6 ms·

Could someone more familiar with U.S. laws explain why is it mandatory for federal employees not to work, even if they are unpaid? I'd imagine there are people

Could someone more familiar with U.S. laws explain why is it mandatory for federal employees not to work, even if they are unpaid? I'd imagine there are people who would rather continue with their side projects, research or other fun parts of the job rather than sit at home.

josephmosby 13y ago
If a federal employee is asked to do any work whatsoever by a supervisor when on furlough (i.e., not getting paid), the U.S. government could be sued for a violation of the 13th amendment. Making it illegal for federal employees to do any work whatsoever means that the government can place the charge back on an individual if they choose to work.
eli 13y ago
IANAL, but it's generally illegal for employers to permit employees to work without pay. The same way you can't legally "volunteer" to be paid less than minimum wage.
vonmoltke 13y ago
It comes down to an opinion by Jimmy Carter's second Attorney General, Benjamin Civiletti[1]. The gist of his opinion, which I need to find a better link for, is that since Congress has sole authority over the budget it is illegal for the government to spend money that was not preauthorized because it undermines Congress' authority. Furthermore, he cited some obscure statute as the reason volunteering to perform normally paid functions would be illegal. [1] http://www.npr.org/2011/04/08/135247483/who-raised-the-stakes-in-government-shutdown http://www.npr.org/2011/04/08/135247483/who-raised-the-stake... Edit: His opinion was based on a strict interpretation of the Antideficiency Act[2], the key provisions of which are: The Antideficiency Act prohibits federal employees from * making or authorizing an expenditure from, or creating or authorizing an obligation under, any appropriation or fund in excess of the amount available in the appropriation or fund unless authorized by law. 31 U.S.C. § 1341(a)(1)(A). * involving the government in any obligation to pay money before funds have been appropriated for that purpose, unless otherwise allowed by law. 31 U.S.C. § 1341(a)(1)(B). * accepting voluntary services for the United States, or employing personal services not authorized by law, except in cases of emergency involving the safety of human life or the protection of property. 31 U.S.C. § 1342. * making obligations or expenditures in excess of an apportionment or reapportionment, or in excess of the amount permitted by agency regulations. 31 U.S.C. § 1517(a). [2] http://www.gao.gov/legal/lawresources/antideficiencybackground.html http://www.gao.gov/legal/lawresources/antideficiencybackgrou...
caseysoftware 13y ago
A few reasons: First, they're unionized. Understandably, the union is against unpaid labor of any kind. It sets a precedent that is more problematic than anything. Second, we have a Federal minimum wage. You're not allowed to make less than that in a job. Therefore they would have to be paid something to still be in compliance with the law. Finally, while one person can go into an office without incurring massive costs, if you have an entire office come in, then you need to make sure receptionists, janitors, kitchen staff, parking attendants, etc are on the job.
- eli 13y ago
  Unions have nothing to do with it. Neither do costs. It's the law.
- Willwhatley 13y ago
  How do interns work? (In the general sense of compliance with the minimum wage statute.)
  - freehunter 13y ago
    Paid internships are generally above minimum wage. My lowest paid internship was $10/hr, highest was $15/hr. Interns, however, are not legally supposed to be doing production work or run-the-business kind of work. They're there as a learning experience similar to a classroom. They can do project work and attend meetings. Interns generally aren't classified as workers. They're getting experience in exchange for their time. The employer can't immediately gain from an intern's work. As long as the employer follows the guidelines of the intern regulations, they don't have to follow minimum wage or pay the intern at all (similar to how students don't get paid by their university for attending class).
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - abtinf 13y ago
    Unpaid internships are illegal[1]. Unless you are the government, in which case you exempt yourself from the law. [1] http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm
yardie 13y ago
You can't volunteer your labor for a for-profit or government agency[1]. It violates the Fair Labor Standards Act. And you're thinking under the assumption these employees are on a mandatory vacation. That isn't the case. They are all furloughed. Doing side projects and fun jobs doesn't guarantee them any compensation. In fact, to get the money from the missded days is going to require another act of Congress to authorize backpay. It's a really shitty time to be a government employee. [1]http://smallbusiness.chron.com/labor-laws-volunteering-workplace-25747.html http://smallbusiness.chron.com/labor-laws-volunteering-workp...
npsimons 13y ago
I work for the Navy (paycheck says DoD); when they furloughed us to 80% time, they told us they didn't want us working unpaid overtime because it would send the wrong message to upper management (that message being "hey, you can cut 20% of our budget and still get the same results!"). With the exception of the obvious mission critical support stuff (where shifts were rearranged), they wanted things like phones going unanswered. It makes sense to work "unpaid" overtime in a startup, or a business where it will advance your career or help you succeed. Unpaid overtime in the public sector is rarely rewarded; most who do it are really idealistic or just care about getting the job done. And while I love writing software, if they tell me I might be arrested for working on government code, I will just spend my extra time on my personal projects at home. Or hiking, climbing, playing music, etc. Once the furlough is over, I (and many others I know) will go back to putting in the unpaid hours to get the job done.
- gcb1 13y ago
  good insight on why not is not wise to work during the strike, but do not answer the "illegal" aspect mentioned in the "question"
  - npsimons 13y ago
    Fair point; I was mostly responding from my POV, and mostly to the second part. Yes, many of us in the government are geeks who love to code, and have to be threatened with arrest to not work overtime :) The law is the law, and it doesn't always make sense (or the conclusions that are arrived at via the law don't make always match up with "common sense"), but a lot of this is political anyway.

