8 ms·

America knows everything

200 points by flashfabrixx 13y ago

stretchwithme 13y ago
So much wasted time, money and energy and much freedom lost. Welcome to the land of cops and lawyers.
flashfabrixx 13y ago
It seems that every day new reports are published talking about victims that are denied to enter the USA because of the wildest reasons - even with legal papers. But it's not only the arbitrariness that every report seems to claim. It's more than that the behaviour of the officials towards citizens of other countrys and nations. "America knows everything" - and you're not welcome any more.
rxaxm 13y ago
"I noticed an Indian boy in his early twenties at the end of the room." anyone else think of aditya? http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-during-ramadan http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-...
znowi 13y ago
Any person visiting the US today should be expecting this
- ojbyrne 13y ago
  That seems slightly hyperbolic. 50 million people visit the US every year.
swombat 13y ago
Welcome to America, where we read your private mail, track all your movements online, shoot your dogs, abuse you at the borders, put antibiotics in your food, bankrupt you when you get sick, throw you in jail with hardened criminals if you smoke a spliff, and drone-execute you with no warrant if the president doesn't like you. Would you like fries with that?
- drivebyacct2 13y ago
  Land of the freeeeee, hooooome of the brave. (I'm also beating my chest with my hand and yelling about American Exceptionalism too)
- wmoxam 13y ago
  Home of the brave indeed
  - alive-or-not 13y ago
    Land of the banksters, home of the sheeple ...
    - shrnky 13y ago
      Ya, because the banksters are the ones invading my privacy. Last time I checked it was the current and previous president. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.
      - alive-or-not 13y ago
        "Guns don't kill people" Presidents are just tools in the hands of whoever owns the finance and media outlets.
- znowi 13y ago
  I suspect soon enough (unless it's already a trend) Americans may be afraid to even speak of this in public as with mass surveillance you never know how and when your unfavorable words of the regime may affect you.
  - atlanticus 13y ago
    I suspect you don't know any Americans.
    - Helianthus 13y ago
Jd 13y ago
It's very hard to extrapolate from stories like this to know if the actual instance and intensity of abuses is increasing, or if reportage is increasing (i.e. landing on HN front page) because of folk's irritation with other aspects of the US government. For my money, TSA is right after HSA as far as FUBAR government agencies go. Seems like quality control is right in the shitter. As for solutions, I'd like to see a customer satisfaction survey implemented across the board. You might actually be able to implement something like this in a favorable political environment (there's no law saying that TSA has to attempt to piss off every person that comes through our borders). I've noticed that some of these completely dysfunctional agencies seem to attract the worst sort of bad eggs, so with something like that you could at least weed out some of the most underperforming TSA mob squads.
- rhizome 13y ago
  I don't think any rate of change of instances of abuse matters a whit. As for the TSA/HSA, I really think there's a case of governmental PTSD and they really have no idea what they're doing, so they just fuck with everybody. There's no strategy, they just collect all the data at the NSA, crawl up your asshole at the airport, detain you for a random number of days, and call these policies of full-spectrum personal invasions "protecting the country." They hire the stupidest, weakest and most unquestioning people so that they will perform perfectly robotically, with a maximum snitch factor. Seriously, they're just guessing.
- GauntletWizard 13y ago
  The TSA has nothing to do with this interrogation, as bad as they are; Customs and Border Patrol are the offenders, here. And this guy made a critical mistake: He announced his intent to "work" in the United States; i.e. he was going to play shows. This requires a Visa, even for nonprofit purposes, which is a silly law, but it is the law.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    Mexico has a similar law. Near where my parents live, they recently started enforcing it with some vigor. The problem being that foreign musicians (mostly Americans) were playing shows for "donations". Whether that was actual donations or bar owners donating was unclear, but either way it was plausible that these people were displacing musicians entitled to work. The shorter version: jackasses getting around a law cause more laws, ruining things for everybody.
Sambdala 13y ago
I feel helpless each time I read an account like this. I used to get angry.
- kaoD 13y ago
  So they've won...
gweinberg 13y ago
Anyone else reminded of the Solzhenitsyn book, "We never make mistakes"?
catilac 13y ago
Even if you were born and raised in America, you're not truly American unless you're white. Until then, prepare to be accosted at immigration.
- ojbyrne 13y ago
  White and gainfully employed, I think.
  - alive-or-not 13y ago
    Not really, having a few million $ is good enough.
- gnoway 13y ago
  Maybe, but the events in this article are bad enough on their own, there is no need to inject a racial element into the discussion.
  - catilac 13y ago
    No, I think there is a need. If the definition of what it is to be American is warped, specifically, that it takes more than citizenship to be welcomed home, then that should come into the discussion of these cases of mistreated foreigners.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - gnoway 13y ago
      OK, but I read this as "oh that's nothing, we even mistreat our own." I think you're effectively minimizing this man's experience with an unfounded (?? maybe just my ignorance) comment about racial profiling.
      - catilac 13y ago
        Ah, that makes sense. You're right, I'm probably bringing in the wrong points relative to his experience. However, I just feel that his experience opens up a higher level discussion of America's (poor?) implementation of border patrol. Also, in terms of unfounded comments. There is a chance you haven't read this: http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-during-ramadan http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-... Race is always complex, especially because racism illegal. It becomes a subtle and hard to describe thing. Maybe "random search" is a good way to describe it. Ultimately, it makes me feel like I'm being delusional. I hope I am.
mherdeg 13y ago
