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FBI Document: [DELETED] had "plan to kill local Occupy leaders via sniper fire"

308 points by thenewkid 13y ago

angersock 13y ago
Well fuck. I was there. The HPD on the scene seemed pretty chill most of the time, but still. Goddamn.
cinquemb 13y ago
I'm getting a 500, so here's the cached version: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/06/27/fbi-document-deleted-plots-to-kill-occupy-leaders-if-deemed-necessary/ https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http:/...
gasull 13y ago
I've done some research before upvoting this. I thought whowhatwhy.com would be some kind of conspiracy site, but they just do investigative journalism. They are usually featured in Salon.com. http://www.salon.com/topic/whowhatwhy/ http://www.salon.com/topic/whowhatwhy/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Baker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Baker Also, it's known that the FBI coordinated the crackdown on Occupy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coor...
- cjambassador318 13y ago
  Well that definitely justifies upvoting a speculative conspiracy theory to the front page of Hacker News. Given that the US is literally Nazi Germany, it's 100% believable that the FBI would murder protesters. I wish the sheeple could see the US for what it really is: literally Nazi Germany. People like us here on HN and reddit understand what's really going on, unlike the sheeple.
  - reala 13y ago
    The documents don't say that the FBI was planning this. They say a third party was. The FBI redacted who that third party was. I'm wondering why there haven't beeny any arrests yet.
    - gasull 13y ago
      It doesn't say it's a third party. We just don't know.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      > I'm wondering why there haven't beeny any arrests yet. Because making such a plan is protected by the First Amendment. Carrying it out is not.
      - dTal 13y ago
        That's a nice theory, but there's a news article every fortnight these days about someone getting chucked in the slammer for a casual, jokey remark on twitter being interpreted as a "terrorist threat".
        saraid216 13y ago
        Are you trying to say that it isn't protected by the First Amendment, or that law enforcement is selective? Do remember that a police officer who threatened to kill the First Lady still has his job.
      - ScottBurson 13y ago
        No. Conspiring to commit murder is definitely not protected by the First Amendment. And even fantasizing openly, which should be protected as long as no attempt is made to act on the fantasy, has tended to get people locked up in recent years.
        saraid216 13y ago
        > Conspiring to commit murder is definitely not protected by the First Amendment. A charge of conspiracy requires at least two conspirants and an overt act. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1117 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1117
  - untog 13y ago
    I'm assuming that the people downvoting this need a "woosh". At least, I hope so.
    - fusiongyro 13y ago
      How many times do you explain and retell a joke before it stops being funny?
      - surement 13y ago
        once
        Gigablah 13y ago
        It's a trick question, because if you have to explain a joke, it probably wasn't funny in the first place.
  - nnq 13y ago
    0. throwaway HN id 1. unwarranted extreme historical references 2. use of the word "sheeple" on a superior tone referencing the HN and reddit crowds as some kind of "elite" that knows better than the other sheeple I'd say "gg, man!", but I don't fully get what's your game. But I'll upvote you just for good humor :)
    - lclarkmichalek 13y ago
      I think the clue might be in the username; cj has a fairly specific meaning on reddit, but saying the word on HN will get the comment [dead]ed.
- brymaster 13y ago
  But how can this be true?! tptacek just told us [1]: > nobody is going to shoot you and your friends in the head for marching around and > They won't even point firehoses at you, or sic dogs on you. You are freer than Americans have been at virtually any other point in our country's history [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5987208 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5987208
  - saraid216 13y ago
    I didn't see a listing of Occupiers shot in the head. Could you link me to that, please?
    - angersock 13y ago
      Occupy Oakland, as memory serves. A vet no less.
      - saraid216 13y ago
        Ah, yes. Scott Olsen. Thank you.
  - cjambassador318 13y ago
    Well everyone that's not a sheeple knows that tptacek is a shill for the government. Given that tptacek is a shill for the US government and the US is literally Nazi Germany, it's safe to ignore tptacek. Please continue to make valuable contributions to this community, brymaster.
    - brymaster 13y ago
      > created: 23 minutes ago Yeah, nice try tptacek. Continue the psyops :)
      - angersock 13y ago
        But tptacek was actually losethos all along! What a twist!
- sbisker 13y ago
  Eh, I'm with you right down to the point in the article where they start talking about this company Craft International who trained law enforcement snipers, and oh by the way were also at the Boston Marathon carrying backpacks with "markings resembling what was seen on an exploded backpack image released by the FBI." Insinuating something both totally unrelated and highly conspiratorial is not how good investigative journalism works, and unfortunately that sort of slant takes away from my ability to fairly judge the facts of the piece. That said, to be clear, I do appreciate the research you put in, and thanks for being thoughtful in your upvotes - just thought I'd offer that part of the article as a counterpoint.
- flexie 13y ago
  Interesting :-) But I still do think it's a good idea for all of us to cool off before we jump to any conclusions based on things posted by new members with links to websites few of us had heard about before, even if these websites are not just conspiracy sites. There is a lot of anger going around in here these days - and rightfully so - but it also attracts more radical comments with less convincing comparisons to totalitarian police states and it attracts a lot of hatred against Americans. Just look at some of the comments to this post or the post yesterday about a girl who was jailed when ABC enforcement thought she bought a beer or the post a couple of days ago about a dog that was killed while its owner was arrested for filming a police raid. The US is a big country, and we will be able to hear these stories every day if we want to. Right now, a lot of people really want to see stories that "demonstrate" that America is a police state. It kind of suits our mood.
