8 ms·

Bottled-water purchase leads to night in jail for U.Va. student

80 points by harold 13y ago

kghose 13y ago
This is just wrong. No public apology? There should be a lawsuit. And the damages should come out of the paychecks and pensions of the "agents" not public funds.
cpursley 13y ago
Expect to see more of this with the systematic destruction of the 4th amendment. The U.S. domestic policing agencies have become militarized in both tactics and weaponry. There is no middle ground anymore. Either they are in full battle-rattle complete with assault vehicles, automatic weapons and drones or undercover in plainclothes. Any reasonable person in her situation would be confused and scared beyond their wits, not even considering the imprisonment aspect. It's pretty GD scary - how are we supposed to identify the good guys?
- ukoto 13y ago
  >It's pretty GD scary - how are we supposed to identify the good guys? The bad guys are the ones initiating aggression - it doesn't matter what uniform they wear (or non-uniform). The 4th amendment is being destroyed because other amendments are also being weakened that would normally protect it. The 1st and 2nd amendment could easily protect this shocking situation from occurring. The 1st allows us the free speech to inform the public of what's happening. In terms of the 2nd amendment - if this woman had been carrying a pistol in her purse (which is common in the South) to protect her from being overpowered, she would have a chance to defend herself. Just one incident of a citizen defending themselves would see the immediate halting of these kinds of thuggish tactics.
  - hga 13y ago
    "Just one incident of a citizen defending themselves would see the immediate halting of these kinds of thuggish tactics." That turns out not to be the case with our modern "the most important thing is to get home safe" law enforcement officers who replaced old fashioned peace officers, and the prosecutors and judges who support them, for there are a lot of incidents where this has happened. Here are two particularly heinous ones where Southerners defended themselves in no-knock raids, first got killed and had drugs planted to make it look good, the other was sentenced to death, and eventually plead to manslaughter (making him a felon), the 10 year sentence was less than time served: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye This is one of the greatest fears of the armed citizen; this case in Arizona is a typical example with the normal outcome, dead citizen (his rifle on safe, he hadn't even made the shoot/no shoot decision or had decided the latter), nothing happens to the cops: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting (Well, I suppose the most common example is puppycide, tangible in a way that most raids aren't, but that's not what you're talking about.)
- pstuart 13y ago
  This is why the War on Drugs is so evil -- it's being used as the foundation of this destruction.
Natsu 13y ago
At least they dropped the charges. Whatever misgivings I have about how the whole thing went down, at least they dropped the charges once things were straightened out. She probably was, technically, guilty of eluding police and such, but I'm glad they did not go through with that. I'm sure she's not happy about spending a night in jail, but just as I give her credit for mistakes in the heat of the moment, I'll give the police the same.
- jffry 13y ago
  To be fair to her, these were agents who were not uniformed, who (it seems) did not sufficiently identify themselves, who surrounded the girl and her friend, who drew a firearm, who tried to break their windows. If I was in that situation I would attempt to drive off as well.
  - netcraft 13y ago
    absolutely - if I had been armed I would have tried to defend myself - unless there are major parts of the story missing I can't see any justification for their actions
    - jffry 13y ago
      Charlottesville Commonwealth's Attorney Dave Chapman read Daly's account and said it was factually consistent.
- soundgecko 13y ago
  This could've easily gone wrong. What if they had a gun in their car? A knife? A gram of pot? What if there was a minor injury to the agents? All for a 20 year old drinking beer?
  - Natsu 13y ago
    Indeed, it could have. That's why I'm glad it didn't go more wrong and that they didn't double-down on the mistakes and press charges anyway.
soundgecko 13y ago
I thought it was yet another of those articles with an inflammatory but ultimately misleading headline designed to get on Buzzfeed and Reddit. Boy, was I wrong. The story was actually worse than the headline.
netcraft 13y ago
how would they have known she was underage, yet not known that it was bottled water not alcohol? Why would it be appropriate in any situation to pull a weapon for a possible underage drinking charge? There is too much about this that doesn't add up - there should be an investigation.
- revelation 13y ago
  The obvious question being - who gave these morons a gun instead of a flashlight?
  - GhotiFish 13y ago
    The question we would ask after that is who gave those morons a flashlight instead of a nothing.
- tomasien 13y ago
  They pull you over any time you look like you might be underage. It's bullshit.
stevoski 13y ago
I liked Hacker News better when it was a place for sharing and discussing start-up based news. Not to say that these other types of articles are not worthy of reading and sharing. But I can get them elsewhere.
- ecocentrik 13y ago
  I agree. I have no problem with the occasional political article highlighting some issue that might be of interest to the community but 60% of the stories on the front page have nothing to do with technology. This story isn't even relevant outside of Virginia.
  - c0nfused 13y ago
