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Yet Germany has institutionalized the same mentality on a more abstract level. "Global warming might be happening, shut down the energy industry!" "We can't u

Yet Germany has institutionalized the same mentality on a more abstract level. "Global warming might be happening, shut down the energy industry!" "We can't use nuclear power, someone might get cancer! Keep mining coal and etching solar panels!"

pavs 13y ago
They are not even remotely the same thing.
pzuraq 13y ago
That's a ridiculous comparison, The fact of the matter is that those decisions are completely logical. Whether or not global warming is happening, we will run out of fossil fuels and fissionable material eventually. Solar is renewable, self sustaining. By building out solar Germany is reducing there dependence on foreign countries and securing there future; Possibly helping to reduce global warming is just icing on the cake.
- Nicholas_C 13y ago
  >That's a ridiculous comparison, The fact of the matter is that those decisions are completely logical. I don't think shutting down an entire industry in a knee jerk reaction is logical. Gently paring down fossil fuel energy consumption is logical. I think the extreme reaction is the illogical mentality that he was talking about.
  - pzuraq 13y ago
    It's more than a knee jerk reaction though, there are a lot of reasons to speed up the switch to solar and renewables. Global warming may have been a catalyst, but it was going to happen eventually and they figured sooner rather than later.
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      Yes, but if you want to do something about global warming it'd be a lot smarter to keep the nuclear power stations running and take coal plants offline instead. Nuclear power has a spotty safety record overall, and the consequences of a mistake can be acutely disastrous, but coal is likewise a chronic disaster.
      - dmd 13y ago
        > Nuclear power has a spotty safety record overall This is so incredibly false it's on par with stating "commercial aviation has a spotty safety record overall".
        anigbrowl 13y ago
        I disagree. There have been lots of low-level safety violations, and it's easy to find examples of chronic mismanagement. By 'spotty' I mean lots of small flaws, a few big ones here and there. Certainly, it has a good low ratio of deaths per megawatt of power generated, but such metrics are not the whole story. I'm very pro-nuclear, but don't think there's an mileage in blowing off safety concerns.
      - pzuraq 13y ago
        Agreed, I'm all for nuclear power personally and that is a somewhat less logical position, but the irrational fear of nuclear power is more of a worldwide phenomenon than a German one. All I'm saying is I think comparing American fear-culture to Germany's decision to quickly move to solar is at best apples to oranges and at worst completely nonsensical.
    - specialist 13y ago
      First mover advantage. Germany's early embrace is going to look pretty smart, in retrospect. Ditto Google's early drive for lowering watts per flop in their data centers and seeking lower costs of energy. GDP (economic growth, however it's measured) has tracked fossil fuel consumption. Some smart people are working to decouple the two.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Solar is renewable, self sustaining The sun is, but what about the raw materials needed to make the panels?
  - VladRussian2 13y ago
    >The sun is, but what about the raw materials needed to make the panels? like silicon?
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      Solar energy technologies, for example, will require half the current world supply of tellurium and 25% of the supply of indium, the report says. http://www.euractiv.com/sustainability/rare-earth-shortage-hamper-clean-news-508967 http://www.euractiv.com/sustainability/rare-earth-shortage-h...
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    Solar panels do have some low-reserve raw-materials requirements. CSP (concentrated solar thermal power) rather less so, though it has higher costs and isn't as easily deployed widely (PV can be installed pretty much on any existing structure, CSP generally requires its own dedication installations). Though really, all this says is that even under a renewables scheme, we're not going to be able to provide power at the level some have come to expect for the population we've now got (7 billion) or are projected to have (10 billion). The bigger problem from my PoV is that the existing financial and economic systems discount the sustainability capabilities of even a partial capacity provided by renewables to the point that little if any of it gets built -- the biggest hazard I and some others (Gail Tverberg is a pretty notable leading voice, Richard Heinberg another) see is that the financial and economic systems collapse well before energy or other limits fully impose themselves. And yes, others note that renewables as presently envisioned draw heavily on nonrenewables for fabrication and construction: https://www.readability.com/articles/oqtyksza https://www.readability.com/articles/oqtyksza http://www.countercurrents.org/adair301110.htm http://www.countercurrents.org/adair301110.htm The fact that providing energy needs under a renewables basis is going to be really hard doesn't make nonrenewables any better -- they're only going to work until they don't and we fall off a cliff. What's your suggestion.

pavs 13y ago

They are not even remotely the same thing.

pzuraq 13y ago

That's a ridiculous comparison, The fact of the matter is that those decisions are completely logical. Whether or not global warming is happening, we will run out of fossil fuels and fissionable material eventually. Solar is renewable, self sustaining. By building out solar Germany is reducing there dependence on foreign countries and securing there future; Possibly helping to reduce global warming is just icing on the cake.

