38 ms·

Yeah, the "wage gap" myth has been debunked many times over, it really destroys someone's credibility when they pretend it exists. http://www.theatlantic.com/b

Yeah, the "wage gap" myth has been debunked many times over, it really destroys someone's credibility when they pretend it exists. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-biggest-myth-about-the-gender-wage-gap/276367/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-bigg...

rayiner 13y ago
I'm not sure what about this chart suggests that the wage gap doesn't exist: http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/Screen%20Shot%202013-05-29%20at%203.32.18%20PM.png http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/Screen%....
- papsosouid 13y ago
  There were also words, not just pictures. Often times words that accompany pictures can provide useful information.
  - decode 13y ago
    I have read the words and they don't explain why the text contains the opposite information from the graph. I also followed the link to PayScale and found this page: http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/job-distribution-by-gender http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/job-di... It shows that men make more than women in 11/12 common professions and women make more than men in 0/12. Again, this is the opposite of the text of your link (and of your assertion). Did I miss something?
    - papsosouid 13y ago
      >Did I miss something? Yes. The image doesn't show the opposite information as the text. As the text explains, the average of all men's wages increases more than the average of all women's wages. The average of all men and all women's wages is not how you show there is a wage gap. The average of all women work fewer hours than the average of all men, and have less experience.
      - decode 13y ago
        The graph shows that for individual positions within a single profession, men make more than women. The PayScale page I linked to also shows the same thing. The text of your link says that "the gender wage gap disappears for most positions". How is that not the opposite of the graph and the data?
        papsosouid 13y ago
        The answer is still "account for hours work and years experience" no matter how many times you ask.
        decode 13y ago
        I just now realized that you didn't read the graph rayiner linked to or even the study you yourself linked to, so you're just replying with non sequiturs. It's clear that this thread is going nowhere. For others who have made it this far down into the thread: the "study" that papsosouid linked to controls for years experience and also probably hours worked, but still concluded that there's a wage gap. http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/women-at-work-methodology http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/women-...
king_jester 13y ago
This doesn't debunk the wage gap, only that the wage gap is not caused by differences in pay between men and women doing similar work in similar roles. The wage gap has always been structural: women tend to be prevalent in lower wage jobs or are penalized more for default expectations about raising children or domestic work. Also, men are more common the higher in company/corporate structures you go, so naturally women do not make as much because they are not as represented in those higher salary roles.
- papsosouid 13y ago
  Yes, it does debunk it. Wage has a specific meaning. If women are taking a different job, obviously they are earning a different wage, that is in no way a "wage gap". Calling someone working 80% of the hours and earning 80% of the pay a "wage gap" is completely absurd. >Also, men are more common the higher in company/corporate structures you go They are also more common the lower you go. Men are more common at both extremes, and ignoring the bottom part is a really common fallacy used to push a particular agenda.
  - king_jester 13y ago
    This seems like splitting hairs. There is wage disparity between men and women in general and there are reasons for that difference. Ultimately those reasons need to be discussed and addressed as it doesn't serve society to have so many of its members pigeonholed into low wage work (this extends beyond gender, of course)
    - papsosouid 13y ago
      Not at all. We have constant, deliberate deception being used to influence policy and law. People overwhelmingly believe the lie that women get paid less for the same work, that would be a wage gap. Policy decisions are made based on that lie. Politicians now repeat that lie. This is a problem, and needs to be addressed. Pointing out the reality is how I am doing my part to try to address this problem. It is not splitting hairs.
mcguire 13y ago
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2013/04/09/59698/the-gender-wage-gap-differs-by-occupation/ http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2013/04/09... "Of the 534 occupations listed by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, women earn more than men in exactly seven professions. Together, these seven occupations account for about 1.5 million working women, or about 3 percent of the full-time female labor force. The remaining 97 percent of full-time working women work in occupations where they earn less than their male counterparts." Property, real estate, and community association managers. Women's earnings as a percentage of men's: 60.6%; percentage of women in the occupation: 57.4% Bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks. Women's earnings as a percentage of men's: 100.3%; percentage of women in the occupation: 87.0% (One of the seven occupations where women earn more than men.)
- papsosouid 13y ago
  Why would you respond to someone saying "you need to account for things like hours worked, experience, position, etc" with "if you don't account for things like hours worked and experience, we can mislead people into thinking there is a gap"?
  - mcguire 13y ago
    Occupation: Property, real estate, and community association managers. Women's earnings as a percentage of men's: 60.6%; percentage of women in the occupation: 57.4% Occupation: Bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks. Women's earnings as a percentage of men's: 100.3%; percentage of women in the occupation: 87.0%
    - papsosouid 13y ago
      Are you seriously asking me to copy+paste my last reply back to you? How many times do you hope to repeat the same comments, and what is the purpose of that?
      - mcguire 13y ago
antimagic 13y ago
No, it really hasn't. You're suggesting that women actively seek out lower-paid, lower-status work. Just the other day there was an article on HN talking about a guy that was getting job applications rejected until he clarified his gender on his CV. If you're a woman that runs into this discrimination, your only choices are to lower your standards for a job, and accept one that is lower paying, or to not work at all. All of a sudden the argument that women doing the same job get the same pay seems rather weak, because it's far from clear that women have the same opportunity to get the same job in the first place. All of a sudden, the lower remuneration of women is once again caused by discrimination, just not salary discrimination.
- papsosouid 13y ago
  >You're suggesting that women actively seek out lower-paid, lower-status work. All available evidence supports that notion. Women are more likely to value other things more than they value financial motives. I am also not suggesting that is the sole cause. Women work fewer hours on average, they avoid dangerous jobs, jobs with long and/or odd hours, and they are more likely to take time off which leads to them having on average less experience. >If you're a woman that runs into this discrimination, your only choices are to lower your standards for a job, and accept one that is lower paying, or to not work at all. Or to do the same thing the author did and put "Ms." on your resume if your name is ambiguous. >because it's far from clear that women have the same opportunity to get the same job in the first place. Hiring rates don't support your hypothesis.
  - jami 13y ago
    "All available evidence supports that notion." Your citations for your assertions that feminists are liars and women like to be paid less are awfully thin.
    - papsosouid 13y ago
      http://lmgtfy.com/?q=do+women+choose+lower+paying+jobs http://lmgtfy.com/?q=do+women+choose+lower+paying+jobs

