless it's his own, like all the FUD he spread a number of years ago about Debian. Even beyond that, I guess I'm just not a fan of the "it's ok to swear and be harsh to people as long as you happen to be right" approach to life. Look at how kind and helpful someone like patio11 is, without all the vitriol.
    - ericd 13y ago
      Zed has to do Zed, just like Patrick does Patrick.
  - niels_bom 13y ago
    "case in point" :-)
peteforde 13y ago
Zed is often misunderstood by those who have never spent time with him in person. He's a hoot! Funny, insightful, earnestly well-intentioned and full of ideas that are IMHO way ahead of the curve. Him reaching out to help is not surprising.
santoshalper 13y ago
I have no idea if he is a bullying cock or not, but his personal website is a spectacular artifact of narcissistic douchebaggery. I am not sure I have ever seen someone tell you he doesn't care what you think of him so many times in such a short span. It reads like a high school journal. One day, when he is an adult, he will look back on that and really cringe.
zedshaw 13y ago
Well, here we go again. You'll call me a cock, and then I'll rip you in half verbally, and then you'll forget that you called me a cock and go off telling everyone I'm such a big bad bullying meanie for all the horrible awful things I said to you, and then I'll be crushed by the general opinion all you highly influential meaningful people have about me that I'll... Wait, actually I don't give a fuck what you think. I'm busy helping people while you're busy calling me a cock. Fuck you.
- avenger123 13y ago
  Nice, thanks for the laughs.
- Namrog84 13y ago
  Hah brilliant!
- singular 13y ago
  ...but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offered to someone for whom this could be greatly helpful has made me seriously reconsider. Kudos. I felt you'd appreciate an unhedged opinion rather than me adding a bunch of weasel words like "I had the impression, right or wrong, that you were a bullying cock..." I meant to say, very sincerely, that I was moved by your offer of help and it very much made me reconsider my opinion, as that gesture of kindness is really at odds with that impression of you. So - sorry for calling you a cock. I thought what you did here was very noble and I admire it. I just felt there was no other way of expressing what I felt without being cowardly and weasel-worded about it.
  - manmal 13y ago
    If there is no way to express something without hurting either yourself or the other one, express yourself on a different topic. I would hate this comment too if it were directed at me.
    - Tarks 13y ago
      Terrible, terrible advice. Every interaction with someone carries the chance of impact, the closer you get to talking about things related to or stemming from their core values the higher the chance you'll provoke a strong reaction (positive or negative). If you're not willing to potentially (perhaps not intentionally) express a viewpoint that could hurt the other person, then you'll be forever only talking about unimportant gumf or giving half-stated opinions that might not get the gravitas of a situation across. Looking someone dead in the eye and without ego telling them "You're fucking up right now. Here's why" is a loving thing to do, and I'm thankful that someone cared enough to "hurt me"
scrrr 13y ago
Grow up and stop worrying so much about what people think or say.
znowi 13y ago
Yea, seeing zedshaw's comment I thought he was about to ridicule the guy for whatever reason. This was unexpected. A good deed, though it doesn't make him not a bullying cock all of a sudden. He's a stellar rockstar with attitude. It happens :)
shin_lao 13y ago
Every coin has two faces.
nollidge 13y ago
Christ, not this shit again. Can we all please rise above talking about personalities? How fucking drab.
gress 13y ago
Will people please stop replying to this otherwise HN's 'flame war' and controversy detectors will kick in and bury the posting.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

kibibu 13y ago

It strikes me that Zed has been on the receiving end of way more bullying than he has given out (including being called a cock by you in this very post)

