7 ms·

Leading Australian Telco storing data on behalf of US government

104 points by zzygan 13y ago

damncabbage 13y ago
Worse, a number of ISPs use Telstra's lines, eg. iiNet, Internode, TPG. I have no idea if that agreement also covered others using the same cables. (Telstra was government-owned until it was privatised from 1997-2000, and as such has a monopoly on most of the phone lines; the government sets the wholesale rates at which the lines are leased to other companies. Optus ran a bunch of their own cables, but the coverage isn't nearly as extensive.)
- celeryreally 13y ago
  At least when running on Internode hardware, the traffic only runs on Telstra copper; once terminated at the exchange (on Agile/Internode DSLAM), it pushes out into Internode's backhaul/network. (It's a moot point if the backhaul is Telstra owned I guess, or significant parts of the private network is leased from Telstra...)
- daegloe 13y ago
  Still worse, as mandated by the Australian government, won't all internet traffic eventually switch over to the new government owned/controlled FTTP and wireless infrastructure of the National Broadband Network?
  - dcfindlay 13y ago
    In our area the NBN has gone up recently, and we've received letters saying that the existing copper network will be decommissioned in a year so all landline phone users will need to get an NBN connection. If the Aus govt is baking intercept points into the NBN (not hard to imagine) then they'll be able to intercept phone traffic as well, whether they get cooperation from telcos or not.
    - daegloe 13y ago
      From what I understand, the government has required the telcos to sign agreements forcing them to cooperate with the transition to NBN infrastructure.
      - stephen_g 13y ago
        There's nothing like that happening. They are paying Telstra and Optus a pretty good deal to migrate customers off legacy HFC and copper telephone networks though. But no forcing is happening...
acqq 13y ago
One commenter there wrote and I'd like to read some reasonable answer to that: This is old news, obviously no one watched 4 Corners years ago – I think 15 – 20 yrs ago. I think it was about a program called Echelon. Remember the time a New Zealander broke into one of those unmanned “Pine Gap” sites (in NZ) and found mainframe computers downloading telecommunications data. Did we care then?
- dcfindlay 13y ago
  Maybe nobody cared because nobody figured they'd be able to retain the data they captured forever, or that eventually governments would acquire enough processing bandwidth to use the captured data in near realtime. In the age of social media, we do the public outrage thing a lot better these days, too.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Not to mention that we haven't seen so much blatant abuse of power then.
- tnuc 13y ago
  Nobody cared then and nobody cares now, except for a few IT geeks. In a 15 - 20 years from now the whole lot will have been mostly forgotten and accepted as normal. There and more important things in the politics such as gay marriage and immigration. Try watching CNN or Fox News and ignoring technical sites. The politicians want votes, they couldn't give a shit about your privacy. Australia and the US have been keeping call records (number called and time) for well over 20 years. I don't see how any of this is new(s). Pine Gap is in Australia not New Zealand, not that anyone really cares. :) And for the tedious people that want sources; Look up how General Patreus got busted with his gmail. Look up the Tampa incident and see how Australia listened into the telephone calls between the boat and Norway(or some such country). There are loads of incidents that spell this shit out but I need sleep and most people would rather watch a speech from Obama/Bush/Palin/Trump than learn what their government is really doing.
  - mtgx 13y ago
arjn 13y ago
Note that Telstra was once owned by the Australian government. Recently their stake was reduced to about 10% (according to wikipedia) but IMO the Aussie government still dictates a lot of what Telstra can do.
- xyzzy123 13y ago
  It is still a political project. We have to assume it's compromised, although by friendly government.
decryptthis_NSA 13y ago
Big Telcos are at the mercy of big governments for anti-trust issues, contracts so this is not a surprise. DOJ and FBI can cause them many headaches. This should bite them though when trying to buy foreign firms, cable links etc. No rational and influential country would let them do it after these leaks.
dcfindlay 13y ago
Interesting that nobody I've talked to over here seems to be that surprised about the extensive data collection. A few people are annoyed about the unaccountable way it's been done and the abuse of power, real or potential, though. It takes a lot to shake Aussies out of the "she'll be right" mentality, and we don't have a Fourth Amendment to be violated like the US does. I also fear that the aware, technically literate people here won't attempt to move Parliament House on the issue, they'll just resort to stronger encryption. edit:grammar
- voltagex_ 13y ago
  Oh I dunno, a few well placed Murdoch headlines seem to do the trick. If only he were on our side...
sev 13y ago
Every time I try to explain the implications of privacy intrusion to friends some always argue, "who cares, as long as you're not doing something wrong" - they also don't care about identity theft or anything...they simply don't care. And I want them to care...how do I force them to?
- acqq 13y ago
  Why do you think you have the right to "force" them? Just explaining, only when they are interested to hear, and not giving theory but the real-life examples is the only sensible advice. Of course, you have to do your homework first.
  - rustynails77 13y ago
    Do you remember the blue ribbon internet campaign back in the late 90s? At the time, I went into Australian #irc channels raising awareness. I was assuming that most Australians on the Internet (back then) were technically literate and would care. I had quite a few people who said "go fuck yourself" in different forums when I raised the issue. I hate to say it, but I do consider many of my Australian bretheren to be "redneck" like, but not quite like the "stereotype" you see in the movies. Hoping for the average Australian to "give a fuck" is not going to happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ribbon_Online_Free_Speech_Campaign http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ribbon_Online_Free_Speech_...
- imagross 13y ago
  Those attitudes are what makes a system like this incredibly scary, and what ultimately makes it most effective. What we've created is more or less a panoptic society where by knowing they are being watched all the time, people become self policing. At that point it's just a matter of how you define what is 'wrong' which is likely just going to be what opposes the current status quo.
CPAhem 13y ago
More detailed analysis and original documents http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/07/12/telstras-deal-with-the-devil-fbi-access-to-its-undersea-cables/ http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/07/12/telstras-deal-with-the-d...