rayiner 13y ago

I'm not sure what about this chart suggests that the wage gap doesn't exist: http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/Screen%20Shot%202013-05-29%20at%203.32.18%20PM.png http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/Screen%....

papsosouid 13y ago
There were also words, not just pictures. Often times words that accompany pictures can provide useful information.
- decode 13y ago
  I have read the words and they don't explain why the text contains the opposite information from the graph. I also followed the link to PayScale and found this page: http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/job-distribution-by-gender http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/job-di... It shows that men make more than women in 11/12 common professions and women make more than men in 0/12. Again, this is the opposite of the text of your link (and of your assertion). Did I miss something?
  - papsosouid 13y ago
    >Did I miss something? Yes. The image doesn't show the opposite information as the text. As the text explains, the average of all men's wages increases more than the average of all women's wages. The average of all men and all women's wages is not how you show there is a wage gap. The average of all women work fewer hours than the average of all men, and have less experience.
    - decode 13y ago
      The graph shows that for individual positions within a single profession, men make more than women. The PayScale page I linked to also shows the same thing. The text of your link says that "the gender wage gap disappears for most positions". How is that not the opposite of the graph and the data?
      - papsosouid 13y ago
        The answer is still "account for hours work and years experience" no matter how many times you ask.
        decode 13y ago
        I just now realized that you didn't read the graph rayiner linked to or even the study you yourself linked to, so you're just replying with non sequiturs. It's clear that this thread is going nowhere. For others who have made it this far down into the thread: the "study" that papsosouid linked to controls for years experience and also probably hours worked, but still concluded that there's a wage gap. http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/women-at-work-methodology http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/women-...

king_jester 13y ago

This doesn't debunk the wage gap, only that the wage gap is not caused by differences in pay between men and women doing similar work in similar roles. The wage gap has always been structural: women tend to be prevalent in lower wage jobs or are penalized more for default expectations about raising children or domestic work. Also, men are more common the higher in company/corporate structures you go, so naturally women do not make as much because they are not as represented in those higher salary roles.

