5 ms·

IOS productivity app market on the cusp of change?

43 points by ananddass 13y ago

krmmalik 13y ago
A really good assessment of the situation. I really enjoyed the qltv and qtv analysis - but this being HN part of me was hoping there was an actual solution. For me personally, the keyboard is the most frustrating, second to lack of cross-app integration.
- ananddass 13y ago
  Yes. The keyboard problem is a big one. It was so painful that I had to buy a bluetooth keyboard just to work with my iPad. That's a hard one to solve until apple comes up with something better user input device. (e.g. thalmic labs, leap motion etc). After I bought my keyboard, the next problem I hit was the inter-app communication issue you raised. That's a software problem and solvable.
  - krmmalik 13y ago
    Is there a particular bluetooth keyboard you recommend?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
aroman 13y ago
I agree with the statements presented by the article (i.e doing real work on iOS sucks), but I don't really see what the title of the article has to do with its content. What led them to draw the conclusion that the productivity app market is on the "cusp of change"? I see only an explanation that the market has a systemic and fundamental problem -- not that there is any definable change in sight.
- ananddass 13y ago
  Sorry, I should have added more references in that connected the dots better. A lot of capital and talent is flowing into solving the problem. Thus, we are likely to see some big shifts. --$4 billion invested into "business/office" software on iOS since 2010 http://readwrite.com/2013/06/25/a-new-golden-age-of-productivity-software-is-dawning#awesm=~odhsmjHc92SgR7 http://readwrite.com/2013/06/25/a-new-golden-age-of-producti... --Mailbox's exit to Dropbox --Quip openly calling for a change to the word processor https://quip.com/blog/introducing-quip https://quip.com/blog/introducing-quip
  - aroman 13y ago
    Ah, thanks for the followup. So basically the point is that people are recognizing the problem isn't just a growing pain of early mobile adoption, but rather is a serious and fundamental problem that needs lots of money and effort to tackle (but which offers correspondingly massive rewards, they expect).
  - jimbokun 13y ago
    "--Mailbox's exit to Dropbox" This article puts into perspective why this could be a potentially huge strategic play. If you can convince people to use MailBox as their client, saving every attachment to DropBox by default, and continuing to push for DropBox integration in other iOS apps, DropBox could become the unofficial file system of iOS and the solution to the "complex workflows" cited in the article.
Ethan_Mick 13y ago
I feel that the article highlights an interesting problem, with some good insights. For me, building a productivity app that charges perhaps, $5-$10, may be worth it. But it would have to solve the entire problem, not just one step of their flow diagram. I can't make an app that is good at just editing the document, I should also include the other essential steps the user needs to do once done editing (or before). But this adds to the complexity... Also, I figured small screen size would be a bigger issue, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
AsymetricCom 13y ago
Productivity will only become better once users regain control of their hardware. Apple will only let its customers be a fraction as productive as they are internally.
erso 13y ago
I found this article completely unreadable due to Helvetica Neue Light body font. The Helvetica Neue Ultra Light header is also ridiculously unreadable.
msie 13y ago
inkmobility.com is selling developer products that may solve some of the pain points that they talk about.
unknownian 13y ago
I'm unsympathetic. The only thing that held back non-Apple mobile platforms was the app ecosystem. The Play Store has definitely caught up with the App Store. Even if you don't think it does, the versatility of Android really does beat that of iOS. iOS isn't going anywhere for the general populace, but I see little benefit for its use in the tech community. I'm not one of those "iOS is a toy for idiots" detractors, but not even iOS7 delivered on some really requested features. If we have to pine every year for Apple to build something bloggers keep asking for, is this the kind of model for a software platform that we want?
- rimantas 13y ago
  What did Ford say about people wanting the faster horse?
  - unknownian 13y ago
    People are more knowledgeable now; Apple isn't always right.
orky56 13y ago
To get someone to pay, you need to prey on their impulses. Games accomplish this with instant gratification and addiction. For productivity apps, people can justify a purchase because their productivity is worth at the least that price. These are typically pay per downloads and then involve a user to switch to a completely new system. I wouldn't be surprised if engagement & retention are very low despite these high revenues. Disclaimer: I'm working on a productivity app.