kunai 13y ago
Well, he did call _why a dick (which is just a no in my book), but when all is said and done I think this is irrelevant. He's giving a guy in need a hand, and I think we should all look up to Zed for it.
termain 13y ago
"I thought of you as" is not the same thing as "you are a".
- tempestn 13y ago
  It still makes for a pretty damned backhanded compliment.
  - singular 13y ago
    Understandable that it came off that way, genuinely not intended as that. It's bloody hard to express something sincerely on the internet without sounding like you're just being sarcastic.
    - tempestn 13y ago
      IMO the best way to go about it in this case would have been simply to express your appreciation/admiration/whatever for his actions here, and ignore the past. That would clearly imply that you've at least somewhat adjusted your opinion, without having to explicitly bring it up. Of course, it also wouldn't have spawned a hundred-comment sub-thread.
  - Semaphor 13y ago
    Why? I'd rather have someone tell me what they thought of me and that I managed to change their mind.
    - tempestn 13y ago
      I can understand that POV, but I expect you're in the minority. Most people in my experience respond better to "I respect you," than to "I used to think you were a cock, but now I'm reconsidering and starting to respect you."
hbags 13y ago
Speaking of cocks, the technical leadership at two well-funded startups systematically harassed Zed by adding him to github repos that contained nothing but ASCII cocks. I know this because they bragged about it openly, thinking it hilarious. Zed takes a lot of abuse for little reason. I debated naming the companies here, but they appear to be failing anyway. Probably because they hired the sort of people who find harassment hilarious. edit: removed oblique reference to one of the companies. I don't feel like giving those firms any publicity, even if it's bad publicity.
- kstop 13y ago
  Reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome
- joseph_cooney 13y ago
  Time to name and shame.
- rrouse 13y ago
  For those that don't know what hbags is referring to: https://github.com/moron5/dongml https://github.com/moron5/dongml Apparently the twitter account referenced on moron5.com is still active and is passively still trying to be a dick https://twitter.com/elotente https://twitter.com/elotente
  - aaronem 13y ago
    Who let the 4chan kids out of their cages? Edit: No, seriously, that "DongML" stuff is like something 4chan's technology board might aspire to, if they could put down their bongs and endless WM tweaking for five minutes in a row.
singular 13y ago
"I have for a while thought of you as (total honesty here) a bullying cock" Notice the past tense. I based that opinion on the many aggressive attacking posts by Zed (for which he is well-known), particularly the attack of Mark Pilgrim (now deleted.) That impression may be right or it may be wrong, but for good or for bad it's one that I got, and I felt my not mentioning that or hedging it here would be intellectually dishonest. Note what I said next:- "but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offered to someone for whom this could be greatly helpful has made me seriously reconsider. Kudos." Which I really meant sincerely. It was actually meant to be a genuine compliment, but it is really hard to put that across without sounding sarcastic. Ah well.
- zedshaw 13y ago
  Again, rewriting history. I attacked Mark only after he refused to fix his book, despite my offer of help, and told me to go fuck myself. He'd also attacked many other people in an exactly similar way before I did. I mean, c'mon, all I did was replicate this post Mark did: http://web.archive.org/web/20070418001022/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/04/16/dhh-translation http://web.archive.org/web/20070418001022/http://diveintomar... I didn't see you calling Mark a cock after he wrote that. And, let's not forget that when Mark did take his gear off the internet I was sympathetic and told people to not "kick a man when he's down", something I'm damn sure he wouldn't do for me. So if you're bringing out Mark Pilgrim as your shining example of people I "bullied" you pretty much picked about the worst example ever. Mark was a dick who shit on quite a few people in his day and deserved a little bit in return. Thinking that he was some choirboy that I beat up is a very naive way to view the world, but that's what I expect from someone who builds up mythical opinions of people they've never met. Anyway, closing this tab now. I've sent out about 60 emails helping people find work and will be looking at about 10 resumes tomorrow in the time it took you to write these little comments. You rock dude!
  - singular 13y ago
    I don't think it's rewriting history to say you were aggressive and attacking, I do absolutely accept that you might have been 100% in the right and justified in that. I got the impression you were being bullying - my whole point here is that I felt I was wrong, and your kindness made me reconsider. My little comments (indeed they are little, I make no claims otherwise) were actually genuinely and seriously meant to be complimentary while being open and direct about the impression I had. Actually, please do ignore me and carry on helping people. These kind of arguments are a waste of time, what you're doing to help these people isn't. I admire it.

typicalrunt 13y ago

Getting a bit OT here but I have to wade in... To people that know him personally, like myself, Zed is a great guy. My guess at the problem is that his Internet persona took on its own life outside of his control, and it grew to such a bad situation that it was better to not try to feed the trolls and simply put some distance from it. In other words, let the haters hate and be ignored, stand up for yourself when appropriate, and the good people will eventually acknowledge good deeds and fight for you.

