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Can Amazon develop a "21st century" payment system for its associate affiliates that doesn't involve receiving checks 4 months later? It's such a ridiculously o

by devx 13y ago

Can Amazon develop a "21st century" payment system for its associate affiliates that doesn't involve receiving checks 4 months later? It's such a ridiculously obsolete system for one of the biggest web/digital companies.

dingaling 13y ago
Yes that's anachronistic. As an Amazon Seller my receipts are disbursed directly into my bank account every two weeks ( though usually £0.00 as I only sell books casually ). I wonder if there are tax / legal reasons why they don't do that with affiliates?
simplekoala 13y ago
You think they are not technically savvy to understand that the system is obsolete. It is deliberate. They defer payments, so they can hold up the cash for a few weeks; This gives them a working cash-flow pipeline they can dip into. There is a technical term for it. Erudite folk on HN can throw more light on this practice. EDIT: I am not specifically sure what they do with affiliates. I am talking about the general principle they operate on - They typically delay paying their vendors/suppliers, so there is a delay-pipeline of cash flow which Wall-Street analysts deem as a good thing business wise.
- JoshTriplett 13y ago
  > There is a technical term for it. It's typically called the "float". Applies any time you receive a payment but take a while to pass it on.
  - jareau 13y ago
    Most payment companies aren't able to (due to regulations) do anything particularly high-yield with funds they steward for their merchants. The amount of float a company like Amazon is able to make may factor into their revenue model, but I imagine they hold on to funds more for regulatory and risk mitigation reasons.
    - _pius 13y ago
      MG Siegler and John Gruber engage in some fascinating speculation about how Amazon uses their float here: http://www.muleradio.net/thetalkshow/51/ http://www.muleradio.net/thetalkshow/51/ ... which was inspired, in part, by Eugene Wei's thoughts on how Amazon's float gives them leverage: http://www.eugenewei.com/blog/2012/11/28/amazon-and-margins http://www.eugenewei.com/blog/2012/11/28/amazon-and-margins
      - jareau 13y ago
        thanks for the links. I can't speculate at what their requirements are for affiliate payments. I only know the requirements Balanced is placed under as a PSP. I imagine Amazon must follow similar guidelines.
- oblio 13y ago
  So basically they are keeping "my" money to: a) use it in case of emegencies b) make more money (interest) Maybe a good business idea but still shady practice. Google's AdWords does the same.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- devx 13y ago
  Yes, I get why they wait the first 2 months before they even send the money (Google waits 23 days), but it takes at least as much afterwards with the sending and processing of the check, which has nothing to do with Amazon. They get nothing out of that in terms of cashflow, since they've already sent the money after 2 months. But as I said, it takes another 2-3 months, before I can actually have that money (on top of Amazon's first 2 months). So why can't they just send them to my credit card or bank account, like normal companies do, after those 2 months in which they hold the money? At least it would only take a week or a few days to get the money after that. I just don't see what Amazon has to gain by not partnering up with credit card companies. It's certainly a terrible deal for their affiliates. Not only do you get the money 2-3 months after Amazon sends it, but it's also like 10 percent fee, when the credit card company gets only like 3 percent. So yeah, I really don't get them here, and I think they're just being lazy, and used to the status quo.
acheron 13y ago
Any time the question is "Why is [financial thing] so cumbersome?" the answer is always going to be "government regulations".
- davidw 13y ago
  Except when it's things like "fraud".
  - mturmon 13y ago
    True, and don't leave out "greed" and "power". (a.k.a. float)
    - jareau 13y ago
      Never mistake for malice what can be explained by mere incompetence
tehwebguy 13y ago
Is the payout time really 4 months? I can't find it so far, still looking.
yummyfajitas 13y ago
Part of the waiting period is waiting to see if people return stuff. It's far easier to pay the correct amount 4 months later than to pay and then claw back payment (how?) when people return their purchases.
digikata 13y ago
Just listened to an interesting podcast on the banking ACH system by which money moves in the US. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episode-489-the-invisible-plumbing-of-our-economy http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episode-... In that podcast, they show money being transferred between UK bank accounts in a matter of seconds - which makes me wonder about some of the comments on HN re: the Amazon system not being offered in Europe. There must be differences between a fast money transfer system and a payment system? There was some speculation at the end regarding the lack of upgrade of the ACH system, and that large banks might not want competition with fees from other money transfer methods (e.g. wire tfrs).
snoonan 13y ago
Let's not forget about affiliate fraud and valid, legitimate refunds/returns/chargebacks. You really shouldn't get credit for your affiliate sales until Amazon is sure they're going to get to keep the money. We have an affiliate program and had to switch to 60 days (our chargeback window) because of credit card fraud. If it were not for this, I'd just as soon push out instant payments...

