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See my post in the other thread about living in Qatar. The exit visa is a system that legally enables indentured servitude. Any country that has this system (p

by joonix 13y ago

See my post in the other thread about living in Qatar. The exit visa is a system that legally enables indentured servitude. Any country that has this system (pretty much just Islamic mideast countries) should be shunned by the US and the UN (won't happen of course given the US has a couple of bases in Qatar and BP has a huge investment there).

vacri 13y ago
Given that the terms change from what the worker originally agreed to - for example, a lot of these work camps don't bother paying the workers, and freedom to roam is curtailed - it's more analagous to slavery than indentured servitude.
- camus 13y ago
  It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...
  - waps 13y ago
    Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punishments for violations), secondly, to work to exterminate slavery around them (e.g. purchasing slaves then freeing them). Little known fact, that second law is what lead to the introduction of hindu numerals in the west (Venetian merchants would purchase slaves, then free them after one voyage, in Venice. On of these joined a monastery, and taught the other monks (many things, mostly historical data, actually), on of whom wrote the Codex Vigilianus, which lead to the pope starting to use the numbers, which lead to ...) Islam encourages freeing slaves, but only in one circumstance : after they have completed a successful military campaign, to celebrate (and it's perfectly OK, to re-capture the freed slaves and force them to fight again later. In fact the prophet did this). Note that islam is also unique in that it actually says that it's OK for owners to just kill slaves (whereas in other law systems there has to be a reason. Like, say you can kill slaves for running away. Islam and specifically the second Caliphate is the only state in history that has a documented history of killing slaves for fun). So I'm wondering what the attitude is on this. If you seriously defend this point, you're effectively against every religion except Western-brand atheism (ie. not the -much more successful- socialist version of atheism), and Christianity. Let me just leave you with a quote from Winston Churchill "A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. " (Mohammedanism is the historical name for Islam) And do not take this as dissing islam, in fact pretty much every religion has slavery (in the sense of zero-compensation forced labour). "The west" is unique in opposing slavery and is still the only driving force behind the extermination of slavery, half-heartedly sort-of kind-of joined by India (the difference is that the west actually imposes trade sanctions against slavery-using states for using slavery whereas India refuses to do that. Within India, they're doing a good job fighting slavery though). As the article illustrates, the western fight against slavery has actually lost terrain in the last 2 decades. Mostly because islam-based law systems are pushing for re-introduction of slavery (in Saharan Africa, Sudan, Mali, the worst can be found. But it also happens in the Middle East and Asia). Today the situation is that Islam is regressing, and slavery is one of the consequences of that. Frankly I hope that a few states experience a few slave revolts. If Saudi Arabia were to be destroyed by it's (large majority) of almost-slaves, for example, that would do a LOT to eliminate slavery. Of course, like Holland before it, America is mostly on the side of the slavers in the name of stability.
    - jbooth 13y ago
      My usual take on these things is it's more about money and what you can get away with locally than the character of the religions themselves. Lots of very christian Americans had very christian outlooks on slavery being legal in the 1850s, and on unequal rights being the way of things (noah and ham) up until the 1960s. If I were looking for a religion that didn't have a history of justifying slavery, I'd point to maybe buddhism and taoism, maybe. Certainly none of the abrahamic religions (old testament) or hinduism.
      - levosmetalo 13y ago
        Well, there are different flavours of crhistianity as well as different flavours of islam. While christian Americans did indeed support slavery, the eastern (Orthodox) christianity was never involved in such behaviour. I'm pretty sure that not all islamic countries were openly supporting slavery, it's just the desert ones. That being said, I agree that it's more middle east phenomenon that islam phenomenon. The other poster also mentioned women rights as a part of islamic slavery. How is that different than, for example, Switzerland, where women got a right to vote only after black americans got it? And it's not like extremist christians treat their women in any way better, except they mostly allow only one woman per man.
        mike_esspe 13y ago
        Orthodox church supported serfdom, monasteries owned peasants.
        konstruktor 13y ago
        Women not being allowed to vote is actually an inherent flaw of democracy: Those who are allowed to vote decide who else may vote. All democratic countries make this kind of decision for many groups. Voting age, if and when immigrants may vote, whether to let people convicted of a felony or prisoners vote: all of these are cases of the voters deciding on who else will share their privilege. Switzerland was just slightly different because referendums are binding and were not overturned by the supreme courts, and the discriminated group was more visible/obvious.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Very much related. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars-world-cup-slaves http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars...
  - paganel 13y ago
    > Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world As an European (and football fan to boot) I'm more saddened that the latest issue of The Economist had a full inside-page ad for Qatar Airways, featuring Lionel Messi and a couple of other Barcelona stars, all mingled with "genuine" customers with a sheik or two thrown in for good measure.
skrebbel 13y ago
That would be https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6447108 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6447108
triplesec 13y ago
Plz can you link to "that other thread" for those of us not acquainted with it? (just that it's a good practice and experiences with search for such things are not always productive)

by joonix 13y ago

vacri 13y ago

Given that the terms change from what the worker originally agreed to - for example, a lot of these work camps don't bother paying the workers, and freedom to roam is curtailed - it's more analagous to slavery than indentured servitude.