papsosouid 13y ago
Yes, it does debunk it. Wage has a specific meaning. If women are taking a different job, obviously they are earning a different wage, that is in no way a "wage gap". Calling someone working 80% of the hours and earning 80% of the pay a "wage gap" is completely absurd. >Also, men are more common the higher in company/corporate structures you go They are also more common the lower you go. Men are more common at both extremes, and ignoring the bottom part is a really common fallacy used to push a particular agenda.
- king_jester 13y ago
  This seems like splitting hairs. There is wage disparity between men and women in general and there are reasons for that difference. Ultimately those reasons need to be discussed and addressed as it doesn't serve society to have so many of its members pigeonholed into low wage work (this extends beyond gender, of course)
  - papsosouid 13y ago
    Not at all. We have constant, deliberate deception being used to influence policy and law. People overwhelmingly believe the lie that women get paid less for the same work, that would be a wage gap. Policy decisions are made based on that lie. Politicians now repeat that lie. This is a problem, and needs to be addressed. Pointing out the reality is how I am doing my part to try to address this problem. It is not splitting hairs.

mcguire 13y ago

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2013/04/09/59698/the-gender-wage-gap-differs-by-occupation/ http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2013/04/09... "Of the 534 occupations listed by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, women earn more than men in exactly seven professions. Together, these seven occupations account for about 1.5 million working women, or about 3 percent of the full-time female labor force. The remaining 97 percent of full-time working women work in occupations where they earn less than their male counterparts." Property, real estate, and community association managers. Women's earnings as a percentage of men's: 60.6%; percentage of women in the occupation: 57.4% Bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks. Women's earnings as a percentage of men's: 100.3%; percentage of women in the occupation: 87.0% (One of the seven occupations where women earn more than men.)

papsosouid 13y ago
Why would you respond to someone saying "you need to account for things like hours worked, experience, position, etc" with "if you don't account for things like hours worked and experience, we can mislead people into thinking there is a gap"?
- mcguire 13y ago
  Occupation: Property, real estate, and community association managers. Women's earnings as a percentage of men's: 60.6%; percentage of women in the occupation: 57.4% Occupation: Bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks. Women's earnings as a percentage of men's: 100.3%; percentage of women in the occupation: 87.0%
  - papsosouid 13y ago
    Are you seriously asking me to copy+paste my last reply back to you? How many times do you hope to repeat the same comments, and what is the purpose of that?
    - mcguire 13y ago

antimagic 13y ago

No, it really hasn't. You're suggesting that women actively seek out lower-paid, lower-status work. Just the other day there was an article on HN talking about a guy that was getting job applications rejected until he clarified his gender on his CV. If you're a woman that runs into this discrimination, your only choices are to lower your standards for a job, and accept one that is lower paying, or to not work at all. All of a sudden the argument that women doing the same job get the same pay seems rather weak, because it's far from clear that women have the same opportunity to get the same job in the first place. All of a sudden, the lower remuneration of women is once again caused by discrimination, just not salary discrimination.

papsosouid 13y ago
>You're suggesting that women actively seek out lower-paid, lower-status work. All available evidence supports that notion. Women are more likely to value other things more than they value financial motives. I am also not suggesting that is the sole cause. Women work fewer hours on average, they avoid dangerous jobs, jobs with long and/or odd hours, and they are more likely to take time off which leads to them having on average less experience. >If you're a woman that runs into this discrimination, your only choices are to lower your standards for a job, and accept one that is lower paying, or to not work at all. Or to do the same thing the author did and put "Ms." on your resume if your name is ambiguous. >because it's far from clear that women have the same opportunity to get the same job in the first place. Hiring rates don't support your hypothesis.
- jami 13y ago
  "All available evidence supports that notion." Your citations for your assertions that feminists are liars and women like to be paid less are awfully thin.
  - papsosouid 13y ago
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=do+women+choose+lower+paying+jobs http://lmgtfy.com/?q=do+women+choose+lower+paying+jobs