This seems like a good place to leave a quick plug for the recent computer game "Papers, Please", which perfectly simulates the experience of being a clerk inspecting prospective entrants at the border of a dystopian republic and approving/denying visas. As the game progressed I found myself "just following orders", even as they got increasingly creepy, and now I think I have a much better understanding of what life is like for these people. There are rules, and you follow them because your job is to carry out the rules. You may occasionally think hard about whether what you're doing is wrong, but you don't stop doing it because you've got a family to feed. Spooky stuff. I felt like I had a much better understanding, after 30 minutes in the game, of what border agents are actually doing when I give them my passport.
- Amadou 13y ago
  You might find the essay, 'The Checkpoint' interesting (and thoroughly bleak). It is by an Israel Defense Force conscriptee who started working those internal checkpoints between israel proper and the occupied territories. It is an account of how an even more extreme situation is utterly soul-destroying for the people working those jobs, no matter how good their initial intentions are. http://www.bostonreview.net/BR37.4/oded_naaman_israeli_defense_forces_palestinians_occupation.php http://www.bostonreview.net/BR37.4/oded_naaman_israeli_defen...
  - anonymousDan 13y ago
    Wow, that was a powerful read.
wrobbins 13y ago
tl;dr
drpancake 13y ago
Well I'm glad this didn't happen to me. I travelled to the US in very similar circumstances a few weeks ago: European, carrying a guitar, visiting the South, previously stayed in the US on a J-1 intern visa. The only difference being that I had a one-way ticket. I didn't even go through secondary at customs. No issues.
- unreal37 13y ago
  The fact that it's arbitrary doesn't make it any better.
  - drpancake 13y ago
    Not defending these immigration officials by any means. It's just a timely and mildly interesting anecdote.
- colomon 13y ago
  Did you tell them you would be playing shows?
  - drpancake 13y ago
    I wasn't playing shows, just road tripping.
    - colomon 13y ago
      I'm pretty sure that's the key difference in this case.
pudquick 13y ago
While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he was: Trying to work several unpaid shows, he would receive meals and tips as compensation at one or more shows, and then he was going to write articles for Noisey (http://noisey.vice.com/ http://noisey.vice.com/) about it. Bringing musical instruments with you (and admitting you are a musician - even if just as a 'hobby') on a supposed tourism visit and going to one or more cities where you did not have relatives or explicit non-business reasons to be there probably immediately triggered an investigation as to why he did not have a visa / whether he required a visa for his visit. Yes - our border control system is horrible. I totally grant that. But this person was also explicitly not playing by the work visa rules either.
- jaeysin 13y ago
  I don't think this is true. He explained that we would write a travelogue (that would be published), explore the music scene, visit his aunt and play free shows (where he might receive tips). The article you linked says: "participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating" It sounds like he would solidly qualify for that, considering it does not sound like these were shows contracted specifically for pay. And even if, somehow they suspected that he was in violation of these rules, it does not justify their actions.
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    Strictly speaking, isn't getting tips and food being paid? After all, don't food service workers get paid in tips?
    - andmarios 13y ago
      You could always try paying your taxes in cannoli to see if food qualifies as payment.
natch 13y ago
I wonder if they are using some of the tools developed by Palantir.
benched 13y ago
Even as a U.S. citizen, every time I've traveled to other countries in the past few years, it's always jarring going from the hospitable, friendly customs people in the other countries, to the literally rude awakening of getting practically accosted by the agents in the U.S. upon returning.
- pjlegato 13y ago
  Try Russia or Germany - neither country has border officials that could be described as "hospitable" or "friendly." They make US border guards look like teddy bears.
  - jansen 13y ago
    I cannot speak for Russia, but Germany cultivates a fundamental mentality of liberalism and respect, for any kind. It will be very difficult to find someone in Germany that wears a badge who has less than 13 years of school education or acts unreasonably, disrespectful or doesn't play by the rules.
    - pjlegato 13y ago
      I didn't say they weren't respectful. I said they cannot be described as hospitable or friendly, which is true. German border guards are very professional and respectful -- they follow the rules exactly -- but they're not friendly. They're rather cold.
      - jansen 13y ago
        Fair enough. They are cold or better 'neutral'. I'd take cold and neutral any time over judgmental and degrading.
        pjlegato 13y ago
        I've come into the US many times, and personally witnessed thousands of people being granted entry into the US with nothing but professionalism. Cases such as this are certainly rare. There will always be a few people in any large group who treat others badly, and US border guards are no exception. I'm sure we could find rare similar cases in Germany or anywhere else, too.
unreal37 13y ago
To play devil's advocate, he traveled to the U.S. with a guitar, had 5 shows booked in advance before his arrival, uses a pseudonym to perform and didn't declare any of this to the border officials. I think the article can also say he has a CD coming out soon. I can actually see why he was turned away. He's a musician, hoping to travel and do some shows in the U.S. for fun. You can't work in the U.S. without a work visa. The rules are pretty clear about that. And performing for free is still work.
- jaeysin 13y ago
  According to their rules, performing for free is acceptable: "participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating" http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    Tips are suddenly not payment?
  - unreal37 13y ago
    Specifically denied is "paid performances, or any professional performance before a paying audience". If there was a cover charge to get in, it counts as work. http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html
    - jaeysin 13y ago
      I think they vagueness of this points to part of the problem. There is no real specification of what makes an amateur performer in a musical event. I would assume since he was not contracted to receive a payment for his performance, it would be acceptable. And just because there is a cover charge does not count as work. The cover charge is collected by the venue and does not mean he will get paid, which was specifically the case here.
- MortenK 13y ago
jmduke 13y ago
America's border control system is so broken that it saddens me to see posts like this that reek of sensationalism (I mean, it's Vice) and hide the fact that, you know, he didn't have a valid visa. I'm having trouble understanding what was so deplorable about this story besides the reprehensible treatment by the officials (which, again, seems exaggerated)? Am I misreading the story or is refusal to enter the country not the proper response to not having the correct documentation?