thenewkid 13y ago
This is shocking stuff. "An identified [DELETED] as of October planned to engage in sniper attacks against protestors (sic) in Houston, Texas if deemed necessary. [DELETED] planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups and obtain photographs, then formulate a plan to kill the leadership via suppressed sniper rifles. ... This [DELETED] identified the exploitation of the Occupy Movement by [LENGTHY DELETION] interested in developing a long-term plan to kill local Occupy leaders via sniper fire."
- angersock 13y ago
  Ah, if only there was as much diligence paid to this sort of thing as to file sharing and drug enforcement and server seizures. I guess the common man isn't as important, you know? Hey, fellow techies--this is something you should be really concerned about. Selective enforcement of the most crucial laws (don't murder, conduct attacks, etc.) is really horribly bad for business.
- Mandatum 13y ago
  http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/tax-authority-confirms-our-doubts-about-occupy-wall-streets-debt-buyingforgiveness-scheme.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/tax-authority-confirm... This was in 2012?
- pekk 13y ago
  It's not news because it cannot really be blamed on Obama or "the liberals".
  - angersock 13y ago
    Now, now, let's be constructive. Party politics is how they keep the people too divided to change things.
    - cjambassador318 13y ago
      > the people the sheeple
zmmmmm 13y ago
I'm going to cling on to hope that there is some kind of context missing here, because taking that paragraph at face value is terrifying. (Example of context I hope is missing would be text like ... "In the event that members of the Occupy Movement have obtained a nuclear weapon and are threatening to detonate it ...")
- angersock 13y ago
  Nah, probably not. Who cares about the shooting of some homeless and some damn hippies, right? Edit: Folks, the country I grew up in and my ancestors fought for knew of a potential assassination attempt on innocent civilians, and apparently didn't care enough to warn the cops standing watch. Forgive me a little fucking gallows humor.
  - cjambassador318 13y ago
    Who cares about shooting some homeless and some damn hippies? Definitely not the US government which is literally worse than Nazi Germany. Sheeple need to wake up. Also lol: Engineer, coder, and all around cheerful human being.
    - Intermernet 13y ago
      Sorry for the all-caps: STOP USING THE WORD "SHEEPLE"! It makes you look like the most mediocre revolutionary that has ever walked the earth. There are MUCH better terms (no, i'm not going to give them to you, you need to do some research) for the people you have issues with, and your interests would be better served in engaging them in debate rather than quoting XKCD (http://xkcd.com/1013/ http://xkcd.com/1013/).
munin 13y ago
this just seems to indicate that the FBI was aware of a plot, by SOMEONE, to attack Occupy protestors. nowhere in the documents do I see information that the FBI itself made this plan and it would make a lot of sense if the FBI was tracking potential violence against protestors...
- gasull 13y ago
  FTA: The use of the phrase ‘if deemed necessary,’ sounds like it was some kind of official organization that was doing the planning.” In other words, the “identified [DELETED” mentioned in the Houston FBI document may have been some other agency with jurisdiction in the area, which was calculatedly making plans to kill Occupy activists.
  - furyofantares 13y ago
    That reads like pure speculation
    - contingencies 13y ago
      As does your comment. Hell, so does mine. We're not in S-expressions anymore, Toto!
      - smsm42 13y ago
        There's a difference between logically following an evidence and reasoning like "DELETED might mean FBI or NSA or Black Helicopters Squad - we are doomed! PANIC!!!" DELETED might mean anything, so there's absolutely no reason to give any weight to that specific speculated meaning against a meaning of "two patients of local mental asylum, when their meds were accidentally switched".
- jcromartie 13y ago
  When the FBI is aware of planned terrorism against average Americans, it goes in with guns blazing and parades the bad guys out on TV to show how they foiled the terrorist plot (even if it's the FBI's own plot). In this case they identified someone who was apparently making real plans, but did nothing.
Stealth- 13y ago
Page is down :(
orthecreedence 13y ago
Mirror (site is down): http://12160.info/forum/topics/released-fbi-documents-reveal-plans-to-assassinate-ows-activists?xg_source=msg_com_forum&id=2649739%3ATopic%3A1074535&page=2 http://12160.info/forum/topics/released-fbi-documents-reveal... Oddly enough, a lot of sites hosting this release are down. Hmm.
archgoon 13y ago
Huh. I looked up conspiracy laws in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29#United_... "Under most U.S. laws, for a person to be convicted of conspiracy not only must he or she agree to commit a crime, but at least one of the conspirators must commit an overt act (the actus reus) in furtherance of the crime." Does anyone know if the FBI could have arrested them on conspiracy to commit murder?
- DannyBee 13y ago
  Need more details. So, here is the common law/generic multistate answer (and what would have been chargeable in my old state): If someone asked someone else to help them kill occupy leaders, this would have been solicitation (and the crime would be completed whether they said yes or no). If they both agreed, and then committed some overt act in furtherance, it would be conspiracy. The overt act does not have to be related to the target offense of the conspiracy, just in furtherance. IE if you are being charged with conspiracy to commit murder, the overt act does not need to be "buying a gun". It could be "stealing money from an old lady that was later used to buy a gun". Here, it just says "they planned to obtain intelligence, and then formulate a plan to kill people". If they really just planned to have a plan, that doesn't seem like a conspiracy to commit murder, unless they all had really agreed to commit murder, and were still working out the details. It's not really clear.