104 points by zzygan 13y ago

Worse, a number of ISPs use Telstra's lines, eg. iiNet, Internode, TPG. I have no idea if that agreement also covered others using the same cables. (Telstra was government-owned until it was privatised from 1997-2000, and as such has a monopoly on most of the phone lines; the government sets the wholesale rates at which the lines are leased to other companies. Optus ran a bunch of their own cables, but the coverage isn't nearly as extensive.)

celeryreally 13y ago
At least when running on Internode hardware, the traffic only runs on Telstra copper; once terminated at the exchange (on Agile/Internode DSLAM), it pushes out into Internode's backhaul/network. (It's a moot point if the backhaul is Telstra owned I guess, or significant parts of the private network is leased from Telstra...)
daegloe 13y ago
Still worse, as mandated by the Australian government, won't all internet traffic eventually switch over to the new government owned/controlled FTTP and wireless infrastructure of the National Broadband Network?
- dcfindlay 13y ago
  In our area the NBN has gone up recently, and we've received letters saying that the existing copper network will be decommissioned in a year so all landline phone users will need to get an NBN connection. If the Aus govt is baking intercept points into the NBN (not hard to imagine) then they'll be able to intercept phone traffic as well, whether they get cooperation from telcos or not.
  - daegloe 13y ago
    From what I understand, the government has required the telcos to sign agreements forcing them to cooperate with the transition to NBN infrastructure.
    - stephen_g 13y ago
      There's nothing like that happening. They are paying Telstra and Optus a pretty good deal to migrate customers off legacy HFC and copper telephone networks though. But no forcing is happening...

acqq 13y ago

One commenter there wrote and I'd like to read some reasonable answer to that: This is old news, obviously no one watched 4 Corners years ago – I think 15 – 20 yrs ago. I think it was about a program called Echelon. Remember the time a New Zealander broke into one of those unmanned “Pine Gap” sites (in NZ) and found mainframe computers downloading telecommunications data. Did we care then?