- machrider 13y ago
  Do you need a visa to visit the US for a couple weeks? He did have a passport.
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    If he's German, then he can use ESTA if he qualifies for the Visa Waiver Program. But performing for compensation (tips + food) is probably technically work so that wouldn't help, and he'd need a work visa, like he says in the article.
- philwelch 13y ago
  > I'm having trouble understanding what was so deplorable about this story besides the reprehensible treatment by the officials (which, again, seems exaggerated)? "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
  - jmduke 13y ago
    Right, but Abraham Lincoln did nothing wrong by going to the play and the author did something wrong (I don't mean in a moral sense, but in a sense of 'incorrect') by going to the United States without the proper visa.
    - philwelch 13y ago
      Well that's a tortured analogy if I've ever seen one.
fleitz 13y ago
I feel bad for the guy, but having been across the US border a few times it's important that if you're travelling for anything but spending money in the US you'd better phone and find out if you need a work visa. Volunteering? VISA. Working for free? VISA. Might ask someone for change? VISA. Speaking at a conference? VISA. Having coffee with someone and may discuss business? VISA. Friend might buy you a beer? VISA. You plan on bringing your bags to your hotel room yourself? VISA. Exceptions: If you are going straight to your hotel, then going to disneyland, going back to your hotel and back to the airport then you might not need a VISA, as long as you also know the flight number, airport, airline and seat number you'll be leaving the US on, then you might not need a VISA but should probably phone the consulate and find out anyway.
- RWeaver 13y ago
  I bet the tourism companies inside the USA are over the moon with where this is going.
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  First, it's visa, not VISA (which is the credit card company). Secondly, your examples are not correct. You're allowed to come over on visa waiver for business (it's one of the options to select), just not to perform work for compensation. You can certainly attend meetings.
RandallBrown 13y ago
I'm not sure what exactly happened, but this is what I gather from the translation. John was visiting the United States from London. He was planning on traveling through California with his girlfriend, then traveling through the south on his own, eventually meeting up with his aunt in Alabama. After landing, he had a problem in customs. He had a guitar with him and told the agent that he would be playing some shows in the US. He was then sent away from the US because he didn't have a work visa and he was here doing work. It sounds like this was a perfect storm of shitty situations. Take an overworked/stupid/bad (take your pick) security agent, someone who doesn't speak native english and may have had some trouble explaining his situation, an expired student visa (adds to confusion) and a weird "working" on vacation situation and you have a recipe for a bad time. It sucks.
- nisa 13y ago
  We don't know how good the translation is but I've read the article in German and there it clear that he studied in the US and presented a paper at a conference: http://www.euce.org/eusa/2011/papers/9d_farneti.pdf http://www.euce.org/eusa/2011/papers/9d_farneti.pdf. I'd say it was not a communication problem. Also: How did they know about his musician alias and his concert dates? From the article it looks like they read his emails. He could also have posted the dates for all to see on Facebook.
  - ams6110 13y ago
    My bet is Facebook, or other web content promoting his performances. Easily found with a routine google search.
koalaman 13y ago
It's kind of neat the way that google translate includes the german accent.
zobzu 13y ago
Ive been at the border several times, non us citizen, and i've always been treated with respect. In fact, the guys at the border were always nice to me, sometimes dared a joke or asked me for help to translate something to someone else. So yeah, i'm sure there's horrible ones and troubles happen, but i wouldn't make that a generality just like that.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  Frankly, there is this nice guy in Toronto (a CBP agent at a pre-check thing), he scares me. He's always been nice (I mean chatting and stuff, recognizing me, trying to speak French, etc.), but I'm always afraid that I might give the wrong answer to a joke or something and hell would break lose. Maybe the probability is lower because he's also a foreigner there, but once is enough to change your life. I can't help but think about the Zone Libre checkpoints when I cross the US border.
- jansen 13y ago
  I am one of the lucky ones as well and have been treated with respect every time. Sometimes I even had insightful conversations with border control. However, along the increasing rejections of visa for highly talented people + more and more stories like this one are signaling a very very bad trend. I have noticed both among my peers: visa rejections for founders with funding from US investors, befriended founders who are being pulled into second screening every time they enter the country, my co-founder being rejected to enter the country once and now also being pulled into second screening every time (despite having an O1 visa). It's degrading and simply horrifying. And most definitely not a good trend for the US. This is a very emotional topic. I get sad and angry every time I read or hear a similar story.
MichaelGG 13y ago
Key point: "The result was that I was denied entry because I was on a business trip unannounced. The payment in the form of a warm meal at one of the shows in Nashville at a restaurant with ten tables is apparently illegal." Well, yeah, sorta. If you come to perform a task and be compensated they might construe that as work. I'm not sure what he means by privacy violations - if his name is Googled, are there no results for his stage name? Did he have nothing in his items with his stage name? It seems odd to just assume CBP agents are doing something secret when this seems like public data. I'm Canadian, and I was detained at the border as one CBP agent felt I needed a work visa (not just stating I'm there for business reasons) to represent my company at a tradeshow. (OTOH the unions at conference centers also agree that lifting a box or plugging in cables is work so...) Fortunately his supervisor disagreed.
adventured 13y ago
When you hire vastly too many enforcement employees (I'm lumping HS/TSA/etc all together here), what ends up happening is they find things to do. The reality is, TSA and Homeland Security have very little to do. The threat is not greater today than it was 20 years ago, but we've acquired tens of thousands of new personnel with absolutely nothing meaningful to do (and the tens of billions of dollars in costs to go with them). You see the same exact effect in traditional police, SWAT teams, and so on. All that ends up happening is they terrorize good people.
