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Offtopic. That link is incredibly scary. On what basis does Europe justify making an incorrect opinion illegal? And why that opinion, specifically? Why not

by throwit1979 13y ago

Offtopic. That link is incredibly scary. On what basis does Europe justify making an incorrect opinion illegal? And why that opinion, specifically? Why not criminalize a belief in God, or alien visitation?

widdershins 13y ago
Because that incorrect belief tries to erase and cover up the murder of millions of people. I'm not sure if that's right, but that is the motivation.
jbooth 13y ago
At a specific time and place in 1945 this law makes a ton of sense, and it's actually done a lot of good. Compare german - european relations with japanese - chinese/korean/filipino relations. Maybe it should have a sunset provision for the sake of free speech, although I don't think you'll find many MPs signing up to sponsor that bill.
carlob 13y ago
It's not as simple as that: think about libel laws: if I say that you've stolen something, or that you've killed something and I actively try to ruin your reputation, then my 'opinion' of you is actually very damaging. The same goes for holocaust denial, those who deny the death of millions of people risk repeating history, thus making their 'opinion' dangerous for society at large.
- throwit1979 13y ago
  But you're not harming a living human being. At worst, you're minimizing a memory, which is a fundamantally emotional position. As to the risk of repeating history: Anyone positing the holocaust didn't happen is competing in a marketplace of ideas where the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary. Not to mention fierce competition from the European equivalent to K-12 education. It seems to me akin to criminalizing street vendors selling hot dogs made of ( sterilized, to minimize health counterarguments ) toe jam and ear wax. Very very few people are going to become customers. Except it's much worse, because you are criminalizing ideas.
  - claudius 13y ago
    I doubt you’d be allowed to sell stuff made from toe jam and ear wax for human consumption in most of Europe. Or, even if you were allowed to sell that stuff, you’d need a proper certificate, health and sanitary checks and ensure that your product is indeed safe.
  - wslh 13y ago
    Anyone positing the holocaust didn't happen is competing in a marketplace of ideas where the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary. You can't believe a country like Germany with one of the strongest cultural and scientific traditions could have accept genocide of such magnitude.
    - moocowduckquack 13y ago
      Coming from the UK and having looked into the history of some of my country's behaviour during the height of empire, I have no problem believing that in the slightest. Peccavi.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    > But you're not harming a living human being. Are you not? It would seem to pretty clearly defame everyone who have made claims to have witnessed holocaust and been in concentration camps. And in fact, holocaust denial is often explicitly framed in a way where defamation is a substantial part of the intent. So yes, you are harming living human beings even if we ignore the > As to the risk of repeating history: Anyone positing the holocaust didn't happen is competing in a marketplace of ideas where the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary. Not to mention fierce competition from the European equivalent to K-12 education. The rise of the nazis happened in a situation where it was competing in a marketplace of ideas where a substantial majority of the population o the countries involved had first hand experience with the effects of World War I, and despite that the nazi's still succeeded in getting enough support in elections to be able to form an elected government. The nazi rise to power was a horrific demonstration of just how easy it is to ignore history even when the knowledge is widespread. I'm not even decided on whether or not these bans are necessary, but not out of any kind of fantasy belief that these kind of ideas can't gain support again. There's more than enough surveys demonstrating scary numbers of people doubt facts that are disputed by far less dedicated crackpots than holocaust denials to the extent that it is hardly a defensible position to claim that current education systems are sufficient to prevent obviously wrong ideas from gaining substantial support. > It seems to me akin to criminalizing street vendors selling hot dogs made of ( sterilized, to minimize health counterarguments ) toe jam and ear wax. And that is, indeed, likely illegal pretty much everywhere and certainly in Europe. If your product does not prominently state that it is toe jam and ear wax, and in any way present it as hot dogs, you'd go down for misleading advertising and likely for fraud. And regardless of that, chances are high you'd be on the hook for health and safety violations. So that's not a very good example.
scotty79 13y ago
I think it's because social perception of history is volatile and some experiences came at so much cost that they ought to be remembered correctly.
booboo2 13y ago
It's not about an "incorrect opinion" though, it's about active proliferation of the lie.
vidarh 13y ago
A substantial part of the justification is that allowing the resurgence of support for nazism is seen as posing a direct risk of genocide and war, and a such a substantial threat to the rights of others. This was further shaped by the experience that the nazi rise to power was propelled by widespread popular support both in Germany and elsewhere, despite the millions that died in World War I just a couple of decades earlier. In comparison, the limited harm done to people who have their speech restricted is seen as a relatively minor tradeoff.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
aet 13y ago
It's not an opinion. For example, the world is flat, not an opinion.
icecreampain 13y ago
The funny part is that its a specific opinion, also. Questioning the existence of the Holodomor, for example, even though it conservatively resulted in the deaths of 7 million people in one single year, more than the whole "6 million jews in 6 years" thing, is not illegal. In fact most people in Europe are blissfully unaware of the Holodomor at all. Or of Stalin's and Mao's murdered millions. Strange, yes?
- wslh 13y ago
  What is your point? Do you think that the Armenian genocide, together with other genocides should be added to the undeniable things or do you think that the Holocaust denial laws must be "deprecated"?
  - icecreampain 13y ago
    I wish for no thought crimes at all.
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  The laws vary, but in many of these countries, such as the Czech Republic, France, Hungary, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland and Switzerland, denying those acts would also be illegal and they are far from blissfully unaware of the impact of Stalin and Mao. edit - if you are going to post on the subject of the legal positions on political denial of events, then it helps to do some research to check that you are not actually talking bollocks yourself.
  - icecreampain 13y ago
    I've looked it up real quick but I can't see the Holodomor being illegal to deny in any other country other than the Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Holodomor_denial_and_Ukrainian_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Holodo... Or are you talking about something else?
    - 13y ago

widdershins 13y ago

Because that incorrect belief tries to erase and cover up the murder of millions of people. I'm not sure if that's right, but that is the motivation.