camus 13y ago
It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...
- waps 13y ago
  Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punishments for violations), secondly, to work to exterminate slavery around them (e.g. purchasing slaves then freeing them). Little known fact, that second law is what lead to the introduction of hindu numerals in the west (Venetian merchants would purchase slaves, then free them after one voyage, in Venice. On of these joined a monastery, and taught the other monks (many things, mostly historical data, actually), on of whom wrote the Codex Vigilianus, which lead to the pope starting to use the numbers, which lead to ...) Islam encourages freeing slaves, but only in one circumstance : after they have completed a successful military campaign, to celebrate (and it's perfectly OK, to re-capture the freed slaves and force them to fight again later. In fact the prophet did this). Note that islam is also unique in that it actually says that it's OK for owners to just kill slaves (whereas in other law systems there has to be a reason. Like, say you can kill slaves for running away. Islam and specifically the second Caliphate is the only state in history that has a documented history of killing slaves for fun). So I'm wondering what the attitude is on this. If you seriously defend this point, you're effectively against every religion except Western-brand atheism (ie. not the -much more successful- socialist version of atheism), and Christianity. Let me just leave you with a quote from Winston Churchill "A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. " (Mohammedanism is the historical name for Islam) And do not take this as dissing islam, in fact pretty much every religion has slavery (in the sense of zero-compensation forced labour). "The west" is unique in opposing slavery and is still the only driving force behind the extermination of slavery, half-heartedly sort-of kind-of joined by India (the difference is that the west actually imposes trade sanctions against slavery-using states for using slavery whereas India refuses to do that. Within India, they're doing a good job fighting slavery though). As the article illustrates, the western fight against slavery has actually lost terrain in the last 2 decades. Mostly because islam-based law systems are pushing for re-introduction of slavery (in Saharan Africa, Sudan, Mali, the worst can be found. But it also happens in the Middle East and Asia). Today the situation is that Islam is regressing, and slavery is one of the consequences of that. Frankly I hope that a few states experience a few slave revolts. If Saudi Arabia were to be destroyed by it's (large majority) of almost-slaves, for example, that would do a LOT to eliminate slavery. Of course, like Holland before it, America is mostly on the side of the slavers in the name of stability.
  - jbooth 13y ago
    My usual take on these things is it's more about money and what you can get away with locally than the character of the religions themselves. Lots of very christian Americans had very christian outlooks on slavery being legal in the 1850s, and on unequal rights being the way of things (noah and ham) up until the 1960s. If I were looking for a religion that didn't have a history of justifying slavery, I'd point to maybe buddhism and taoism, maybe. Certainly none of the abrahamic religions (old testament) or hinduism.
    - levosmetalo 13y ago
      Well, there are different flavours of crhistianity as well as different flavours of islam. While christian Americans did indeed support slavery, the eastern (Orthodox) christianity was never involved in such behaviour. I'm pretty sure that not all islamic countries were openly supporting slavery, it's just the desert ones. That being said, I agree that it's more middle east phenomenon that islam phenomenon. The other poster also mentioned women rights as a part of islamic slavery. How is that different than, for example, Switzerland, where women got a right to vote only after black americans got it? And it's not like extremist christians treat their women in any way better, except they mostly allow only one woman per man.
      - mike_esspe 13y ago
        Orthodox church supported serfdom, monasteries owned peasants.
      - konstruktor 13y ago
        Women not being allowed to vote is actually an inherent flaw of democracy: Those who are allowed to vote decide who else may vote. All democratic countries make this kind of decision for many groups. Voting age, if and when immigrants may vote, whether to let people convicted of a felony or prisoners vote: all of these are cases of the voters deciding on who else will share their privilege. Switzerland was just slightly different because referendums are binding and were not overturned by the supreme courts, and the discriminated group was more visible/obvious.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  Very much related. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars-world-cup-slaves http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars...
- paganel 13y ago
  > Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world As an European (and football fan to boot) I'm more saddened that the latest issue of The Economist had a full inside-page ad for Qatar Airways, featuring Lionel Messi and a couple of other Barcelona stars, all mingled with "genuine" customers with a sheik or two thrown in for good measure.

skrebbel 13y ago

That would be https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6447108 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6447108

triplesec 13y ago

Plz can you link to "that other thread" for those of us not acquainted with it? (just that it's a good practice and experiences with search for such things are not always productive)