- ananddass 13y ago
  Curious as to why would engagement and retention be low? As regard's pay per download models...looks like "Attach" business model's are becoming more popular. "Attach" means charging for something outside of the app store. Dropbox, Uber, Square all do it. I remember seeing a Chris Dixon post about this on HN a few months ago.
  - mturmon 13y ago
    I have several of the pay-for-use productivity apps mentioned, and my experience was like the parent comment said. Initially got the app to fix a problem (content creation/editing is difficult on an all-touch device). But just fooled around a little and never really got engaged. I still do that stuff on my laptop. My take-away was that I wanted precise pointing and a keyboard and a big screen for those tasks, because I'm fussy about the results. But like a lot of the HN audience, I'm not very typical, so my experience may mean little ;-). Regarding payment model, payment wasn't the issue. It was functionality.
    - orky56 13y ago
      Every experience means a lot! People seem to be very purchase-friendly when it comes to mobile these days even though from a productivity standpoint, most work is still done on laptops/desktops. You need that larger screen, tactile input, etc., in order to complete complex tasks that involve switching among various tasks that require more than swipes and taps.
goronbjorn 13y ago
The font in this post isn't legible at all.
- ananddass 13y ago
  Yikes. Fixed the fonts to make it more readable.
drcode 13y ago
iOS gives priority to ease of learning over efficient workflow for power users. I agree this gave them a HUGE advantage early on, but as users become more sophisticated in using mobile devices this "priority to beginners" philosophy is going to let Android slowly eat their lunch.
- uams 13y ago
  iOS7 is already doing that. It's switching from skeuomorphic buttons to just typography. This doesn't address your larger point, given that the switch to lines doesn't mean that they're bringing advanced functionality yet, but it's a sign that they are willing to trade away easy of learning.
napoleoncomplex 13y ago
The displayed workflow is horrendous. And that's just one aspect of the sub-par experience of doing "real work" on pure touch screen devices. The poll sums it all up nicely. What users want is real multitasking, a keyboard, and features that are on a desktop. Seems pretty clear that the users don't want an iOS/Android device, they want a laptop/desktop with a real OS. No app can solve that, no matter how much funding it gets.
- rimantas 13y ago
  > and features that are on a desktop Just like I want my sport car to be able to pull the plough.
- drewying 13y ago
  Isn't this the dream of the Microsoft Surface and similar tablets? Give them multitasking, a keyboard case, and boom instant productivity. I personally just think it comes down to screen real estate. Small screens are hard to do anything productive. I still remember trying to type up a paper in college on an Acer netbook. Even with a full "laptop experience", it was a horrible and scarring experience.
  - ananddass 13y ago
    So one of the things interviewees mentioned is that there was a difference between "micro moments" and "full blown work". Writing a paper is full blown work that they know they cant do on a mobile device. But they expected a lot of the micro-moments to work.
  - phaus 13y ago
    One of Microsoft's biggest failures is that the keyboard is useless unless you're sitting at a table. I wanted a surface pro, until the keyboard covers were revealed. I suspect that most people who really wanted a hardware keyboard (lots of people don't even want them) for a mobile device will agree with me when I say that if your keyboard case requires a table in order to be used, then you may as well not even have bothered to try. I purchased a Clamcase Pro for my Ipad, and it's absolutely amazing. I have fairly large hands, but I can still type on the device in a manner that's completely natural and comfortable, at about 90wpm. I've used several different netbooks, and they all felt cramped in comparison. So far, I've completed dozens of essays and reports on the device. I even use it for some light web development. The best part, however, is that the case can actually be used like a normal laptop. If IOS had better productivity apps, a decent multitasking system, a file system, and sublime text, it would be the best computer I've ever owned.
awolf 13y ago
Typing is such a widely voiced complaint because it's new and difficult at first and requires practice. Instead of putting in the effort, almost everyone assumes the virtual keyboard paradigm is broken and simply throws their hands up in the air in frustration. It baffles me. Typing on the iPad virtual keyboard is fine. Just like when you were learning to type on a physical keyboard, it takes practice up front. I can easily type 50 WPM on the virtual keyboard, and I'm not alone. See also: my app TapTyping.