    I can sort of see the relationship to the greater security/liberties debate. But, ultimately this is a story about a series of escalating mistakes by both sides based on assumptions they were making about the other actions. It may be the fact that I have been in the parking lot in question, have dealt with VA ABC before, or have too many friends who are Cops. But, ultimately this reads as mistakes were made by all sides, predictable consequences, and ultimately a relatively reasonable resolution with no real relevance to the greater security/liberty debate.
- smokeyj 13y ago
  You can find endless streams of startup gossip elsewhere as well. Just saying.
  - GhotiFish 13y ago
    Yah. That stuff should be here, don't you think?
  - stevoski 13y ago
    Can you recommend a particular site?
- Buttons840 13y ago
  Since "Hackers" have often have an attitude of disobedience, it's not surprising that articles related to law and abuse of power are considered news worthy. This isn't "Startup News".
DanBC 13y ago
Why do you pull a gun on an underage person buying beer? (Especially when she's not even buying beer?)
- samsolomon 13y ago
  ABC agents are mainly a police force to stop college kids from drinking. They are armed like police officers, but their primary mission is a lost cause. Good use of taxpayer dollars. Edit: redundancy
- nknighthb 13y ago
  I don't know anything about the Virginia ABC's habits, but if California's ABC had officers like this[1], it wouldn't surprise me at all to read an article about them behaving like this. They seem to see themselves as holy warriors defending society from the inevitable total breakdown that would result if people are allowed to drink. [1] California ABC has "investigators", but from what I can tell, "street" enforcement is all done by or with local law enforcement.
totallymike 13y ago
I wonder what this has to do with technology or start-ups. It's a valuable read, but it belongs elsewhere.
tomasien 13y ago
Tommy from cityswig.com here - been dealing with Virginia ABC for about 2 years now, and their uncooperative behavior and insane bureaucracy essentially killed any chance we had to survive as a company. Not only that - but stories like this are the norm in Virginia. They're in constant over-reach mode.
vinceguidry 13y ago
Would a retaliatory lawsuit be out of the question here? Much as I dislike the idea of suing police officers for doing their jobs, she should at least be able to sue the state.
joewallin 13y ago
Police our out of control.
JangoSteve 13y ago
I wish we had "https" for real life, a way to know someone really is who they say they are. Not so much personally, but more an immediately verifiable organizational identification for a person. I always thought badges were a weird way for police to self-identify, considering a thug could make something that passes as a badge, especially in a dark in-your-face encounter like this. And you're supposed to do exactly what they say without regard to protecting yourself or fleeing, for fear of being charged with felonies (or worse). That just seems like a system that wasn't well thought out. The article said these women called 911 to verify these guys really were cops; that to me is an extremely smart move given the amount of terror they must have been going through.
cstavish 13y ago
Bunch of fucking amateurs. You have six plainclothes officers "on patrol" for minors in possession of alcohol. That's absurd. I go to college in a city where the cops understand that underage drinking is a thing and won't hassle you unless you're asking for it.
nekopa 13y ago
I know this has been beaten to death here, but I am starting to see a disturbing trend coming out of US policing/justice system. That trend is the laying on of multiple charges when someone pisses off the authorities. It's one thing when the federal prosecutors do it (Swartz, Brown et al) and now even low level enforcers are doing it. Is this what I have to look forward to if I ever return to the country of my birth? I cross the road at the wrong time, the arresting officer takes a dislike to me and adds 3 extra charges to the jaywalking charge which ends up with me spending 3 years in prison because I was running late for an appointment? I've tried to stay out of these HN NSA and other political stories, but there is one thing I've noticed as a business consultant: the attitude and beliefs of top management always end up filtering down to the rank and file employees. Is this what is happening to the US justice system? Will you one day walk into the local DMV get into an argument and end up with 15 (technically correct) charges against you, bankrupt and in prison?
- hga 13y ago
  15 is an exaggeration, but yes. For more details, including a good thesis on what drives this, an explanation for why you can have a dramatic drop in national crime rates without layoffs in what I've taken to calling the police-judicial complex, read this book, Arrest-Proof Yourself: An Ex-Cop Reveals How Easy It Is for Anyone to Get Arrested, How Even a Single Arrest Could Ruin Your Life, and What to Do If the Police Get in Your Face (http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-Arrested/dp/1556526377/ http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-A...), and decide if you want to return to this sort of environment. This was reified for me when I retired to the SW Missouri town I was born and raised in and an officer played a game of chicken with his vehicle and my body. From my time on the East Coast I was an experienced enough pedestrian to see that he would barely miss me and stared him down, but I'm pretty sure this was designed to get the average local to run, "crazy cop trying to kill me!", which would generate a fleeing an officer arrest statistic for him per the book.