dcfindlay 13y ago
Maybe nobody cared because nobody figured they'd be able to retain the data they captured forever, or that eventually governments would acquire enough processing bandwidth to use the captured data in near realtime. In the age of social media, we do the public outrage thing a lot better these days, too.
- coldtea 13y ago
  Not to mention that we haven't seen so much blatant abuse of power then.
tnuc 13y ago
Nobody cared then and nobody cares now, except for a few IT geeks. In a 15 - 20 years from now the whole lot will have been mostly forgotten and accepted as normal. There and more important things in the politics such as gay marriage and immigration. Try watching CNN or Fox News and ignoring technical sites. The politicians want votes, they couldn't give a shit about your privacy. Australia and the US have been keeping call records (number called and time) for well over 20 years. I don't see how any of this is new(s). Pine Gap is in Australia not New Zealand, not that anyone really cares. :) And for the tedious people that want sources; Look up how General Patreus got busted with his gmail. Look up the Tampa incident and see how Australia listened into the telephone calls between the boat and Norway(or some such country). There are loads of incidents that spell this shit out but I need sleep and most people would rather watch a speech from Obama/Bush/Palin/Trump than learn what their government is really doing.
- mtgx 13y ago

arjn 13y ago

Note that Telstra was once owned by the Australian government. Recently their stake was reduced to about 10% (according to wikipedia) but IMO the Aussie government still dictates a lot of what Telstra can do.

xyzzy123 13y ago
It is still a political project. We have to assume it's compromised, although by friendly government.

decryptthis_NSA 13y ago

Big Telcos are at the mercy of big governments for anti-trust issues, contracts so this is not a surprise. DOJ and FBI can cause them many headaches. This should bite them though when trying to buy foreign firms, cable links etc. No rational and influential country would let them do it after these leaks.

dcfindlay 13y ago

Interesting that nobody I've talked to over here seems to be that surprised about the extensive data collection. A few people are annoyed about the unaccountable way it's been done and the abuse of power, real or potential, though. It takes a lot to shake Aussies out of the "she'll be right" mentality, and we don't have a Fourth Amendment to be violated like the US does. I also fear that the aware, technically literate people here won't attempt to move Parliament House on the issue, they'll just resort to stronger encryption. edit:grammar

voltagex_ 13y ago
Oh I dunno, a few well placed Murdoch headlines seem to do the trick. If only he were on our side...

sev 13y ago

Every time I try to explain the implications of privacy intrusion to friends some always argue, "who cares, as long as you're not doing something wrong" - they also don't care about identity theft or anything...they simply don't care. And I want them to care...how do I force them to?

acqq 13y ago
Why do you think you have the right to "force" them? Just explaining, only when they are interested to hear, and not giving theory but the real-life examples is the only sensible advice. Of course, you have to do your homework first.
- rustynails77 13y ago
  Do you remember the blue ribbon internet campaign back in the late 90s? At the time, I went into Australian #irc channels raising awareness. I was assuming that most Australians on the Internet (back then) were technically literate and would care. I had quite a few people who said "go fuck yourself" in different forums when I raised the issue. I hate to say it, but I do consider many of my Australian bretheren to be "redneck" like, but not quite like the "stereotype" you see in the movies. Hoping for the average Australian to "give a fuck" is not going to happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ribbon_Online_Free_Speech_Campaign http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ribbon_Online_Free_Speech_...
imagross 13y ago
Those attitudes are what makes a system like this incredibly scary, and what ultimately makes it most effective. What we've created is more or less a panoptic society where by knowing they are being watched all the time, people become self policing. At that point it's just a matter of how you define what is 'wrong' which is likely just going to be what opposes the current status quo.

CPAhem 13y ago

More detailed analysis and original documents http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/07/12/telstras-deal-with-the-devil-fbi-access-to-its-undersea-cables/ http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/07/12/telstras-deal-with-the-d...