- taude 13y ago
  After two years, I disagree with this. I have to consistently concentrate on the physical act of typing and not what I'm trying to write.
  - awolf 13y ago
    Then you're doing it wrong. Either you don't use proper typing style on a physical keyboard (all 10 fingers, each responsible for a specific set of keys), or you haven't put the effort into adapting that typing style for virtual keyboards. Typing is about training your muscle memory for each finger for each keystroke it could possible be responsible for. Once your muscle memory is trained, it becomes a subconscious skill that you should not need to concentrate on. The fact that this muscle memory is being used on a virtual keyboard vs. a physical keyboard does not matter whatsoever. The same concept applies. Edit: email me adam@flairify.com and I'll give you a free download for my paid typing trainer app. It works.
    - turtle4 13y ago
      Your response accounts only for one piece of the experience, which is the muscle memory. Perhaps you move like a robot, and muscle memory is enough for you to precisely strike the small tap targets of a keyboard, but you are off target to tell someone they are wrong based solely on that. Tactile feedback is a big advantage to physical typing which allows you to know your fingers are in the right place prior to making a keystroke. Without it, you don't know until after the touch has registered. Ignoring that and saying it amounts to nothing is short sighted at best. Even beyond that, there are plenty of people who aren't that coordinated and/or stable, period, which amplifies this deficiency. Additionally, this doesn't account for the fact that in most scenarios, the person using a mobile device is, in fact, mobile, and may not have a flat, stable area to place the device, but rather they are balancing it on their lap or holding it with one hand and typing with the other. Nor does it capture the fact that when you have the device in your lap, the screen isn't going to be at an ideal angle to view at the same time. So sure, the same concept applies, but to pretend that the experience isn't inferior is just turning a blind eye to reality, imho.
tenpoundhammer 13y ago
Better app switching and text selection would solve a lot of the complaints. Users can already get a physical keyboard for their iDevice, but standard text selection and editing is incredibly annoying. Also alt-tab to switch applications plus a group of apps that are "running" would make life good.
coldcode 13y ago
There is no such thing as a tablet or phone that is exactly the same as a desktop or laptop computer. Surface claimed to be that solution but no one wants them. Small screens don't work for productivity apps like spreadsheets and word processors no matter the platform. If Apple came out with a 15" iPad it wouldn't be an iPad anymore it would be an Air. One device can never fit all needs no matter how much you want it too. You can whine about not being able to put freight in a tiny sports car but that's what a pickup is for.
slaven 13y ago
I'm finding myself using my iPad for certain type of work a lot more with a keyboard attached. Apps like HaikuDeck are simply better at what they do than any app I have on my Mac, and with OS X app Type2Cell I can use my Mac keyboard to control the iPad. (both highly recommended)
robterrell 13y ago
I use a bluetooth iPad keyboard (the logitech one, with the smart cover magnets) and it made me much more productive on the iPad for emails and note-taking, but the next immediate problem is a near-total lack of inter-application communication. URL Schemes are a blunt, primitive, under-supported tool. The final problem was round-tripping. i.e. if I work on a slide deck in Keynote for iPad, which is pretty fabulous as a stand-alone, and then take it to the desktop (via many steps as described in the linked article) to edit it, there's a ton of minor differences in the slides that are infuriating to deal with. Even worse: iPad 3 + logitech smart cover keyboard = thicker & heavier than an 11" MacBook Air. I expected Apple to fix the IAC issue with remote view controllers, and hoped they'd offer a smart cover keyboard to counter the Surface, but WWDC rolled past without any news. Apple did expend a lot of effort to solve problems no one actually had but would help guarantee platform lock-in (i.e. SpriteKit). Sigh.
visarga 13y ago
After trying iOS7, and being an iPhone user since its inception, I finally had enough. I switched to Android and now I am in love with my new phone like I was with iPhone 1 back in the day. Shit like "no file system" and no ability to change the default apps for various actions are why I left. It's too stupid.
Ologn 13y ago
> A number of productivity software startups are creating great new apps that are mobile-first, solving specific problems like...spreadsheets (Grid). I'm not sure why they call Grid a spreadsheet. It has very little of the functionality that a typical spreadsheet has.