by devx 13y ago

dingaling 13y ago

Yes that's anachronistic. As an Amazon Seller my receipts are disbursed directly into my bank account every two weeks ( though usually £0.00 as I only sell books casually ). I wonder if there are tax / legal reasons why they don't do that with affiliates?

simplekoala 13y ago

You think they are not technically savvy to understand that the system is obsolete. It is deliberate. They defer payments, so they can hold up the cash for a few weeks; This gives them a working cash-flow pipeline they can dip into. There is a technical term for it. Erudite folk on HN can throw more light on this practice. EDIT: I am not specifically sure what they do with affiliates. I am talking about the general principle they operate on - They typically delay paying their vendors/suppliers, so there is a delay-pipeline of cash flow which Wall-Street analysts deem as a good thing business wise.

JoshTriplett 13y ago
> There is a technical term for it. It's typically called the "float". Applies any time you receive a payment but take a while to pass it on.
- jareau 13y ago
  Most payment companies aren't able to (due to regulations) do anything particularly high-yield with funds they steward for their merchants. The amount of float a company like Amazon is able to make may factor into their revenue model, but I imagine they hold on to funds more for regulatory and risk mitigation reasons.
  - _pius 13y ago
    MG Siegler and John Gruber engage in some fascinating speculation about how Amazon uses their float here: http://www.muleradio.net/thetalkshow/51/ http://www.muleradio.net/thetalkshow/51/ ... which was inspired, in part, by Eugene Wei's thoughts on how Amazon's float gives them leverage: http://www.eugenewei.com/blog/2012/11/28/amazon-and-margins http://www.eugenewei.com/blog/2012/11/28/amazon-and-margins
    - jareau 13y ago
      thanks for the links. I can't speculate at what their requirements are for affiliate payments. I only know the requirements Balanced is placed under as a PSP. I imagine Amazon must follow similar guidelines.
oblio 13y ago
So basically they are keeping "my" money to: a) use it in case of emegencies b) make more money (interest) Maybe a good business idea but still shady practice. Google's AdWords does the same.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
devx 13y ago
Yes, I get why they wait the first 2 months before they even send the money (Google waits 23 days), but it takes at least as much afterwards with the sending and processing of the check, which has nothing to do with Amazon. They get nothing out of that in terms of cashflow, since they've already sent the money after 2 months. But as I said, it takes another 2-3 months, before I can actually have that money (on top of Amazon's first 2 months). So why can't they just send them to my credit card or bank account, like normal companies do, after those 2 months in which they hold the money? At least it would only take a week or a few days to get the money after that. I just don't see what Amazon has to gain by not partnering up with credit card companies. It's certainly a terrible deal for their affiliates. Not only do you get the money 2-3 months after Amazon sends it, but it's also like 10 percent fee, when the credit card company gets only like 3 percent. So yeah, I really don't get them here, and I think they're just being lazy, and used to the status quo.

acheron 13y ago

Any time the question is "Why is [financial thing] so cumbersome?" the answer is always going to be "government regulations".

davidw 13y ago
Except when it's things like "fraud".
- mturmon 13y ago
  True, and don't leave out "greed" and "power". (a.k.a. float)
  - jareau 13y ago
    Never mistake for malice what can be explained by mere incompetence

tehwebguy 13y ago

Is the payout time really 4 months? I can't find it so far, still looking.

yummyfajitas 13y ago

Part of the waiting period is waiting to see if people return stuff. It's far easier to pay the correct amount 4 months later than to pay and then claw back payment (how?) when people return their purchases.

digikata 13y ago

Just listened to an interesting podcast on the banking ACH system by which money moves in the US. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episode-489-the-invisible-plumbing-of-our-economy http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episode-... In that podcast, they show money being transferred between UK bank accounts in a matter of seconds - which makes me wonder about some of the comments on HN re: the Amazon system not being offered in Europe. There must be differences between a fast money transfer system and a payment system? There was some speculation at the end regarding the lack of upgrade of the ACH system, and that large banks might not want competition with fees from other money transfer methods (e.g. wire tfrs).

snoonan 13y ago

Let's not forget about affiliate fraud and valid, legitimate refunds/returns/chargebacks. You really shouldn't get credit for your affiliate sales until Amazon is sure they're going to get to keep the money. We have an affiliate program and had to switch to 60 days (our chargeback window) because of credit card fraud. If it were not for this, I'd just as soon push out instant payments...