rickjames28 13y ago
Leftists (and rightists) need to stop being scared of the freaking world. And that includes internal politics. Stop scare-mongering everything if some park ranger in Idaho is furlod (sic). This whole freaking planet has become a paranoid (we trust government) freak fest. Forget about it. It just sucks. Why do you leftists that sympathesize with this guy vote for a socialist like Obama?
Gravityloss 13y ago
Why can't the police / border guards just treat these humans as humans. Ok, do what you must, return them to the originating country if they break some law. It's unfortunate when it is a cool thing for some to be "tough" like this?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
dude3 13y ago
As a Chinese citizen you can come into the US ridiculously pregnant and have your kid in the US on a tourist visa via a flight and never get hassled. You can walk across the southern border and create a human fence around ICE vans and get a slap on the wrist. The problem: This guy doesn't serve a political interest so he gets hassled. Face it, this country is backwards and caters only to the elite.
- alexeisadeski3 13y ago
  I'm just a bit confused: How are an expectant Chinese mother and a Mexican migrant worker examples of the elite?
  - dude3 13y ago
    They are not the elite, they cater to the elite and special interests goals. China has 60 per cent of its $3.5tn foreign currency reserves invested in US assets. A housing program that offers green cards to foreigners who buy $500,000+ houses. How about the money going to US universities from 194,000 Chinese students. The $8.2 billion Chinese buyers spent in the 12 months to March 2013 of $70 billion on real estate. China will biggest economy in the world and we (USA) needs access. Migrant workers expand the population, provide cheap labor, and consumption A.K.A. grow the economy. They also vote.
    - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
      So you think that the elite in the US _want_ more competition from rich Chinese people in the US real estate market? Pretty sure they'd rather have that to themselves. The connection between Chinese currency reserves and pregnant women giving birth in the US is... what, exactly? You think that the people buying those reserves (Central Committee / PSC) like the idea of their citizens holding dual US-Chinese citizenship? Riiiight. And if this US elite were so hot on immigration (and influential), the US immigration system wouldn't be so insanely restrictive. US policy is dictated by the lowest common denominator.
    - dude3 13y ago
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
This is what happens when soccer moms and helicopter dads run your country. Selfishness and paranoia rule the day, all behind the guise of good intentions, fairness, and security.
scelerat 13y ago
This sort of thing has happened a number of times recently to people I know. I'm a musician and have lots friends who play in bands and book shows, so this hits close to home. Last month a band from Canada I was scheduled to play with was stopped at the border and told to turn around because they didn't have work visas. This group of four women in their late teens and early twenties -- day jobs at bars and restaurants, driving a shitty 1980s chevy van -- might get some gas money at the gig -- which is basically a party in a warehouse -- and free PBRs from a cooler that the bands all share. This is not the sort of commerce that threatens jobs or the US economy. A musician I know just tried to go the legit route but failed to meet the artistic reputation standards of the Artist (o-1) Visa. US Immigration wanted newspaper and magazine reviews and proof of past shows at recognizable venues. If you're a small artist on a small label, you're not going to have those. You'll have chatter about you on blogs and twitter and facebook, you will have played at house parties, warehouses and bars, and you're on a small label website which, honestly, anyone could spoof to look legit. Nevertheless this guy is a real artist with a great record that a thousand people have bought. The shows he was going to play probably would have drawn capacity crowds at a handful of punk rock venues in the SF Bay and elsewhere. But he can't play or even come to the US because he's not "exceptional" enough. I have a friend who is on a student visa from a middle eastern country and presently doing the exact same thing as the OP: traveling around the US with a guitar and making friends. I sent this to him immediately with the instructions: "do not ever say you are playing a show. do not ever say you are a musician. if they ask you about the guitar, tell them you're learning how to play." As for the OP, he's just a student. He's not getting paid. Someone's cooking him dinner and giving him tips because that's what hospitable people do. Our immigration policies treat harmless people harshly and are absurd.
- dec0dedab0de 13y ago
  Absolutely. There really needs to be a treaty between all friendly countries that says artists are allowed as tourists as long as they don't make more than X amount of profit.
- waqf 13y ago
  > He's not getting paid. Someone's cooking him dinner and giving him tips because that's what hospitable people do. I agree, but if I were making the case to the INS I would phrase it differently: feeding someone who came to town specially isn't remunerating them, it's covering their expenses. And covering someone's expenses doesn't take money away from Americans who need jobs — because the American who didn't get the unpaid gig because this foreigner got it instead, is now sitting at home and consequently doesn't have travel expenses that need covering.
smoyer 13y ago
How many of these do I have to read ... this is my government and I DEMAND more from it. (Of course right now they've closed every office that might accomplish something visible). In the mean-time, I'd like to apologize to the citizens of earth for the horrible behavior of those performing in our security theater. EDIT: My trips to Germany were very pleasant ... with the exception of having to take goods through customs (for expediency's sake), everyone was pleasant, courteous and relatively efficient.
SonicSoul 13y ago
this site sucks so bad from a phone. every time i scroll i get some sort of context ad that covers half my screen. not you Vice.. not you :(
JackFr 13y ago
I suppose it might be google translate, but this seems like a guy lying on his visa application, being rudely called out on it, and letting his fierce sense of entitlement take over.
g8oz 13y ago
I'm interested in the fact that it seems that low level border flunkies have access to the email of anyone they're interested in for work violations. Not terrorism or anything. Another example of security state mission creep. Download all your emails now.