43 points by ananddass 13y ago

A really good assessment of the situation. I really enjoyed the qltv and qtv analysis - but this being HN part of me was hoping there was an actual solution. For me personally, the keyboard is the most frustrating, second to lack of cross-app integration.

ananddass 13y ago
Yes. The keyboard problem is a big one. It was so painful that I had to buy a bluetooth keyboard just to work with my iPad. That's a hard one to solve until apple comes up with something better user input device. (e.g. thalmic labs, leap motion etc). After I bought my keyboard, the next problem I hit was the inter-app communication issue you raised. That's a software problem and solvable.
- krmmalik 13y ago
  Is there a particular bluetooth keyboard you recommend?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

aroman 13y ago

I agree with the statements presented by the article (i.e doing real work on iOS sucks), but I don't really see what the title of the article has to do with its content. What led them to draw the conclusion that the productivity app market is on the "cusp of change"? I see only an explanation that the market has a systemic and fundamental problem -- not that there is any definable change in sight.

ananddass 13y ago
Sorry, I should have added more references in that connected the dots better. A lot of capital and talent is flowing into solving the problem. Thus, we are likely to see some big shifts. --$4 billion invested into "business/office" software on iOS since 2010 http://readwrite.com/2013/06/25/a-new-golden-age-of-productivity-software-is-dawning#awesm=~odhsmjHc92SgR7 http://readwrite.com/2013/06/25/a-new-golden-age-of-producti... --Mailbox's exit to Dropbox --Quip openly calling for a change to the word processor https://quip.com/blog/introducing-quip https://quip.com/blog/introducing-quip
- aroman 13y ago
  Ah, thanks for the followup. So basically the point is that people are recognizing the problem isn't just a growing pain of early mobile adoption, but rather is a serious and fundamental problem that needs lots of money and effort to tackle (but which offers correspondingly massive rewards, they expect).
- jimbokun 13y ago
  "--Mailbox's exit to Dropbox" This article puts into perspective why this could be a potentially huge strategic play. If you can convince people to use MailBox as their client, saving every attachment to DropBox by default, and continuing to push for DropBox integration in other iOS apps, DropBox could become the unofficial file system of iOS and the solution to the "complex workflows" cited in the article.

Ethan_Mick 13y ago

I feel that the article highlights an interesting problem, with some good insights. For me, building a productivity app that charges perhaps, $5-$10, may be worth it. But it would have to solve the entire problem, not just one step of their flow diagram. I can't make an app that is good at just editing the document, I should also include the other essential steps the user needs to do once done editing (or before). But this adds to the complexity... Also, I figured small screen size would be a bigger issue, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

AsymetricCom 13y ago

Productivity will only become better once users regain control of their hardware. Apple will only let its customers be a fraction as productive as they are internally.

erso 13y ago

I found this article completely unreadable due to Helvetica Neue Light body font. The Helvetica Neue Ultra Light header is also ridiculously unreadable.

msie 13y ago

inkmobility.com is selling developer products that may solve some of the pain points that they talk about.

unknownian 13y ago

I'm unsympathetic. The only thing that held back non-Apple mobile platforms was the app ecosystem. The Play Store has definitely caught up with the App Store. Even if you don't think it does, the versatility of Android really does beat that of iOS. iOS isn't going anywhere for the general populace, but I see little benefit for its use in the tech community. I'm not one of those "iOS is a toy for idiots" detractors, but not even iOS7 delivered on some really requested features. If we have to pine every year for Apple to build something bloggers keep asking for, is this the kind of model for a software platform that we want?

rimantas 13y ago
What did Ford say about people wanting the faster horse?
- unknownian 13y ago
  People are more knowledgeable now; Apple isn't always right.

orky56 13y ago

To get someone to pay, you need to prey on their impulses. Games accomplish this with instant gratification and addiction. For productivity apps, people can justify a purchase because their productivity is worth at the least that price. These are typically pay per downloads and then involve a user to switch to a completely new system. I wouldn't be surprised if engagement & retention are very low despite these high revenues. Disclaimer: I'm working on a productivity app.