pstuart 13y ago
The FBI response: "... if the FBI was aware of credible and specific information involving a murder plot, law enforcement would have responded with appropriate action." Appropriate to whom?
pyre 13y ago
| Asked whether he was concerned that, if what he | was saying was correct, it meant the FBI had not | warned local police about a possible terrorist act | being planned in his city, he said, “No. You’d | have to ask the Houston FBI about that.” Even if he were mad / concerned about it, he probably would not make a public comment to that effect. There are politics to consider here seeing as the HPD still needs to co-exist with the FBI and hopefully 'play nice' together.
lifeguard 13y ago
Totally integrated corporate-state repression of dissent http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/14030/large/OccupySniperPlan.PNG?1356861369 http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/14030/large/Occ...
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  To my knowledge, actions against occupy-movements in the US generally didn't involve "repression of dissent" but rather "repression of wild camping where it is extremely inconvenient for everyone else". Not everything they did was totally appropriate, but on the other hand it's really hard to dissolve such a camp without anyone getting hurt. The US certainly handled that better than Turkey.
  - iSnow 13y ago
    >The US certainly handled that better than Turkey. How standards have eroded. Next time, we'll cling to "the US does better than Egypt"
  - jcromartie 13y ago
    So, police agent provocateurs providing knowledge and material support (to do things like blockade the port of Houston) is just about kicking out inconvenient campers?
tlrobinson 13y ago
The question is who is [DELETED] and what would their motive be? Killing Occupy "leaders" seems like the absolute worst way to make the Occupy problem go away. Can you even imagine the outrage? The only way it could possibly be successful is by making it clear that if you protest you will be killed, and I like to think we're still pretty damn far from complete totalitarianism.
- de_dave 13y ago
  As always, it would come down to marketing. The secret would be to ensure that the sniper(s) appear to be lone wolves, rather than law enforcement agents. Any protests or occupations could then reasonably be split up on "safety" grounds, and at the same time the Occupy leaders would have to stay out of the public limelight for their own "safety".
- iSnow 13y ago
  Well I am more concerned about other aspects of this plot than its chances of reaching its goal.
- leke 13y ago
  The question is, why haven't [DELETED] been thrown in prison for many years? Especially after those gamers got long sentences for posting a "jk" comment in a chat room.
  - duiker101 13y ago
    I think the question should be in first instance, why did those gamers got long sentences for posting a "jk" comment in a chat room?
- Semiapies 13y ago
  You don't need complete totalitarianism for that - straightforward authoritarianism works just fine.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
grey-area 13y ago
It's hard to know what to make of this as without the [DELETED] portions, as there's no evidence of government agencies being involved. I'm not sure why Occupy were not informed of such a plot though? Perhaps the FBI didn't think it was credible? The part that worries me even more than the death threats was the classification of the Occupy movement as 'terrorist activity'. This opens them up to a whole catalogue of surveillance methods and methods of detention, and is a good illustration of terrorism powers being extended and misused for domestic dissent. This misuse of the label 'terrorist' highlights the danger of employing extra-legal means to attack your enemies in other countries, it undermines the rule of law everywhere, and weakens the accountability of all law enforcement agencies. Assassination, torture, rendition, and detention without trial are all normalised now in the US for terrorists. The definition of an enemy for the state always includes some of its citizens, so you end up with scope creep where formerly completely illegal and unthinkable acts are considered normal, just because the word terrorism has been used in conjunction with a person or organisation.
- zanny 13y ago
  Terrorist is todays communist, or yesteryears fascist, eugenicist, jap, negro, etc. Blanket arbitrary term to apply to dissenters you want to control and treat inhumanely, and society doesn't judge you for it because they are the "enemy" or "other". It incites an emotional response in people that let those holding the pen get away with way more than they should.
  - smsm42 13y ago
    There's a pretty big gap between dissent and blowing people up on the streets. So let's not engage in false equivalency.
    - Sharlin 13y ago
      The grandparent didn't do that. His/her point was that governments do.
      - 13y ago
sliverstorm 13y ago
Doesn't the Army have contingency plans for everything? I recall there was some hubbub a little while ago when people discovered the Army has contingency plans on invading Canada or something like that.
- a-priori 13y ago
  Are you talking about War Plan Red? If so then it's not new: the plan was created in the 1920s and 1930s, and was declassified in 1974. It did cause some hubbub then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red But fear not! Canada had a counter to the plan, called Defence Scheme No. 1. The plan was to launch a surprise counter-invasion of several cities near the border (Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, and Albany) then to wait for reinforcements from England. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Scheme_No._1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Scheme_No._1 Except no one ever told England that Canada would expect reinforcements in this situation, nor verified that they would be willing to provide them. Cities like Halifax and Winnipeg are far more vital to Canadian industry than any of the American cities: without them, Eastern Canada would be cut off from Western Canada by rail (cutting off grain supply) and from the Atlantic by sea. It would effectively lay siege of all of Ontario and Quebec.