Nicholas_C 13y ago
>That's a ridiculous comparison, The fact of the matter is that those decisions are completely logical. I don't think shutting down an entire industry in a knee jerk reaction is logical. Gently paring down fossil fuel energy consumption is logical. I think the extreme reaction is the illogical mentality that he was talking about.
- pzuraq 13y ago
  It's more than a knee jerk reaction though, there are a lot of reasons to speed up the switch to solar and renewables. Global warming may have been a catalyst, but it was going to happen eventually and they figured sooner rather than later.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    Yes, but if you want to do something about global warming it'd be a lot smarter to keep the nuclear power stations running and take coal plants offline instead. Nuclear power has a spotty safety record overall, and the consequences of a mistake can be acutely disastrous, but coal is likewise a chronic disaster.
    - dmd 13y ago
      > Nuclear power has a spotty safety record overall This is so incredibly false it's on par with stating "commercial aviation has a spotty safety record overall".
      - anigbrowl 13y ago
        I disagree. There have been lots of low-level safety violations, and it's easy to find examples of chronic mismanagement. By 'spotty' I mean lots of small flaws, a few big ones here and there. Certainly, it has a good low ratio of deaths per megawatt of power generated, but such metrics are not the whole story. I'm very pro-nuclear, but don't think there's an mileage in blowing off safety concerns.
    - pzuraq 13y ago
      Agreed, I'm all for nuclear power personally and that is a somewhat less logical position, but the irrational fear of nuclear power is more of a worldwide phenomenon than a German one. All I'm saying is I think comparing American fear-culture to Germany's decision to quickly move to solar is at best apples to oranges and at worst completely nonsensical.
  - specialist 13y ago
    First mover advantage. Germany's early embrace is going to look pretty smart, in retrospect. Ditto Google's early drive for lowering watts per flop in their data centers and seeking lower costs of energy. GDP (economic growth, however it's measured) has tracked fossil fuel consumption. Some smart people are working to decouple the two.
sliverstorm 13y ago
Solar is renewable, self sustaining The sun is, but what about the raw materials needed to make the panels?
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  >The sun is, but what about the raw materials needed to make the panels? like silicon?
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Solar energy technologies, for example, will require half the current world supply of tellurium and 25% of the supply of indium, the report says. http://www.euractiv.com/sustainability/rare-earth-shortage-hamper-clean-news-508967 http://www.euractiv.com/sustainability/rare-earth-shortage-h...
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  Solar panels do have some low-reserve raw-materials requirements. CSP (concentrated solar thermal power) rather less so, though it has higher costs and isn't as easily deployed widely (PV can be installed pretty much on any existing structure, CSP generally requires its own dedication installations). Though really, all this says is that even under a renewables scheme, we're not going to be able to provide power at the level some have come to expect for the population we've now got (7 billion) or are projected to have (10 billion). The bigger problem from my PoV is that the existing financial and economic systems discount the sustainability capabilities of even a partial capacity provided by renewables to the point that little if any of it gets built -- the biggest hazard I and some others (Gail Tverberg is a pretty notable leading voice, Richard Heinberg another) see is that the financial and economic systems collapse well before energy or other limits fully impose themselves. And yes, others note that renewables as presently envisioned draw heavily on nonrenewables for fabrication and construction: https://www.readability.com/articles/oqtyksza https://www.readability.com/articles/oqtyksza http://www.countercurrents.org/adair301110.htm http://www.countercurrents.org/adair301110.htm The fact that providing energy needs under a renewables basis is going to be really hard doesn't make nonrenewables any better -- they're only going to work until they don't and we fall off a cliff. What's your suggestion.