ananddass 13y ago
Curious as to why would engagement and retention be low? As regard's pay per download models...looks like "Attach" business model's are becoming more popular. "Attach" means charging for something outside of the app store. Dropbox, Uber, Square all do it. I remember seeing a Chris Dixon post about this on HN a few months ago.
- mturmon 13y ago
  I have several of the pay-for-use productivity apps mentioned, and my experience was like the parent comment said. Initially got the app to fix a problem (content creation/editing is difficult on an all-touch device). But just fooled around a little and never really got engaged. I still do that stuff on my laptop. My take-away was that I wanted precise pointing and a keyboard and a big screen for those tasks, because I'm fussy about the results. But like a lot of the HN audience, I'm not very typical, so my experience may mean little ;-). Regarding payment model, payment wasn't the issue. It was functionality.
  - orky56 13y ago
    Every experience means a lot! People seem to be very purchase-friendly when it comes to mobile these days even though from a productivity standpoint, most work is still done on laptops/desktops. You need that larger screen, tactile input, etc., in order to complete complex tasks that involve switching among various tasks that require more than swipes and taps.

goronbjorn 13y ago

The font in this post isn't legible at all.

ananddass 13y ago
Yikes. Fixed the fonts to make it more readable.

drcode 13y ago

iOS gives priority to ease of learning over efficient workflow for power users. I agree this gave them a HUGE advantage early on, but as users become more sophisticated in using mobile devices this "priority to beginners" philosophy is going to let Android slowly eat their lunch.

uams 13y ago
iOS7 is already doing that. It's switching from skeuomorphic buttons to just typography. This doesn't address your larger point, given that the switch to lines doesn't mean that they're bringing advanced functionality yet, but it's a sign that they are willing to trade away easy of learning.

napoleoncomplex 13y ago

The displayed workflow is horrendous. And that's just one aspect of the sub-par experience of doing "real work" on pure touch screen devices. The poll sums it all up nicely. What users want is real multitasking, a keyboard, and features that are on a desktop. Seems pretty clear that the users don't want an iOS/Android device, they want a laptop/desktop with a real OS. No app can solve that, no matter how much funding it gets.

rimantas 13y ago
> and features that are on a desktop Just like I want my sport car to be able to pull the plough.
drewying 13y ago
Isn't this the dream of the Microsoft Surface and similar tablets? Give them multitasking, a keyboard case, and boom instant productivity. I personally just think it comes down to screen real estate. Small screens are hard to do anything productive. I still remember trying to type up a paper in college on an Acer netbook. Even with a full "laptop experience", it was a horrible and scarring experience.
- ananddass 13y ago
  So one of the things interviewees mentioned is that there was a difference between "micro moments" and "full blown work". Writing a paper is full blown work that they know they cant do on a mobile device. But they expected a lot of the micro-moments to work.
- phaus 13y ago
  One of Microsoft's biggest failures is that the keyboard is useless unless you're sitting at a table. I wanted a surface pro, until the keyboard covers were revealed. I suspect that most people who really wanted a hardware keyboard (lots of people don't even want them) for a mobile device will agree with me when I say that if your keyboard case requires a table in order to be used, then you may as well not even have bothered to try. I purchased a Clamcase Pro for my Ipad, and it's absolutely amazing. I have fairly large hands, but I can still type on the device in a manner that's completely natural and comfortable, at about 90wpm. I've used several different netbooks, and they all felt cramped in comparison. So far, I've completed dozens of essays and reports on the device. I even use it for some light web development. The best part, however, is that the case can actually be used like a normal laptop. If IOS had better productivity apps, a decent multitasking system, a file system, and sublime text, it would be the best computer I've ever owned.

awolf 13y ago

Typing is such a widely voiced complaint because it's new and difficult at first and requires practice. Instead of putting in the effort, almost everyone assumes the virtual keyboard paradigm is broken and simply throws their hands up in the air in frustration. It baffles me. Typing on the iPad virtual keyboard is fine. Just like when you were learning to type on a physical keyboard, it takes practice up front. I can easily type 50 WPM on the virtual keyboard, and I'm not alone. See also: my app TapTyping.