tzs 13y ago
This was widely discussed in December 2012 when it was actually news. Googling shows it is suddenly back, often with errors (e.g., InfoWars reports it as the FBI had a plan to kill OWS people).
mehwoot 13y ago
Does anybody honestly think if this was a government agency doing it that this document would have just been Freedom of Information released?
kimlelly 13y ago
> [DELETED] planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups That's where RetroShare comes in: http://retroshare.sourceforge.net/ http://retroshare.sourceforge.net/ It's: 1. Decentralized (real p2p, no central servers) 2. Encrypted communication 3. Easier to set up than encrypted email: Install -> Exchange "certificates" -> Done. IMO, it's currently the best way to communicate.
- mtgx 13y ago
  I think it can be used for organizing people for protests, too. Of course when you make it "public" you risk being infiltrated, and the FBI knowing your plans, but at least they won't know who you are - unlike doing the same thing over Facebook or e-mail or whatnot - so they can't arrest you before you even go to the protests, like they've done to some Occupy leaders.
- andyhmltn 13y ago
  Please stop spamming this comment around. We get it, it's a cool app but that doesn't give you free reign to spam it.
downandout 13y ago
These documents by themselves do not show any government complicity in a plot to kill Occupy leaders, as this article strives to imply. This was a criminal investigation into people that were allegedly talking about doing this. As to why the targets of this investigation weren't arrested, in order to be arrested for conspiracy to commit a crime, you have to actually take a step toward executing the conspiracy. Planning or talking about it is not enough for an arrest. The FBI receives alot of information, much of it from criminals trying to save themselves, that turns out to be neither actionable nor credible. This appears to be an investigation that simply didn't go anywhere.
logn 13y ago
Maybe the FBI was just using some discretion. Afterall, they're not supposed to be the dept of pre-crime. It's interesting news for sure, but using this to bash the FBI seems especially one-sided. Had the actors in this story been different, I think the reaction would be different. Had LulzSec planned to attack some company but never did, and then they all went to prison for that, but it turns out it was just a bunch of people trying to impress each other with grand ideas, where would we stand on that story?
jcromartie 13y ago
This is immensely troubling. If it were an individual or group of terrorists planning to detonate bombs against the public, there would have been a raid and arrests and a big media show. But instead, the FBI knew that someone "planned to engage in sniper attacks" but did nothing? How could this be anything but a terrorist plot? The kind the FBI love to be seen foiling?
talhof8 13y ago
First Edward Snowden and the whole PRISM thing and now this. What the hell is happening to the US government? I gotta say it doesn't look very bright from overseas
dkarl 13y ago
Warning: this comment gets very silly, because I think the story here is actually a very silly one, and can only be understood with a sense of humor. Yes, I'm gonna go against my hippie liberal leanings and say this story is probably mostly harmless. I believe that the plan to "engage in sniper attacks against protestors (sic) in Houston, Texas if deemed necessary" was formulated for the contingency when Occupy threatened to undermine government authority altogether, plunging the United States into anarchy. Because we know what happens next: a coup, followed by fragmentation into various regional governments, which in turn become subsumed in a race war as patriot groups and groups of parasitic degenerates battle to define the foundations on which civilization is rebuilt. This is not an uncommon fantasy. Most people who are into guns are content to enjoy them for sport, as objects, and for limited self-defense scenarios, but a few like to have one or more elaborate fantasies for every exotic gun they own in which that gun becomes eminently practical. So some guy works for a police department that has some suppressed sniper rifles (thanks, War on Terror!) and naturally gets to thinking about the heroic ways he could use them to save the world by averting a horrible catastrophe. He knows it's all bullshit, but it's still a potent fantasy enabler. It's no different from when you think about your hot sister-in-law, and you're thinking, "Oooh, yeah, she's so goddamned hot, I would just... wait, I would never do that to my brother. Well, supposing my brother died in a car accident. I would totally bend... wait, that would destroy my marriage. Okay, so my wife and my brother are in a car together on one of those dangerous mountain roads in South America, and it goes careening off a cliff... no, a bus containing everyone in my family except my sister-in-law goes careening off a cliff on the way to Lake Titicaca, and then we would console each other, and then, ooooh, yeah, so hot." Except instead of a bus accident, you have Occupy undermining government authority, and instead of your hot sister in law, you have hot, hot, sexy firearms. Boom-chicka wow. I mean, it's never going to happen, but let's face it, you're only ever going to get the old familiar, and you get that, what, once a year? If all the stars align correctly, that is. And at your age, it takes a little more than the old familiar to get you remotely excited anyway. Your fantasies are all you have left. Put one such dreamer in a police department, and I'm sure some weird contingency plans get drawn up.
- gmoore 13y ago
  Really? Government plans to kill people is the same thing as you thinking your sister-in-law is hot?? You were right the post being silly......
EthanHeilman 13y ago
Next [DELETED] will attempt to assassinate to president of the internet. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Starfish_and_the_Spider http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Starfish_and_the_Spider
powertower 13y ago
To me it looks like the plan was if the protesters turned violent and attempted to burn down buildings, kill people, and go after whoever these [redacted] were there to protect, those [redacted] were going to respond lawfully with the necessary force?
walid 13y ago
This is unbelievable!