jbooth 13y ago

At a specific time and place in 1945 this law makes a ton of sense, and it's actually done a lot of good. Compare german - european relations with japanese - chinese/korean/filipino relations. Maybe it should have a sunset provision for the sake of free speech, although I don't think you'll find many MPs signing up to sponsor that bill.

carlob 13y ago

It's not as simple as that: think about libel laws: if I say that you've stolen something, or that you've killed something and I actively try to ruin your reputation, then my 'opinion' of you is actually very damaging. The same goes for holocaust denial, those who deny the death of millions of people risk repeating history, thus making their 'opinion' dangerous for society at large.

throwit1979 13y ago
But you're not harming a living human being. At worst, you're minimizing a memory, which is a fundamantally emotional position. As to the risk of repeating history: Anyone positing the holocaust didn't happen is competing in a marketplace of ideas where the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary. Not to mention fierce competition from the European equivalent to K-12 education. It seems to me akin to criminalizing street vendors selling hot dogs made of ( sterilized, to minimize health counterarguments ) toe jam and ear wax. Very very few people are going to become customers. Except it's much worse, because you are criminalizing ideas.
- claudius 13y ago
  I doubt you’d be allowed to sell stuff made from toe jam and ear wax for human consumption in most of Europe. Or, even if you were allowed to sell that stuff, you’d need a proper certificate, health and sanitary checks and ensure that your product is indeed safe.
- wslh 13y ago
  Anyone positing the holocaust didn't happen is competing in a marketplace of ideas where the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary. You can't believe a country like Germany with one of the strongest cultural and scientific traditions could have accept genocide of such magnitude.
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    Coming from the UK and having looked into the history of some of my country's behaviour during the height of empire, I have no problem believing that in the slightest. Peccavi.
- vidarh 13y ago
  > But you're not harming a living human being. Are you not? It would seem to pretty clearly defame everyone who have made claims to have witnessed holocaust and been in concentration camps. And in fact, holocaust denial is often explicitly framed in a way where defamation is a substantial part of the intent. So yes, you are harming living human beings even if we ignore the > As to the risk of repeating history: Anyone positing the holocaust didn't happen is competing in a marketplace of ideas where the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary. Not to mention fierce competition from the European equivalent to K-12 education. The rise of the nazis happened in a situation where it was competing in a marketplace of ideas where a substantial majority of the population o the countries involved had first hand experience with the effects of World War I, and despite that the nazi's still succeeded in getting enough support in elections to be able to form an elected government. The nazi rise to power was a horrific demonstration of just how easy it is to ignore history even when the knowledge is widespread. I'm not even decided on whether or not these bans are necessary, but not out of any kind of fantasy belief that these kind of ideas can't gain support again. There's more than enough surveys demonstrating scary numbers of people doubt facts that are disputed by far less dedicated crackpots than holocaust denials to the extent that it is hardly a defensible position to claim that current education systems are sufficient to prevent obviously wrong ideas from gaining substantial support. > It seems to me akin to criminalizing street vendors selling hot dogs made of ( sterilized, to minimize health counterarguments ) toe jam and ear wax. And that is, indeed, likely illegal pretty much everywhere and certainly in Europe. If your product does not prominently state that it is toe jam and ear wax, and in any way present it as hot dogs, you'd go down for misleading advertising and likely for fraud. And regardless of that, chances are high you'd be on the hook for health and safety violations. So that's not a very good example.

scotty79 13y ago

I think it's because social perception of history is volatile and some experiences came at so much cost that they ought to be remembered correctly.

booboo2 13y ago

It's not about an "incorrect opinion" though, it's about active proliferation of the lie.

vidarh 13y ago

A substantial part of the justification is that allowing the resurgence of support for nazism is seen as posing a direct risk of genocide and war, and a such a substantial threat to the rights of others. This was further shaped by the experience that the nazi rise to power was propelled by widespread popular support both in Germany and elsewhere, despite the millions that died in World War I just a couple of decades earlier. In comparison, the limited harm done to people who have their speech restricted is seen as a relatively minor tradeoff.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

aet 13y ago

It's not an opinion. For example, the world is flat, not an opinion.

icecreampain 13y ago

The funny part is that its a specific opinion, also. Questioning the existence of the Holodomor, for example, even though it conservatively resulted in the deaths of 7 million people in one single year, more than the whole "6 million jews in 6 years" thing, is not illegal. In fact most people in Europe are blissfully unaware of the Holodomor at all. Or of Stalin's and Mao's murdered millions. Strange, yes?

wslh 13y ago
What is your point? Do you think that the Armenian genocide, together with other genocides should be added to the undeniable things or do you think that the Holocaust denial laws must be "deprecated"?
- icecreampain 13y ago
  I wish for no thought crimes at all.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
The laws vary, but in many of these countries, such as the Czech Republic, France, Hungary, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland and Switzerland, denying those acts would also be illegal and they are far from blissfully unaware of the impact of Stalin and Mao. edit - if you are going to post on the subject of the legal positions on political denial of events, then it helps to do some research to check that you are not actually talking bollocks yourself.
- icecreampain 13y ago
  I've looked it up real quick but I can't see the Holodomor being illegal to deny in any other country other than the Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Holodomor_denial_and_Ukrainian_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Holodo... Or are you talking about something else?
  - 13y ago