josephmosby 13y ago

If a federal employee is asked to do any work whatsoever by a supervisor when on furlough (i.e., not getting paid), the U.S. government could be sued for a violation of the 13th amendment. Making it illegal for federal employees to do any work whatsoever means that the government can place the charge back on an individual if they choose to work.

eli 13y ago

IANAL, but it's generally illegal for employers to permit employees to work without pay. The same way you can't legally "volunteer" to be paid less than minimum wage.

vonmoltke 13y ago

It comes down to an opinion by Jimmy Carter's second Attorney General, Benjamin Civiletti[1]. The gist of his opinion, which I need to find a better link for, is that since Congress has sole authority over the budget it is illegal for the government to spend money that was not preauthorized because it undermines Congress' authority. Furthermore, he cited some obscure statute as the reason volunteering to perform normally paid functions would be illegal. [1] http://www.npr.org/2011/04/08/135247483/who-raised-the-stakes-in-government-shutdown http://www.npr.org/2011/04/08/135247483/who-raised-the-stake... Edit: His opinion was based on a strict interpretation of the Antideficiency Act[2], the key provisions of which are: The Antideficiency Act prohibits federal employees from * making or authorizing an expenditure from, or creating or authorizing an obligation under, any appropriation or fund in excess of the amount available in the appropriation or fund unless authorized by law. 31 U.S.C. § 1341(a)(1)(A). * involving the government in any obligation to pay money before funds have been appropriated for that purpose, unless otherwise allowed by law. 31 U.S.C. § 1341(a)(1)(B). * accepting voluntary services for the United States, or employing personal services not authorized by law, except in cases of emergency involving the safety of human life or the protection of property. 31 U.S.C. § 1342. * making obligations or expenditures in excess of an apportionment or reapportionment, or in excess of the amount permitted by agency regulations. 31 U.S.C. § 1517(a). [2] http://www.gao.gov/legal/lawresources/antideficiencybackground.html http://www.gao.gov/legal/lawresources/antideficiencybackgrou...

caseysoftware 13y ago

A few reasons: First, they're unionized. Understandably, the union is against unpaid labor of any kind. It sets a precedent that is more problematic than anything. Second, we have a Federal minimum wage. You're not allowed to make less than that in a job. Therefore they would have to be paid something to still be in compliance with the law. Finally, while one person can go into an office without incurring massive costs, if you have an entire office come in, then you need to make sure receptionists, janitors, kitchen staff, parking attendants, etc are on the job.

eli 13y ago
Unions have nothing to do with it. Neither do costs. It's the law.
Willwhatley 13y ago
How do interns work? (In the general sense of compliance with the minimum wage statute.)
- freehunter 13y ago
  Paid internships are generally above minimum wage. My lowest paid internship was $10/hr, highest was $15/hr. Interns, however, are not legally supposed to be doing production work or run-the-business kind of work. They're there as a learning experience similar to a classroom. They can do project work and attend meetings. Interns generally aren't classified as workers. They're getting experience in exchange for their time. The employer can't immediately gain from an intern's work. As long as the employer follows the guidelines of the intern regulations, they don't have to follow minimum wage or pay the intern at all (similar to how students don't get paid by their university for attending class).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- abtinf 13y ago
  Unpaid internships are illegal[1]. Unless you are the government, in which case you exempt yourself from the law. [1] http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm

yardie 13y ago

You can't volunteer your labor for a for-profit or government agency[1]. It violates the Fair Labor Standards Act. And you're thinking under the assumption these employees are on a mandatory vacation. That isn't the case. They are all furloughed. Doing side projects and fun jobs doesn't guarantee them any compensation. In fact, to get the money from the missded days is going to require another act of Congress to authorize backpay. It's a really shitty time to be a government employee. [1]http://smallbusiness.chron.com/labor-laws-volunteering-workplace-25747.html http://smallbusiness.chron.com/labor-laws-volunteering-workp...

npsimons 13y ago

I work for the Navy (paycheck says DoD); when they furloughed us to 80% time, they told us they didn't want us working unpaid overtime because it would send the wrong message to upper management (that message being "hey, you can cut 20% of our budget and still get the same results!"). With the exception of the obvious mission critical support stuff (where shifts were rearranged), they wanted things like phones going unanswered. It makes sense to work "unpaid" overtime in a startup, or a business where it will advance your career or help you succeed. Unpaid overtime in the public sector is rarely rewarded; most who do it are really idealistic or just care about getting the job done. And while I love writing software, if they tell me I might be arrested for working on government code, I will just spend my extra time on my personal projects at home. Or hiking, climbing, playing music, etc. Once the furlough is over, I (and many others I know) will go back to putting in the unpaid hours to get the job done.

gcb1 13y ago
good insight on why not is not wise to work during the strike, but do not answer the "illegal" aspect mentioned in the "question"
- npsimons 13y ago
  Fair point; I was mostly responding from my POV, and mostly to the second part. Yes, many of us in the government are geeks who love to code, and have to be threatened with arrest to not work overtime :) The law is the law, and it doesn't always make sense (or the conclusions that are arrived at via the law don't make always match up with "common sense"), but a lot of this is political anyway.