200 points by flashfabrixx 13y ago

So much wasted time, money and energy and much freedom lost. Welcome to the land of cops and lawyers.

It seems that every day new reports are published talking about victims that are denied to enter the USA because of the wildest reasons - even with legal papers. But it's not only the arbitrariness that every report seems to claim. It's more than that the behaviour of the officials towards citizens of other countrys and nations. "America knows everything" - and you're not welcome any more.

rxaxm 13y ago

"I noticed an Indian boy in his early twenties at the end of the room." anyone else think of aditya? http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-during-ramadan http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-...

znowi 13y ago

Any person visiting the US today should be expecting this

ojbyrne 13y ago
That seems slightly hyperbolic. 50 million people visit the US every year.

swombat 13y ago

Welcome to America, where we read your private mail, track all your movements online, shoot your dogs, abuse you at the borders, put antibiotics in your food, bankrupt you when you get sick, throw you in jail with hardened criminals if you smoke a spliff, and drone-execute you with no warrant if the president doesn't like you. Would you like fries with that?

drivebyacct2 13y ago
Land of the freeeeee, hooooome of the brave. (I'm also beating my chest with my hand and yelling about American Exceptionalism too)
wmoxam 13y ago
Home of the brave indeed
- alive-or-not 13y ago
  Land of the banksters, home of the sheeple ...
  - shrnky 13y ago
    Ya, because the banksters are the ones invading my privacy. Last time I checked it was the current and previous president. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.
    - alive-or-not 13y ago
      "Guns don't kill people" Presidents are just tools in the hands of whoever owns the finance and media outlets.
znowi 13y ago
I suspect soon enough (unless it's already a trend) Americans may be afraid to even speak of this in public as with mass surveillance you never know how and when your unfavorable words of the regime may affect you.
- atlanticus 13y ago
  I suspect you don't know any Americans.
  - Helianthus 13y ago

Jd 13y ago

It's very hard to extrapolate from stories like this to know if the actual instance and intensity of abuses is increasing, or if reportage is increasing (i.e. landing on HN front page) because of folk's irritation with other aspects of the US government. For my money, TSA is right after HSA as far as FUBAR government agencies go. Seems like quality control is right in the shitter. As for solutions, I'd like to see a customer satisfaction survey implemented across the board. You might actually be able to implement something like this in a favorable political environment (there's no law saying that TSA has to attempt to piss off every person that comes through our borders). I've noticed that some of these completely dysfunctional agencies seem to attract the worst sort of bad eggs, so with something like that you could at least weed out some of the most underperforming TSA mob squads.

rhizome 13y ago
I don't think any rate of change of instances of abuse matters a whit. As for the TSA/HSA, I really think there's a case of governmental PTSD and they really have no idea what they're doing, so they just fuck with everybody. There's no strategy, they just collect all the data at the NSA, crawl up your asshole at the airport, detain you for a random number of days, and call these policies of full-spectrum personal invasions "protecting the country." They hire the stupidest, weakest and most unquestioning people so that they will perform perfectly robotically, with a maximum snitch factor. Seriously, they're just guessing.
GauntletWizard 13y ago
The TSA has nothing to do with this interrogation, as bad as they are; Customs and Border Patrol are the offenders, here. And this guy made a critical mistake: He announced his intent to "work" in the United States; i.e. he was going to play shows. This requires a Visa, even for nonprofit purposes, which is a silly law, but it is the law.
- wpietri 13y ago
  Mexico has a similar law. Near where my parents live, they recently started enforcing it with some vigor. The problem being that foreign musicians (mostly Americans) were playing shows for "donations". Whether that was actual donations or bar owners donating was unclear, but either way it was plausible that these people were displacing musicians entitled to work. The shorter version: jackasses getting around a law cause more laws, ruining things for everybody.

Sambdala 13y ago

I feel helpless each time I read an account like this. I used to get angry.

kaoD 13y ago
So they've won...

gweinberg 13y ago

Anyone else reminded of the Solzhenitsyn book, "We never make mistakes"?

catilac 13y ago

Even if you were born and raised in America, you're not truly American unless you're white. Until then, prepare to be accosted at immigration.

ojbyrne 13y ago
White and gainfully employed, I think.
- alive-or-not 13y ago
  Not really, having a few million $ is good enough.
gnoway 13y ago
Maybe, but the events in this article are bad enough on their own, there is no need to inject a racial element into the discussion.
- catilac 13y ago
  No, I think there is a need. If the definition of what it is to be American is warped, specifically, that it takes more than citizenship to be welcomed home, then that should come into the discussion of these cases of mistreated foreigners.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - gnoway 13y ago
    OK, but I read this as "oh that's nothing, we even mistreat our own." I think you're effectively minimizing this man's experience with an unfounded (?? maybe just my ignorance) comment about racial profiling.
    - catilac 13y ago
      Ah, that makes sense. You're right, I'm probably bringing in the wrong points relative to his experience. However, I just feel that his experience opens up a higher level discussion of America's (poor?) implementation of border patrol. Also, in terms of unfounded comments. There is a chance you haven't read this: http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-during-ramadan http://varnull.adityamukerjee.net/post/59021412512/dont-fly-... Race is always complex, especially because racism illegal. It becomes a subtle and hard to describe thing. Maybe "random search" is a good way to describe it. Ultimately, it makes me feel like I'm being delusional. I hope I am.

mherdeg 13y ago

This seems like a good place to leave a quick plug for the recent computer game "Papers, Please", which perfectly simulates the experience of being a clerk inspecting prospective entrants at the border of a dystopian republic and approving/denying visas. As the game progressed I found myself "just following orders", even as they got increasingly creepy, and now I think I have a much better understanding of what life is like for these people. There are rules, and you follow them because your job is to carry out the rules. You may occasionally think hard about whether what you're doing is wrong, but you don't stop doing it because you've got a family to feed. Spooky stuff. I felt like I had a much better understanding, after 30 minutes in the game, of what border agents are actually doing when I give them my passport.