308 points by thenewkid 13y ago

Well fuck. I was there. The HPD on the scene seemed pretty chill most of the time, but still. Goddamn.

I'm getting a 500, so here's the cached version: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/06/27/fbi-document-deleted-plots-to-kill-occupy-leaders-if-deemed-necessary/ https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http:/...

gasull 13y ago

I've done some research before upvoting this. I thought whowhatwhy.com would be some kind of conspiracy site, but they just do investigative journalism. They are usually featured in Salon.com. http://www.salon.com/topic/whowhatwhy/ http://www.salon.com/topic/whowhatwhy/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Baker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Baker Also, it's known that the FBI coordinated the crackdown on Occupy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coor...

cjambassador318 13y ago
Well that definitely justifies upvoting a speculative conspiracy theory to the front page of Hacker News. Given that the US is literally Nazi Germany, it's 100% believable that the FBI would murder protesters. I wish the sheeple could see the US for what it really is: literally Nazi Germany. People like us here on HN and reddit understand what's really going on, unlike the sheeple.
- reala 13y ago
  The documents don't say that the FBI was planning this. They say a third party was. The FBI redacted who that third party was. I'm wondering why there haven't beeny any arrests yet.
  - gasull 13y ago
    It doesn't say it's a third party. We just don't know.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    > I'm wondering why there haven't beeny any arrests yet. Because making such a plan is protected by the First Amendment. Carrying it out is not.
    - dTal 13y ago
      That's a nice theory, but there's a news article every fortnight these days about someone getting chucked in the slammer for a casual, jokey remark on twitter being interpreted as a "terrorist threat".
      - saraid216 13y ago
        Are you trying to say that it isn't protected by the First Amendment, or that law enforcement is selective? Do remember that a police officer who threatened to kill the First Lady still has his job.
    - ScottBurson 13y ago
      No. Conspiring to commit murder is definitely not protected by the First Amendment. And even fantasizing openly, which should be protected as long as no attempt is made to act on the fantasy, has tended to get people locked up in recent years.
      - saraid216 13y ago
        > Conspiring to commit murder is definitely not protected by the First Amendment. A charge of conspiracy requires at least two conspirants and an overt act. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1117 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1117
- untog 13y ago
  I'm assuming that the people downvoting this need a "woosh". At least, I hope so.
  - fusiongyro 13y ago
    How many times do you explain and retell a joke before it stops being funny?
    - surement 13y ago
      once
      - Gigablah 13y ago
        It's a trick question, because if you have to explain a joke, it probably wasn't funny in the first place.
- nnq 13y ago
  0. throwaway HN id 1. unwarranted extreme historical references 2. use of the word "sheeple" on a superior tone referencing the HN and reddit crowds as some kind of "elite" that knows better than the other sheeple I'd say "gg, man!", but I don't fully get what's your game. But I'll upvote you just for good humor :)
  - lclarkmichalek 13y ago
    I think the clue might be in the username; cj has a fairly specific meaning on reddit, but saying the word on HN will get the comment [dead]ed.
brymaster 13y ago
But how can this be true?! tptacek just told us [1]: > nobody is going to shoot you and your friends in the head for marching around and > They won't even point firehoses at you, or sic dogs on you. You are freer than Americans have been at virtually any other point in our country's history [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5987208 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5987208
- saraid216 13y ago
  I didn't see a listing of Occupiers shot in the head. Could you link me to that, please?
  - angersock 13y ago
    Occupy Oakland, as memory serves. A vet no less.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      Ah, yes. Scott Olsen. Thank you.
- cjambassador318 13y ago
  Well everyone that's not a sheeple knows that tptacek is a shill for the government. Given that tptacek is a shill for the US government and the US is literally Nazi Germany, it's safe to ignore tptacek. Please continue to make valuable contributions to this community, brymaster.
  - brymaster 13y ago
    > created: 23 minutes ago Yeah, nice try tptacek. Continue the psyops :)
    - angersock 13y ago
      But tptacek was actually losethos all along! What a twist!
sbisker 13y ago
Eh, I'm with you right down to the point in the article where they start talking about this company Craft International who trained law enforcement snipers, and oh by the way were also at the Boston Marathon carrying backpacks with "markings resembling what was seen on an exploded backpack image released by the FBI." Insinuating something both totally unrelated and highly conspiratorial is not how good investigative journalism works, and unfortunately that sort of slant takes away from my ability to fairly judge the facts of the piece. That said, to be clear, I do appreciate the research you put in, and thanks for being thoughtful in your upvotes - just thought I'd offer that part of the article as a counterpoint.
flexie 13y ago
Interesting :-) But I still do think it's a good idea for all of us to cool off before we jump to any conclusions based on things posted by new members with links to websites few of us had heard about before, even if these websites are not just conspiracy sites. There is a lot of anger going around in here these days - and rightfully so - but it also attracts more radical comments with less convincing comparisons to totalitarian police states and it attracts a lot of hatred against Americans. Just look at some of the comments to this post or the post yesterday about a girl who was jailed when ABC enforcement thought she bought a beer or the post a couple of days ago about a dog that was killed while its owner was arrested for filming a police raid. The US is a big country, and we will be able to hear these stories every day if we want to. Right now, a lot of people really want to see stories that "demonstrate" that America is a police state. It kind of suits our mood.