taude 13y ago
After two years, I disagree with this. I have to consistently concentrate on the physical act of typing and not what I'm trying to write.
- awolf 13y ago
  Then you're doing it wrong. Either you don't use proper typing style on a physical keyboard (all 10 fingers, each responsible for a specific set of keys), or you haven't put the effort into adapting that typing style for virtual keyboards. Typing is about training your muscle memory for each finger for each keystroke it could possible be responsible for. Once your muscle memory is trained, it becomes a subconscious skill that you should not need to concentrate on. The fact that this muscle memory is being used on a virtual keyboard vs. a physical keyboard does not matter whatsoever. The same concept applies. Edit: email me adam@flairify.com and I'll give you a free download for my paid typing trainer app. It works.
  - turtle4 13y ago
    Your response accounts only for one piece of the experience, which is the muscle memory. Perhaps you move like a robot, and muscle memory is enough for you to precisely strike the small tap targets of a keyboard, but you are off target to tell someone they are wrong based solely on that. Tactile feedback is a big advantage to physical typing which allows you to know your fingers are in the right place prior to making a keystroke. Without it, you don't know until after the touch has registered. Ignoring that and saying it amounts to nothing is short sighted at best. Even beyond that, there are plenty of people who aren't that coordinated and/or stable, period, which amplifies this deficiency. Additionally, this doesn't account for the fact that in most scenarios, the person using a mobile device is, in fact, mobile, and may not have a flat, stable area to place the device, but rather they are balancing it on their lap or holding it with one hand and typing with the other. Nor does it capture the fact that when you have the device in your lap, the screen isn't going to be at an ideal angle to view at the same time. So sure, the same concept applies, but to pretend that the experience isn't inferior is just turning a blind eye to reality, imho.

tenpoundhammer 13y ago

Better app switching and text selection would solve a lot of the complaints. Users can already get a physical keyboard for their iDevice, but standard text selection and editing is incredibly annoying. Also alt-tab to switch applications plus a group of apps that are "running" would make life good.

coldcode 13y ago

There is no such thing as a tablet or phone that is exactly the same as a desktop or laptop computer. Surface claimed to be that solution but no one wants them. Small screens don't work for productivity apps like spreadsheets and word processors no matter the platform. If Apple came out with a 15" iPad it wouldn't be an iPad anymore it would be an Air. One device can never fit all needs no matter how much you want it too. You can whine about not being able to put freight in a tiny sports car but that's what a pickup is for.

slaven 13y ago

I'm finding myself using my iPad for certain type of work a lot more with a keyboard attached. Apps like HaikuDeck are simply better at what they do than any app I have on my Mac, and with OS X app Type2Cell I can use my Mac keyboard to control the iPad. (both highly recommended)

robterrell 13y ago

I use a bluetooth iPad keyboard (the logitech one, with the smart cover magnets) and it made me much more productive on the iPad for emails and note-taking, but the next immediate problem is a near-total lack of inter-application communication. URL Schemes are a blunt, primitive, under-supported tool. The final problem was round-tripping. i.e. if I work on a slide deck in Keynote for iPad, which is pretty fabulous as a stand-alone, and then take it to the desktop (via many steps as described in the linked article) to edit it, there's a ton of minor differences in the slides that are infuriating to deal with. Even worse: iPad 3 + logitech smart cover keyboard = thicker & heavier than an 11" MacBook Air. I expected Apple to fix the IAC issue with remote view controllers, and hoped they'd offer a smart cover keyboard to counter the Surface, but WWDC rolled past without any news. Apple did expend a lot of effort to solve problems no one actually had but would help guarantee platform lock-in (i.e. SpriteKit). Sigh.

visarga 13y ago

After trying iOS7, and being an iPhone user since its inception, I finally had enough. I switched to Android and now I am in love with my new phone like I was with iPhone 1 back in the day. Shit like "no file system" and no ability to change the default apps for various actions are why I left. It's too stupid.

Ologn 13y ago

> A number of productivity software startups are creating great new apps that are mobile-first, solving specific problems like...spreadsheets (Grid). I'm not sure why they call Grid a spreadsheet. It has very little of the functionality that a typical spreadsheet has.