4 ms·

Its really not bold at all. If you drink that koolaid, Sounds like you would also believe megaupload was used 'primarily for non infringing use'

weavejester 13y ago
I suspect that most people who commit copyright infringement are not credit card thieves. However, I don't like drawing conclusions without evidence, and I don't think it should be considered naive to ask for evidence before making up one's mind. In fact, I'd consider it extremely foolish to do otherwise.
- jasonlotito 13y ago
  I don't have any evidence I can point to. However, I can reference the hundreds of millions of dollars processed through various payment systems I oversaw to state that if you were trying to pay through a VPN, it would classified as extremely high risk, and outside of a few extenuating circumstances, we'd simply deny the transaction. When researching the various scoring mechanisms, we generally find that the VPN was generally just used for masking purposes, so we'd see multiple attempts go through using multiple names and addresses. Also, the chances of getting a stolen card response back from the bank was much higher. This isn't to say that a VPN means you are a thief. What it does mean, however, is that the risk far outweighs the potential benefits.
  - weavejester 13y ago
    Isn't paying through a VPN a rather different matter to paying for a VPN? I mean, there's no point to using a privacy VPN to hide your identity only to then give out your credit card details, so it sounds like an inherently biased scenario.
    - kbenson 13y ago
      If you are going to use a VPN to charge stolen credit cards, you sure aren't going to use a real credit card to purchase the VPN service, which could then be linked back to you.
      - weavejester 13y ago
        That's true, but I don't see how that relates to the point.
        _mulder_ 13y ago
        Well I imagine it might go something like this: Bad guy gets CC details Uses stolen CC to sign up to VPN Goes on a shopping spree via the VPN so law enforcement can't trace him So you're going to see more use of VPNs by fraudsters trying to hide than you are genuine users... hence the ban.
        weavejester 13y ago
        I agree that some users use VPNs for credit card fraud. What I find hard to believe is that the majority of VPN users are committing credit card fraud. If nothing else, it would be difficult for VPNs to make a profit if they had that many chargebacks.
        jasonlotito 13y ago
        > What I find hard to believe is that the majority of VPN users are committing credit card fraud. The problem isn't the majority. The problem is just a significant amount. Keep in mind how low the chargeback rates need to be to avoid serious penalties. Also, keep in mind the number of people isn't the issue, but it's the number of fraudulent transactions that occur. One person can attempt many. It's an attack vector, and one person can cause problem for many, many customers.
        kbenson 13y ago
        Additionally, while a legitimate VPN user most likely will only need one VPN, someone interested in committing fraud may want many. The relevant metric is not the number of users, but the number of accounts.
        weavejester 13y ago
- Ensorceled 13y ago
  Well you did draw the conclusion that it was a "bold claim" without evidence... The phrase "bold claim" is usually reserved for cases where the claim seems unlikely.
  - belorn 13y ago
    I would say that any claim is bold if it is surprising or apparently important, and is not covered by multiple mainstream sources. Examples are claims of majority (A majority of people are suffering from sickness A, B, or C), Or claims of superiority (My car is the fastest in the world).
  - weavejester 13y ago
    Claiming that VPNs have more people signing up with stolen credit cards than their own credit cards rather unlikely to me. The penalty fees on the resulting chargeback would make it difficult to make a profit, particularly on a service that competes on price in an increasingly crowded marketplace.
    - Ensorceled 13y ago
      Ah, now I see our problem. As I see it there are three main customer groups for VPNs; people using it to circumvent copyright protections (either location based or outright theft), tech savvy people who want privacy, and bad guys. The original said more bad guys than tech savvy people, I assumed that excluded copyright circumventors (the largest group) and you assumed they were included.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - weavejester 13y ago
        You mean that you assumed "tech savvy people" excluded copyright circumventors, while I assumed it did?
sixothree 13y ago
You could easily extend that claim to ISPs as well.

weavejester 13y ago

I suspect that most people who commit copyright infringement are not credit card thieves. However, I don't like drawing conclusions without evidence, and I don't think it should be considered naive to ask for evidence before making up one's mind. In fact, I'd consider it extremely foolish to do otherwise.

jasonlotito 13y ago
I don't have any evidence I can point to. However, I can reference the hundreds of millions of dollars processed through various payment systems I oversaw to state that if you were trying to pay through a VPN, it would classified as extremely high risk, and outside of a few extenuating circumstances, we'd simply deny the transaction. When researching the various scoring mechanisms, we generally find that the VPN was generally just used for masking purposes, so we'd see multiple attempts go through using multiple names and addresses. Also, the chances of getting a stolen card response back from the bank was much higher. This isn't to say that a VPN means you are a thief. What it does mean, however, is that the risk far outweighs the potential benefits.
- weavejester 13y ago
  Isn't paying through a VPN a rather different matter to paying for a VPN? I mean, there's no point to using a privacy VPN to hide your identity only to then give out your credit card details, so it sounds like an inherently biased scenario.
  - kbenson 13y ago
    If you are going to use a VPN to charge stolen credit cards, you sure aren't going to use a real credit card to purchase the VPN service, which could then be linked back to you.
    - weavejester 13y ago
      That's true, but I don't see how that relates to the point.
      - _mulder_ 13y ago
        Well I imagine it might go something like this: Bad guy gets CC details Uses stolen CC to sign up to VPN Goes on a shopping spree via the VPN so law enforcement can't trace him So you're going to see more use of VPNs by fraudsters trying to hide than you are genuine users... hence the ban.
        weavejester 13y ago
        I agree that some users use VPNs for credit card fraud. What I find hard to believe is that the majority of VPN users are committing credit card fraud. If nothing else, it would be difficult for VPNs to make a profit if they had that many chargebacks.
        jasonlotito 13y ago
        > What I find hard to believe is that the majority of VPN users are committing credit card fraud. The problem isn't the majority. The problem is just a significant amount. Keep in mind how low the chargeback rates need to be to avoid serious penalties. Also, keep in mind the number of people isn't the issue, but it's the number of fraudulent transactions that occur. One person can attempt many. It's an attack vector, and one person can cause problem for many, many customers.
        kbenson 13y ago
        Additionally, while a legitimate VPN user most likely will only need one VPN, someone interested in committing fraud may want many. The relevant metric is not the number of users, but the number of accounts.
        weavejester 13y ago
Ensorceled 13y ago
Well you did draw the conclusion that it was a "bold claim" without evidence... The phrase "bold claim" is usually reserved for cases where the claim seems unlikely.
- belorn 13y ago
  I would say that any claim is bold if it is surprising or apparently important, and is not covered by multiple mainstream sources. Examples are claims of majority (A majority of people are suffering from sickness A, B, or C), Or claims of superiority (My car is the fastest in the world).
- weavejester 13y ago
  Claiming that VPNs have more people signing up with stolen credit cards than their own credit cards rather unlikely to me. The penalty fees on the resulting chargeback would make it difficult to make a profit, particularly on a service that competes on price in an increasingly crowded marketplace.
  - Ensorceled 13y ago
    Ah, now I see our problem. As I see it there are three main customer groups for VPNs; people using it to circumvent copyright protections (either location based or outright theft), tech savvy people who want privacy, and bad guys. The original said more bad guys than tech savvy people, I assumed that excluded copyright circumventors (the largest group) and you assumed they were included.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - weavejester 13y ago
      You mean that you assumed "tech savvy people" excluded copyright circumventors, while I assumed it did?

sixothree 13y ago

You could easily extend that claim to ISPs as well.