thenewkid 13y ago

This is shocking stuff. "An identified [DELETED] as of October planned to engage in sniper attacks against protestors (sic) in Houston, Texas if deemed necessary. [DELETED] planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups and obtain photographs, then formulate a plan to kill the leadership via suppressed sniper rifles. ... This [DELETED] identified the exploitation of the Occupy Movement by [LENGTHY DELETION] interested in developing a long-term plan to kill local Occupy leaders via sniper fire."

angersock 13y ago
Ah, if only there was as much diligence paid to this sort of thing as to file sharing and drug enforcement and server seizures. I guess the common man isn't as important, you know? Hey, fellow techies--this is something you should be really concerned about. Selective enforcement of the most crucial laws (don't murder, conduct attacks, etc.) is really horribly bad for business.
Mandatum 13y ago
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/tax-authority-confirms-our-doubts-about-occupy-wall-streets-debt-buyingforgiveness-scheme.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/tax-authority-confirm... This was in 2012?
pekk 13y ago
It's not news because it cannot really be blamed on Obama or "the liberals".
- angersock 13y ago
  Now, now, let's be constructive. Party politics is how they keep the people too divided to change things.
  - cjambassador318 13y ago
    > the people the sheeple

zmmmmm 13y ago

I'm going to cling on to hope that there is some kind of context missing here, because taking that paragraph at face value is terrifying. (Example of context I hope is missing would be text like ... "In the event that members of the Occupy Movement have obtained a nuclear weapon and are threatening to detonate it ...")

angersock 13y ago
Nah, probably not. Who cares about the shooting of some homeless and some damn hippies, right? Edit: Folks, the country I grew up in and my ancestors fought for knew of a potential assassination attempt on innocent civilians, and apparently didn't care enough to warn the cops standing watch. Forgive me a little fucking gallows humor.
- cjambassador318 13y ago
  Who cares about shooting some homeless and some damn hippies? Definitely not the US government which is literally worse than Nazi Germany. Sheeple need to wake up. Also lol: Engineer, coder, and all around cheerful human being.
  - Intermernet 13y ago
    Sorry for the all-caps: STOP USING THE WORD "SHEEPLE"! It makes you look like the most mediocre revolutionary that has ever walked the earth. There are MUCH better terms (no, i'm not going to give them to you, you need to do some research) for the people you have issues with, and your interests would be better served in engaging them in debate rather than quoting XKCD (http://xkcd.com/1013/ http://xkcd.com/1013/).

munin 13y ago

this just seems to indicate that the FBI was aware of a plot, by SOMEONE, to attack Occupy protestors. nowhere in the documents do I see information that the FBI itself made this plan and it would make a lot of sense if the FBI was tracking potential violence against protestors...

gasull 13y ago
FTA: The use of the phrase ‘if deemed necessary,’ sounds like it was some kind of official organization that was doing the planning.” In other words, the “identified [DELETED” mentioned in the Houston FBI document may have been some other agency with jurisdiction in the area, which was calculatedly making plans to kill Occupy activists.
- furyofantares 13y ago
  That reads like pure speculation
  - contingencies 13y ago
    As does your comment. Hell, so does mine. We're not in S-expressions anymore, Toto!
    - smsm42 13y ago
      There's a difference between logically following an evidence and reasoning like "DELETED might mean FBI or NSA or Black Helicopters Squad - we are doomed! PANIC!!!" DELETED might mean anything, so there's absolutely no reason to give any weight to that specific speculated meaning against a meaning of "two patients of local mental asylum, when their meds were accidentally switched".
jcromartie 13y ago
When the FBI is aware of planned terrorism against average Americans, it goes in with guns blazing and parades the bad guys out on TV to show how they foiled the terrorist plot (even if it's the FBI's own plot). In this case they identified someone who was apparently making real plans, but did nothing.

Stealth- 13y ago

Page is down :(

orthecreedence 13y ago

Mirror (site is down): http://12160.info/forum/topics/released-fbi-documents-reveal-plans-to-assassinate-ows-activists?xg_source=msg_com_forum&id=2649739%3ATopic%3A1074535&page=2 http://12160.info/forum/topics/released-fbi-documents-reveal... Oddly enough, a lot of sites hosting this release are down. Hmm.

archgoon 13y ago

Huh. I looked up conspiracy laws in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29#United_... "Under most U.S. laws, for a person to be convicted of conspiracy not only must he or she agree to commit a crime, but at least one of the conspirators must commit an overt act (the actus reus) in furtherance of the crime." Does anyone know if the FBI could have arrested them on conspiracy to commit murder?