Amadou 13y ago
You might find the essay, 'The Checkpoint' interesting (and thoroughly bleak). It is by an Israel Defense Force conscriptee who started working those internal checkpoints between israel proper and the occupied territories. It is an account of how an even more extreme situation is utterly soul-destroying for the people working those jobs, no matter how good their initial intentions are. http://www.bostonreview.net/BR37.4/oded_naaman_israeli_defense_forces_palestinians_occupation.php http://www.bostonreview.net/BR37.4/oded_naaman_israeli_defen...
- anonymousDan 13y ago
  Wow, that was a powerful read.

wrobbins 13y ago

tl;dr

drpancake 13y ago

Well I'm glad this didn't happen to me. I travelled to the US in very similar circumstances a few weeks ago: European, carrying a guitar, visiting the South, previously stayed in the US on a J-1 intern visa. The only difference being that I had a one-way ticket. I didn't even go through secondary at customs. No issues.

unreal37 13y ago
The fact that it's arbitrary doesn't make it any better.
- drpancake 13y ago
  Not defending these immigration officials by any means. It's just a timely and mildly interesting anecdote.
colomon 13y ago
Did you tell them you would be playing shows?
- drpancake 13y ago
  I wasn't playing shows, just road tripping.
  - colomon 13y ago
    I'm pretty sure that's the key difference in this case.

pudquick 13y ago

While I agree that this person was probably treated very poorly, I also want to point out that they were traveling for work purposes. In the United States, non-US citizens entering the country for work purposes are generally required to get a visa. There are a few (and very few at that) business exceptions to this process, as listed here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html He stated that he was: Trying to work several unpaid shows, he would receive meals and tips as compensation at one or more shows, and then he was going to write articles for Noisey (http://noisey.vice.com/ http://noisey.vice.com/) about it. Bringing musical instruments with you (and admitting you are a musician - even if just as a 'hobby') on a supposed tourism visit and going to one or more cities where you did not have relatives or explicit non-business reasons to be there probably immediately triggered an investigation as to why he did not have a visa / whether he required a visa for his visit. Yes - our border control system is horrible. I totally grant that. But this person was also explicitly not playing by the work visa rules either.

jaeysin 13y ago
I don't think this is true. He explained that we would write a travelogue (that would be published), explore the music scene, visit his aunt and play free shows (where he might receive tips). The article you linked says: "participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating" It sounds like he would solidly qualify for that, considering it does not sound like these were shows contracted specifically for pay. And even if, somehow they suspected that he was in violation of these rules, it does not justify their actions.
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  Strictly speaking, isn't getting tips and food being paid? After all, don't food service workers get paid in tips?
  - andmarios 13y ago
    You could always try paying your taxes in cannoli to see if food qualifies as payment.

natch 13y ago

I wonder if they are using some of the tools developed by Palantir.

benched 13y ago

Even as a U.S. citizen, every time I've traveled to other countries in the past few years, it's always jarring going from the hospitable, friendly customs people in the other countries, to the literally rude awakening of getting practically accosted by the agents in the U.S. upon returning.

pjlegato 13y ago
Try Russia or Germany - neither country has border officials that could be described as "hospitable" or "friendly." They make US border guards look like teddy bears.
- jansen 13y ago
  I cannot speak for Russia, but Germany cultivates a fundamental mentality of liberalism and respect, for any kind. It will be very difficult to find someone in Germany that wears a badge who has less than 13 years of school education or acts unreasonably, disrespectful or doesn't play by the rules.
  - pjlegato 13y ago
    I didn't say they weren't respectful. I said they cannot be described as hospitable or friendly, which is true. German border guards are very professional and respectful -- they follow the rules exactly -- but they're not friendly. They're rather cold.
    - jansen 13y ago
      Fair enough. They are cold or better 'neutral'. I'd take cold and neutral any time over judgmental and degrading.
      - pjlegato 13y ago
        I've come into the US many times, and personally witnessed thousands of people being granted entry into the US with nothing but professionalism. Cases such as this are certainly rare. There will always be a few people in any large group who treat others badly, and US border guards are no exception. I'm sure we could find rare similar cases in Germany or anywhere else, too.

unreal37 13y ago

To play devil's advocate, he traveled to the U.S. with a guitar, had 5 shows booked in advance before his arrival, uses a pseudonym to perform and didn't declare any of this to the border officials. I think the article can also say he has a CD coming out soon. I can actually see why he was turned away. He's a musician, hoping to travel and do some shows in the U.S. for fun. You can't work in the U.S. without a work visa. The rules are pretty clear about that. And performing for free is still work.

jaeysin 13y ago
According to their rules, performing for free is acceptable: "participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating" http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  Tips are suddenly not payment?
- unreal37 13y ago
  Specifically denied is "paid performances, or any professional performance before a paying audience". If there was a cover charge to get in, it counts as work. http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html
  - jaeysin 13y ago
    I think they vagueness of this points to part of the problem. There is no real specification of what makes an amateur performer in a musical event. I would assume since he was not contracted to receive a payment for his performance, it would be acceptable. And just because there is a cover charge does not count as work. The cover charge is collected by the venue and does not mean he will get paid, which was specifically the case here.
MortenK 13y ago

jmduke 13y ago

America's border control system is so broken that it saddens me to see posts like this that reek of sensationalism (I mean, it's Vice) and hide the fact that, you know, he didn't have a valid visa. I'm having trouble understanding what was so deplorable about this story besides the reprehensible treatment by the officials (which, again, seems exaggerated)? Am I misreading the story or is refusal to enter the country not the proper response to not having the correct documentation?