sharkweek 13y ago
I don't personally know Zed outside of his internet persona -- and to me it seems like he's just a guy who doesn't put up with bullshit. I have never seen a time where he's an asshole to anyone who isn't shooting first. He puts his opinions out there and sometimes those cause flame wars so if you catch him in the middle of one those on Twitter then I can definitely see where people might think he's a jerk. His tweets are comedy gold though -- highly recommend everyone follow him -- @zedshaw edit: case and point -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6806748 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6806748
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- davidw 13y ago
  > doesn't put up with bullshit Unless it's his own, like all the FUD he spread a number of years ago about Debian. Even beyond that, I guess I'm just not a fan of the "it's ok to swear and be harsh to people as long as you happen to be right" approach to life. Look at how kind and helpful someone like patio11 is, without all the vitriol.
  - ericd 13y ago
    Zed has to do Zed, just like Patrick does Patrick.
- niels_bom 13y ago
  "case in point" :-)

peteforde 13y ago

Zed is often misunderstood by those who have never spent time with him in person. He's a hoot! Funny, insightful, earnestly well-intentioned and full of ideas that are IMHO way ahead of the curve. Him reaching out to help is not surprising.

santoshalper 13y ago

I have no idea if he is a bullying cock or not, but his personal website is a spectacular artifact of narcissistic douchebaggery. I am not sure I have ever seen someone tell you he doesn't care what you think of him so many times in such a short span. It reads like a high school journal. One day, when he is an adult, he will look back on that and really cringe.

zedshaw 13y ago

Well, here we go again. You'll call me a cock, and then I'll rip you in half verbally, and then you'll forget that you called me a cock and go off telling everyone I'm such a big bad bullying meanie for all the horrible awful things I said to you, and then I'll be crushed by the general opinion all you highly influential meaningful people have about me that I'll... Wait, actually I don't give a fuck what you think. I'm busy helping people while you're busy calling me a cock. Fuck you.

avenger123 13y ago
Nice, thanks for the laughs.
Namrog84 13y ago
Hah brilliant!
singular 13y ago
...but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offered to someone for whom this could be greatly helpful has made me seriously reconsider. Kudos. I felt you'd appreciate an unhedged opinion rather than me adding a bunch of weasel words like "I had the impression, right or wrong, that you were a bullying cock..." I meant to say, very sincerely, that I was moved by your offer of help and it very much made me reconsider my opinion, as that gesture of kindness is really at odds with that impression of you. So - sorry for calling you a cock. I thought what you did here was very noble and I admire it. I just felt there was no other way of expressing what I felt without being cowardly and weasel-worded about it.
- manmal 13y ago
  If there is no way to express something without hurting either yourself or the other one, express yourself on a different topic. I would hate this comment too if it were directed at me.
  - Tarks 13y ago
    Terrible, terrible advice. Every interaction with someone carries the chance of impact, the closer you get to talking about things related to or stemming from their core values the higher the chance you'll provoke a strong reaction (positive or negative). If you're not willing to potentially (perhaps not intentionally) express a viewpoint that could hurt the other person, then you'll be forever only talking about unimportant gumf or giving half-stated opinions that might not get the gravitas of a situation across. Looking someone dead in the eye and without ego telling them "You're fucking up right now. Here's why" is a loving thing to do, and I'm thankful that someone cared enough to "hurt me"

scrrr 13y ago

Grow up and stop worrying so much about what people think or say.

znowi 13y ago

Yea, seeing zedshaw's comment I thought he was about to ridicule the guy for whatever reason. This was unexpected. A good deed, though it doesn't make him not a bullying cock all of a sudden. He's a stellar rockstar with attitude. It happens :)

shin_lao 13y ago

Every coin has two faces.

nollidge 13y ago

Christ, not this shit again. Can we all please rise above talking about personalities? How fucking drab.

gress 13y ago

Will people please stop replying to this otherwise HN's 'flame war' and controversy detectors will kick in and bury the posting.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]