80 points by harold 13y ago

This is just wrong. No public apology? There should be a lawsuit. And the damages should come out of the paychecks and pensions of the "agents" not public funds.

cpursley 13y ago

Expect to see more of this with the systematic destruction of the 4th amendment. The U.S. domestic policing agencies have become militarized in both tactics and weaponry. There is no middle ground anymore. Either they are in full battle-rattle complete with assault vehicles, automatic weapons and drones or undercover in plainclothes. Any reasonable person in her situation would be confused and scared beyond their wits, not even considering the imprisonment aspect. It's pretty GD scary - how are we supposed to identify the good guys?

ukoto 13y ago
>It's pretty GD scary - how are we supposed to identify the good guys? The bad guys are the ones initiating aggression - it doesn't matter what uniform they wear (or non-uniform). The 4th amendment is being destroyed because other amendments are also being weakened that would normally protect it. The 1st and 2nd amendment could easily protect this shocking situation from occurring. The 1st allows us the free speech to inform the public of what's happening. In terms of the 2nd amendment - if this woman had been carrying a pistol in her purse (which is common in the South) to protect her from being overpowered, she would have a chance to defend herself. Just one incident of a citizen defending themselves would see the immediate halting of these kinds of thuggish tactics.
- hga 13y ago
  "Just one incident of a citizen defending themselves would see the immediate halting of these kinds of thuggish tactics." That turns out not to be the case with our modern "the most important thing is to get home safe" law enforcement officers who replaced old fashioned peace officers, and the prosecutors and judges who support them, for there are a lot of incidents where this has happened. Here are two particularly heinous ones where Southerners defended themselves in no-knock raids, first got killed and had drugs planted to make it look good, the other was sentenced to death, and eventually plead to manslaughter (making him a felon), the 10 year sentence was less than time served: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye This is one of the greatest fears of the armed citizen; this case in Arizona is a typical example with the normal outcome, dead citizen (his rifle on safe, he hadn't even made the shoot/no shoot decision or had decided the latter), nothing happens to the cops: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting (Well, I suppose the most common example is puppycide, tangible in a way that most raids aren't, but that's not what you're talking about.)
pstuart 13y ago
This is why the War on Drugs is so evil -- it's being used as the foundation of this destruction.

Natsu 13y ago

At least they dropped the charges. Whatever misgivings I have about how the whole thing went down, at least they dropped the charges once things were straightened out. She probably was, technically, guilty of eluding police and such, but I'm glad they did not go through with that. I'm sure she's not happy about spending a night in jail, but just as I give her credit for mistakes in the heat of the moment, I'll give the police the same.

jffry 13y ago
To be fair to her, these were agents who were not uniformed, who (it seems) did not sufficiently identify themselves, who surrounded the girl and her friend, who drew a firearm, who tried to break their windows. If I was in that situation I would attempt to drive off as well.
- netcraft 13y ago
  absolutely - if I had been armed I would have tried to defend myself - unless there are major parts of the story missing I can't see any justification for their actions
  - jffry 13y ago
    Charlottesville Commonwealth's Attorney Dave Chapman read Daly's account and said it was factually consistent.
soundgecko 13y ago
This could've easily gone wrong. What if they had a gun in their car? A knife? A gram of pot? What if there was a minor injury to the agents? All for a 20 year old drinking beer?
- Natsu 13y ago
  Indeed, it could have. That's why I'm glad it didn't go more wrong and that they didn't double-down on the mistakes and press charges anyway.

soundgecko 13y ago

I thought it was yet another of those articles with an inflammatory but ultimately misleading headline designed to get on Buzzfeed and Reddit. Boy, was I wrong. The story was actually worse than the headline.

netcraft 13y ago

how would they have known she was underage, yet not known that it was bottled water not alcohol? Why would it be appropriate in any situation to pull a weapon for a possible underage drinking charge? There is too much about this that doesn't add up - there should be an investigation.

revelation 13y ago
The obvious question being - who gave these morons a gun instead of a flashlight?
- GhotiFish 13y ago
  The question we would ask after that is who gave those morons a flashlight instead of a nothing.
tomasien 13y ago
They pull you over any time you look like you might be underage. It's bullshit.

stevoski 13y ago

I liked Hacker News better when it was a place for sharing and discussing start-up based news. Not to say that these other types of articles are not worthy of reading and sharing. But I can get them elsewhere.