machrider 13y ago
Do you need a visa to visit the US for a couple weeks? He did have a passport.
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  If he's German, then he can use ESTA if he qualifies for the Visa Waiver Program. But performing for compensation (tips + food) is probably technically work so that wouldn't help, and he'd need a work visa, like he says in the article.
philwelch 13y ago
> I'm having trouble understanding what was so deplorable about this story besides the reprehensible treatment by the officials (which, again, seems exaggerated)? "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
- jmduke 13y ago
  Right, but Abraham Lincoln did nothing wrong by going to the play and the author did something wrong (I don't mean in a moral sense, but in a sense of 'incorrect') by going to the United States without the proper visa.
  - philwelch 13y ago
    Well that's a tortured analogy if I've ever seen one.

fleitz 13y ago

I feel bad for the guy, but having been across the US border a few times it's important that if you're travelling for anything but spending money in the US you'd better phone and find out if you need a work visa. Volunteering? VISA. Working for free? VISA. Might ask someone for change? VISA. Speaking at a conference? VISA. Having coffee with someone and may discuss business? VISA. Friend might buy you a beer? VISA. You plan on bringing your bags to your hotel room yourself? VISA. Exceptions: If you are going straight to your hotel, then going to disneyland, going back to your hotel and back to the airport then you might not need a VISA, as long as you also know the flight number, airport, airline and seat number you'll be leaving the US on, then you might not need a VISA but should probably phone the consulate and find out anyway.

RWeaver 13y ago
I bet the tourism companies inside the USA are over the moon with where this is going.
MichaelGG 13y ago
First, it's visa, not VISA (which is the credit card company). Secondly, your examples are not correct. You're allowed to come over on visa waiver for business (it's one of the options to select), just not to perform work for compensation. You can certainly attend meetings.

RandallBrown 13y ago

I'm not sure what exactly happened, but this is what I gather from the translation. John was visiting the United States from London. He was planning on traveling through California with his girlfriend, then traveling through the south on his own, eventually meeting up with his aunt in Alabama. After landing, he had a problem in customs. He had a guitar with him and told the agent that he would be playing some shows in the US. He was then sent away from the US because he didn't have a work visa and he was here doing work. It sounds like this was a perfect storm of shitty situations. Take an overworked/stupid/bad (take your pick) security agent, someone who doesn't speak native english and may have had some trouble explaining his situation, an expired student visa (adds to confusion) and a weird "working" on vacation situation and you have a recipe for a bad time. It sucks.

nisa 13y ago
We don't know how good the translation is but I've read the article in German and there it clear that he studied in the US and presented a paper at a conference: http://www.euce.org/eusa/2011/papers/9d_farneti.pdf http://www.euce.org/eusa/2011/papers/9d_farneti.pdf. I'd say it was not a communication problem. Also: How did they know about his musician alias and his concert dates? From the article it looks like they read his emails. He could also have posted the dates for all to see on Facebook.
- ams6110 13y ago
  My bet is Facebook, or other web content promoting his performances. Easily found with a routine google search.

koalaman 13y ago

It's kind of neat the way that google translate includes the german accent.

zobzu 13y ago

Ive been at the border several times, non us citizen, and i've always been treated with respect. In fact, the guys at the border were always nice to me, sometimes dared a joke or asked me for help to translate something to someone else. So yeah, i'm sure there's horrible ones and troubles happen, but i wouldn't make that a generality just like that.

nraynaud 13y ago
Frankly, there is this nice guy in Toronto (a CBP agent at a pre-check thing), he scares me. He's always been nice (I mean chatting and stuff, recognizing me, trying to speak French, etc.), but I'm always afraid that I might give the wrong answer to a joke or something and hell would break lose. Maybe the probability is lower because he's also a foreigner there, but once is enough to change your life. I can't help but think about the Zone Libre checkpoints when I cross the US border.
jansen 13y ago
I am one of the lucky ones as well and have been treated with respect every time. Sometimes I even had insightful conversations with border control. However, along the increasing rejections of visa for highly talented people + more and more stories like this one are signaling a very very bad trend. I have noticed both among my peers: visa rejections for founders with funding from US investors, befriended founders who are being pulled into second screening every time they enter the country, my co-founder being rejected to enter the country once and now also being pulled into second screening every time (despite having an O1 visa). It's degrading and simply horrifying. And most definitely not a good trend for the US. This is a very emotional topic. I get sad and angry every time I read or hear a similar story.

MichaelGG 13y ago

Key point: "The result was that I was denied entry because I was on a business trip unannounced. The payment in the form of a warm meal at one of the shows in Nashville at a restaurant with ten tables is apparently illegal." Well, yeah, sorta. If you come to perform a task and be compensated they might construe that as work. I'm not sure what he means by privacy violations - if his name is Googled, are there no results for his stage name? Did he have nothing in his items with his stage name? It seems odd to just assume CBP agents are doing something secret when this seems like public data. I'm Canadian, and I was detained at the border as one CBP agent felt I needed a work visa (not just stating I'm there for business reasons) to represent my company at a tradeshow. (OTOH the unions at conference centers also agree that lifting a box or plugging in cables is work so...) Fortunately his supervisor disagreed.

adventured 13y ago

When you hire vastly too many enforcement employees (I'm lumping HS/TSA/etc all together here), what ends up happening is they find things to do. The reality is, TSA and Homeland Security have very little to do. The threat is not greater today than it was 20 years ago, but we've acquired tens of thousands of new personnel with absolutely nothing meaningful to do (and the tens of billions of dollars in costs to go with them). You see the same exact effect in traditional police, SWAT teams, and so on. All that ends up happening is they terrorize good people.

rickjames28 13y ago

Leftists (and rightists) need to stop being scared of the freaking world. And that includes internal politics. Stop scare-mongering everything if some park ranger in Idaho is furlod (sic). This whole freaking planet has become a paranoid (we trust government) freak fest. Forget about it. It just sucks. Why do you leftists that sympathesize with this guy vote for a socialist like Obama?