DannyBee 13y ago
Need more details. So, here is the common law/generic multistate answer (and what would have been chargeable in my old state): If someone asked someone else to help them kill occupy leaders, this would have been solicitation (and the crime would be completed whether they said yes or no). If they both agreed, and then committed some overt act in furtherance, it would be conspiracy. The overt act does not have to be related to the target offense of the conspiracy, just in furtherance. IE if you are being charged with conspiracy to commit murder, the overt act does not need to be "buying a gun". It could be "stealing money from an old lady that was later used to buy a gun". Here, it just says "they planned to obtain intelligence, and then formulate a plan to kill people". If they really just planned to have a plan, that doesn't seem like a conspiracy to commit murder, unless they all had really agreed to commit murder, and were still working out the details. It's not really clear.

pstuart 13y ago

The FBI response: "... if the FBI was aware of credible and specific information involving a murder plot, law enforcement would have responded with appropriate action." Appropriate to whom?

pyre 13y ago

| Asked whether he was concerned that, if what he | was saying was correct, it meant the FBI had not | warned local police about a possible terrorist act | being planned in his city, he said, “No. You’d | have to ask the Houston FBI about that.” Even if he were mad / concerned about it, he probably would not make a public comment to that effect. There are politics to consider here seeing as the HPD still needs to co-exist with the FBI and hopefully 'play nice' together.

lifeguard 13y ago

Totally integrated corporate-state repression of dissent http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/14030/large/OccupySniperPlan.PNG?1356861369 http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/14030/large/Occ...

bayesianhorse 13y ago
To my knowledge, actions against occupy-movements in the US generally didn't involve "repression of dissent" but rather "repression of wild camping where it is extremely inconvenient for everyone else". Not everything they did was totally appropriate, but on the other hand it's really hard to dissolve such a camp without anyone getting hurt. The US certainly handled that better than Turkey.
- iSnow 13y ago
  >The US certainly handled that better than Turkey. How standards have eroded. Next time, we'll cling to "the US does better than Egypt"
- jcromartie 13y ago
  So, police agent provocateurs providing knowledge and material support (to do things like blockade the port of Houston) is just about kicking out inconvenient campers?

tlrobinson 13y ago

The question is who is [DELETED] and what would their motive be? Killing Occupy "leaders" seems like the absolute worst way to make the Occupy problem go away. Can you even imagine the outrage? The only way it could possibly be successful is by making it clear that if you protest you will be killed, and I like to think we're still pretty damn far from complete totalitarianism.

de_dave 13y ago
As always, it would come down to marketing. The secret would be to ensure that the sniper(s) appear to be lone wolves, rather than law enforcement agents. Any protests or occupations could then reasonably be split up on "safety" grounds, and at the same time the Occupy leaders would have to stay out of the public limelight for their own "safety".
iSnow 13y ago
Well I am more concerned about other aspects of this plot than its chances of reaching its goal.
leke 13y ago
The question is, why haven't [DELETED] been thrown in prison for many years? Especially after those gamers got long sentences for posting a "jk" comment in a chat room.
- duiker101 13y ago
  I think the question should be in first instance, why did those gamers got long sentences for posting a "jk" comment in a chat room?
Semiapies 13y ago
You don't need complete totalitarianism for that - straightforward authoritarianism works just fine.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

grey-area 13y ago

It's hard to know what to make of this as without the [DELETED] portions, as there's no evidence of government agencies being involved. I'm not sure why Occupy were not informed of such a plot though? Perhaps the FBI didn't think it was credible? The part that worries me even more than the death threats was the classification of the Occupy movement as 'terrorist activity'. This opens them up to a whole catalogue of surveillance methods and methods of detention, and is a good illustration of terrorism powers being extended and misused for domestic dissent. This misuse of the label 'terrorist' highlights the danger of employing extra-legal means to attack your enemies in other countries, it undermines the rule of law everywhere, and weakens the accountability of all law enforcement agencies. Assassination, torture, rendition, and detention without trial are all normalised now in the US for terrorists. The definition of an enemy for the state always includes some of its citizens, so you end up with scope creep where formerly completely illegal and unthinkable acts are considered normal, just because the word terrorism has been used in conjunction with a person or organisation.

zanny 13y ago
Terrorist is todays communist, or yesteryears fascist, eugenicist, jap, negro, etc. Blanket arbitrary term to apply to dissenters you want to control and treat inhumanely, and society doesn't judge you for it because they are the "enemy" or "other". It incites an emotional response in people that let those holding the pen get away with way more than they should.
- smsm42 13y ago
  There's a pretty big gap between dissent and blowing people up on the streets. So let's not engage in false equivalency.
  - Sharlin 13y ago
    The grandparent didn't do that. His/her point was that governments do.
    - 13y ago

sliverstorm 13y ago

Doesn't the Army have contingency plans for everything? I recall there was some hubbub a little while ago when people discovered the Army has contingency plans on invading Canada or something like that.

a-priori 13y ago
Are you talking about War Plan Red? If so then it's not new: the plan was created in the 1920s and 1930s, and was declassified in 1974. It did cause some hubbub then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red But fear not! Canada had a counter to the plan, called Defence Scheme No. 1. The plan was to launch a surprise counter-invasion of several cities near the border (Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, and Albany) then to wait for reinforcements from England. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Scheme_No._1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Scheme_No._1 Except no one ever told England that Canada would expect reinforcements in this situation, nor verified that they would be willing to provide them. Cities like Halifax and Winnipeg are far more vital to Canadian industry than any of the American cities: without them, Eastern Canada would be cut off from Western Canada by rail (cutting off grain supply) and from the Atlantic by sea. It would effectively lay siege of all of Ontario and Quebec.