ecocentrik 13y ago
I agree. I have no problem with the occasional political article highlighting some issue that might be of interest to the community but 60% of the stories on the front page have nothing to do with technology. This story isn't even relevant outside of Virginia.
- c0nfused 13y ago
  I can sort of see the relationship to the greater security/liberties debate. But, ultimately this is a story about a series of escalating mistakes by both sides based on assumptions they were making about the other actions. It may be the fact that I have been in the parking lot in question, have dealt with VA ABC before, or have too many friends who are Cops. But, ultimately this reads as mistakes were made by all sides, predictable consequences, and ultimately a relatively reasonable resolution with no real relevance to the greater security/liberty debate.
smokeyj 13y ago
You can find endless streams of startup gossip elsewhere as well. Just saying.
- GhotiFish 13y ago
  Yah. That stuff should be here, don't you think?
- stevoski 13y ago
  Can you recommend a particular site?
Buttons840 13y ago
Since "Hackers" have often have an attitude of disobedience, it's not surprising that articles related to law and abuse of power are considered news worthy. This isn't "Startup News".

DanBC 13y ago

Why do you pull a gun on an underage person buying beer? (Especially when she's not even buying beer?)

samsolomon 13y ago
ABC agents are mainly a police force to stop college kids from drinking. They are armed like police officers, but their primary mission is a lost cause. Good use of taxpayer dollars. Edit: redundancy
nknighthb 13y ago
I don't know anything about the Virginia ABC's habits, but if California's ABC had officers like this[1], it wouldn't surprise me at all to read an article about them behaving like this. They seem to see themselves as holy warriors defending society from the inevitable total breakdown that would result if people are allowed to drink. [1] California ABC has "investigators", but from what I can tell, "street" enforcement is all done by or with local law enforcement.

totallymike 13y ago

I wonder what this has to do with technology or start-ups. It's a valuable read, but it belongs elsewhere.

tomasien 13y ago

Tommy from cityswig.com here - been dealing with Virginia ABC for about 2 years now, and their uncooperative behavior and insane bureaucracy essentially killed any chance we had to survive as a company. Not only that - but stories like this are the norm in Virginia. They're in constant over-reach mode.

vinceguidry 13y ago

Would a retaliatory lawsuit be out of the question here? Much as I dislike the idea of suing police officers for doing their jobs, she should at least be able to sue the state.

joewallin 13y ago

Police our out of control.

JangoSteve 13y ago

I wish we had "https" for real life, a way to know someone really is who they say they are. Not so much personally, but more an immediately verifiable organizational identification for a person. I always thought badges were a weird way for police to self-identify, considering a thug could make something that passes as a badge, especially in a dark in-your-face encounter like this. And you're supposed to do exactly what they say without regard to protecting yourself or fleeing, for fear of being charged with felonies (or worse). That just seems like a system that wasn't well thought out. The article said these women called 911 to verify these guys really were cops; that to me is an extremely smart move given the amount of terror they must have been going through.

cstavish 13y ago

Bunch of fucking amateurs. You have six plainclothes officers "on patrol" for minors in possession of alcohol. That's absurd. I go to college in a city where the cops understand that underage drinking is a thing and won't hassle you unless you're asking for it.

nekopa 13y ago

I know this has been beaten to death here, but I am starting to see a disturbing trend coming out of US policing/justice system. That trend is the laying on of multiple charges when someone pisses off the authorities. It's one thing when the federal prosecutors do it (Swartz, Brown et al) and now even low level enforcers are doing it. Is this what I have to look forward to if I ever return to the country of my birth? I cross the road at the wrong time, the arresting officer takes a dislike to me and adds 3 extra charges to the jaywalking charge which ends up with me spending 3 years in prison because I was running late for an appointment? I've tried to stay out of these HN NSA and other political stories, but there is one thing I've noticed as a business consultant: the attitude and beliefs of top management always end up filtering down to the rank and file employees. Is this what is happening to the US justice system? Will you one day walk into the local DMV get into an argument and end up with 15 (technically correct) charges against you, bankrupt and in prison?

hga 13y ago
15 is an exaggeration, but yes. For more details, including a good thesis on what drives this, an explanation for why you can have a dramatic drop in national crime rates without layoffs in what I've taken to calling the police-judicial complex, read this book, Arrest-Proof Yourself: An Ex-Cop Reveals How Easy It Is for Anyone to Get Arrested, How Even a Single Arrest Could Ruin Your Life, and What to Do If the Police Get in Your Face (http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-Arrested/dp/1556526377/ http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-A...), and decide if you want to return to this sort of environment. This was reified for me when I retired to the SW Missouri town I was born and raised in and an officer played a game of chicken with his vehicle and my body. From my time on the East Coast I was an experienced enough pedestrian to see that he would barely miss me and stared him down, but I'm pretty sure this was designed to get the average local to run, "crazy cop trying to kill me!", which would generate a fleeing an officer arrest statistic for him per the book.