Gravityloss 13y ago

Why can't the police / border guards just treat these humans as humans. Ok, do what you must, return them to the originating country if they break some law. It's unfortunate when it is a cool thing for some to be "tough" like this?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

dude3 13y ago

As a Chinese citizen you can come into the US ridiculously pregnant and have your kid in the US on a tourist visa via a flight and never get hassled. You can walk across the southern border and create a human fence around ICE vans and get a slap on the wrist. The problem: This guy doesn't serve a political interest so he gets hassled. Face it, this country is backwards and caters only to the elite.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago
I'm just a bit confused: How are an expectant Chinese mother and a Mexican migrant worker examples of the elite?
- dude3 13y ago
  They are not the elite, they cater to the elite and special interests goals. China has 60 per cent of its $3.5tn foreign currency reserves invested in US assets. A housing program that offers green cards to foreigners who buy $500,000+ houses. How about the money going to US universities from 194,000 Chinese students. The $8.2 billion Chinese buyers spent in the 12 months to March 2013 of $70 billion on real estate. China will biggest economy in the world and we (USA) needs access. Migrant workers expand the population, provide cheap labor, and consumption A.K.A. grow the economy. They also vote.
  - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    So you think that the elite in the US _want_ more competition from rich Chinese people in the US real estate market? Pretty sure they'd rather have that to themselves. The connection between Chinese currency reserves and pregnant women giving birth in the US is... what, exactly? You think that the people buying those reserves (Central Committee / PSC) like the idea of their citizens holding dual US-Chinese citizenship? Riiiight. And if this US elite were so hot on immigration (and influential), the US immigration system wouldn't be so insanely restrictive. US policy is dictated by the lowest common denominator.
  - dude3 13y ago

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

This is what happens when soccer moms and helicopter dads run your country. Selfishness and paranoia rule the day, all behind the guise of good intentions, fairness, and security.

scelerat 13y ago

This sort of thing has happened a number of times recently to people I know. I'm a musician and have lots friends who play in bands and book shows, so this hits close to home. Last month a band from Canada I was scheduled to play with was stopped at the border and told to turn around because they didn't have work visas. This group of four women in their late teens and early twenties -- day jobs at bars and restaurants, driving a shitty 1980s chevy van -- might get some gas money at the gig -- which is basically a party in a warehouse -- and free PBRs from a cooler that the bands all share. This is not the sort of commerce that threatens jobs or the US economy. A musician I know just tried to go the legit route but failed to meet the artistic reputation standards of the Artist (o-1) Visa. US Immigration wanted newspaper and magazine reviews and proof of past shows at recognizable venues. If you're a small artist on a small label, you're not going to have those. You'll have chatter about you on blogs and twitter and facebook, you will have played at house parties, warehouses and bars, and you're on a small label website which, honestly, anyone could spoof to look legit. Nevertheless this guy is a real artist with a great record that a thousand people have bought. The shows he was going to play probably would have drawn capacity crowds at a handful of punk rock venues in the SF Bay and elsewhere. But he can't play or even come to the US because he's not "exceptional" enough. I have a friend who is on a student visa from a middle eastern country and presently doing the exact same thing as the OP: traveling around the US with a guitar and making friends. I sent this to him immediately with the instructions: "do not ever say you are playing a show. do not ever say you are a musician. if they ask you about the guitar, tell them you're learning how to play." As for the OP, he's just a student. He's not getting paid. Someone's cooking him dinner and giving him tips because that's what hospitable people do. Our immigration policies treat harmless people harshly and are absurd.

dec0dedab0de 13y ago
Absolutely. There really needs to be a treaty between all friendly countries that says artists are allowed as tourists as long as they don't make more than X amount of profit.
waqf 13y ago
> He's not getting paid. Someone's cooking him dinner and giving him tips because that's what hospitable people do. I agree, but if I were making the case to the INS I would phrase it differently: feeding someone who came to town specially isn't remunerating them, it's covering their expenses. And covering someone's expenses doesn't take money away from Americans who need jobs — because the American who didn't get the unpaid gig because this foreigner got it instead, is now sitting at home and consequently doesn't have travel expenses that need covering.

smoyer 13y ago

How many of these do I have to read ... this is my government and I DEMAND more from it. (Of course right now they've closed every office that might accomplish something visible). In the mean-time, I'd like to apologize to the citizens of earth for the horrible behavior of those performing in our security theater. EDIT: My trips to Germany were very pleasant ... with the exception of having to take goods through customs (for expediency's sake), everyone was pleasant, courteous and relatively efficient.

SonicSoul 13y ago

this site sucks so bad from a phone. every time i scroll i get some sort of context ad that covers half my screen. not you Vice.. not you :(

JackFr 13y ago

I suppose it might be google translate, but this seems like a guy lying on his visa application, being rudely called out on it, and letting his fierce sense of entitlement take over.

g8oz 13y ago

I'm interested in the fact that it seems that low level border flunkies have access to the email of anyone they're interested in for work violations. Not terrorism or anything. Another example of security state mission creep. Download all your emails now.