tzs 13y ago

This was widely discussed in December 2012 when it was actually news. Googling shows it is suddenly back, often with errors (e.g., InfoWars reports it as the FBI had a plan to kill OWS people).

mehwoot 13y ago

Does anybody honestly think if this was a government agency doing it that this document would have just been Freedom of Information released?

kimlelly 13y ago

> [DELETED] planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups That's where RetroShare comes in: http://retroshare.sourceforge.net/ http://retroshare.sourceforge.net/ It's: 1. Decentralized (real p2p, no central servers) 2. Encrypted communication 3. Easier to set up than encrypted email: Install -> Exchange "certificates" -> Done. IMO, it's currently the best way to communicate.

mtgx 13y ago
I think it can be used for organizing people for protests, too. Of course when you make it "public" you risk being infiltrated, and the FBI knowing your plans, but at least they won't know who you are - unlike doing the same thing over Facebook or e-mail or whatnot - so they can't arrest you before you even go to the protests, like they've done to some Occupy leaders.
andyhmltn 13y ago
Please stop spamming this comment around. We get it, it's a cool app but that doesn't give you free reign to spam it.

downandout 13y ago

These documents by themselves do not show any government complicity in a plot to kill Occupy leaders, as this article strives to imply. This was a criminal investigation into people that were allegedly talking about doing this. As to why the targets of this investigation weren't arrested, in order to be arrested for conspiracy to commit a crime, you have to actually take a step toward executing the conspiracy. Planning or talking about it is not enough for an arrest. The FBI receives alot of information, much of it from criminals trying to save themselves, that turns out to be neither actionable nor credible. This appears to be an investigation that simply didn't go anywhere.

logn 13y ago

Maybe the FBI was just using some discretion. Afterall, they're not supposed to be the dept of pre-crime. It's interesting news for sure, but using this to bash the FBI seems especially one-sided. Had the actors in this story been different, I think the reaction would be different. Had LulzSec planned to attack some company but never did, and then they all went to prison for that, but it turns out it was just a bunch of people trying to impress each other with grand ideas, where would we stand on that story?

jcromartie 13y ago

This is immensely troubling. If it were an individual or group of terrorists planning to detonate bombs against the public, there would have been a raid and arrests and a big media show. But instead, the FBI knew that someone "planned to engage in sniper attacks" but did nothing? How could this be anything but a terrorist plot? The kind the FBI love to be seen foiling?

talhof8 13y ago

First Edward Snowden and the whole PRISM thing and now this. What the hell is happening to the US government? I gotta say it doesn't look very bright from overseas

dkarl 13y ago

Warning: this comment gets very silly, because I think the story here is actually a very silly one, and can only be understood with a sense of humor. Yes, I'm gonna go against my hippie liberal leanings and say this story is probably mostly harmless. I believe that the plan to "engage in sniper attacks against protestors (sic) in Houston, Texas if deemed necessary" was formulated for the contingency when Occupy threatened to undermine government authority altogether, plunging the United States into anarchy. Because we know what happens next: a coup, followed by fragmentation into various regional governments, which in turn become subsumed in a race war as patriot groups and groups of parasitic degenerates battle to define the foundations on which civilization is rebuilt. This is not an uncommon fantasy. Most people who are into guns are content to enjoy them for sport, as objects, and for limited self-defense scenarios, but a few like to have one or more elaborate fantasies for every exotic gun they own in which that gun becomes eminently practical. So some guy works for a police department that has some suppressed sniper rifles (thanks, War on Terror!) and naturally gets to thinking about the heroic ways he could use them to save the world by averting a horrible catastrophe. He knows it's all bullshit, but it's still a potent fantasy enabler. It's no different from when you think about your hot sister-in-law, and you're thinking, "Oooh, yeah, she's so goddamned hot, I would just... wait, I would never do that to my brother. Well, supposing my brother died in a car accident. I would totally bend... wait, that would destroy my marriage. Okay, so my wife and my brother are in a car together on one of those dangerous mountain roads in South America, and it goes careening off a cliff... no, a bus containing everyone in my family except my sister-in-law goes careening off a cliff on the way to Lake Titicaca, and then we would console each other, and then, ooooh, yeah, so hot." Except instead of a bus accident, you have Occupy undermining government authority, and instead of your hot sister in law, you have hot, hot, sexy firearms. Boom-chicka wow. I mean, it's never going to happen, but let's face it, you're only ever going to get the old familiar, and you get that, what, once a year? If all the stars align correctly, that is. And at your age, it takes a little more than the old familiar to get you remotely excited anyway. Your fantasies are all you have left. Put one such dreamer in a police department, and I'm sure some weird contingency plans get drawn up.

gmoore 13y ago
Really? Government plans to kill people is the same thing as you thinking your sister-in-law is hot?? You were right the post being silly......

EthanHeilman 13y ago

Next [DELETED] will attempt to assassinate to president of the internet. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Starfish_and_the_Spider http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Starfish_and_the_Spider

powertower 13y ago

To me it looks like the plan was if the protesters turned violent and attempted to burn down buildings, kill people, and go after whoever these [redacted] were there to protect, those [redacted] were going to respond lawfully with the necessary force?

walid 13y ago

This is unbelievable!