6 ms·

US 'disappointed' with Hong Kong, asks Latin American countries to stop Snowden

polemic 13y ago
Dripping with irony: Persons wanted on felony charges, such as Mr. Snowden, should not be allowed to proceed in any further international travel, other than is necessary to return him to the United States. Because of the Privacy Act, we cannot comment on Mr Snowden's passport specifically. Maybe, after HKSAR's closing jibe[1], they think it's a game? 1. http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201306/23/P201306230476.htm http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201306/23/P201306230476.h...
- runn1ng 13y ago
  I can appreciate US government caring about privacy.
  - seferphier 13y ago
    heh, the irony.
    - fixxer 13y ago
      When I read these statements (this one, the NSA press statement earlier, etc.), I honestly wonder if anyone on the side of government actually does get the irony.
      - seferphier 13y ago
        I'm sure some of them understand the irony but they have to (blindly) obey to authority. see related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
        fixxer 13y ago
        We hope. The alternative is a bunch of Dr. Strangeloves are running things.
    - clicks 13y ago
      If you want some more irony: Keith Alexander, chief of NSA, was at the last Defcon [1] giving talks wearing jeans and.. yes, a t-shirt with EFF slogan: https://twitter.com/EFF/status/346011010819305472 https://twitter.com/EFF/status/346011010819305472 [1]: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57481689-83/nsa-director-finally-greets-defcon-hackers/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57481689-83/nsa-director-fi...
      - alan_cx 13y ago
        Ahhhh, a subliminal message, to seed the idea the the EFF is puppet of the NSA too. Spooky...
      - seferphier 13y ago
        You have to wear clothes to "fit in" with the crowd. It is like camouflaging to your environment: "Sometimes you guys get a bad rap," Alexander said. "From my perspective, what you're doing to figure out vulnerabilities in systems" is great." It is great because we need to recruit hackers like you to join NSA and find vulnerabilities to gather "intelligence" on everyone! >The country also needs better sharing between private companies and the government, something that proposed cybersecurity legislation can help fix Translation: We need to "fix the sharing of data" by forcing private companies, namely, Google, Apple, Facebook, Verizon and Microsoft to hand over all their data on users through legal means.
- ChuckMcM 13y ago
  That press release is priceless. FWIW that is how you play the game of getting what you want while not getting in trouble. The whole "Well we are still waiting for the correct forms to be filed in the correct way oh and meanwhile he decided to leave."
- bjornsing 13y ago
  Speaking of irony, have you seen the ABC News interview[1] with General Keith Alexander, Director of the NSA? He is specifically (and brilliantly) asked if he is confident that the NSA has not broken Hong Kong law (in it's cyber espionage activities). His answer is a mumble about the NSA not violating US law. Under those circumstances I'd be somewhat careful with the word 'disappointed'... :) [1] http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/nsa-chief-keith-alexander-system-did-not-work-as-it-should-have-to-prevent-snowden-document-leaks/ http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/nsa-chief-keith...
  - danbruc 13y ago
    »Are you sure you did not break US law when you hacked computer systems in the USA?« »I am sure we did not break Chinese law.«
    - coldtea 13y ago
      -- still, the answer is for "when they hacked computer systems in the USA". As for if they broke Chinese law "when they hacked computer systems IN CHINA", that's another question.
      - nano111 13y ago
        if you use a computer (phone) MADE IN CHINA, you can't expect any privacy
        coldtea 13y ago
        Err, wait what? I thought we're technical people here.
        nano111 13y ago
        they are all made in china, don't you get it?
jlgreco 13y ago
> "[as there was] no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving" What exactly does the US think that Hong Kong should have done? Break the law? What a bunch of hypocrites.
- alexqgb 13y ago
  Actually, it's not hypocritical at all - which is the problem in a nutshell. We've gotten so used arbitrary enforcement of our own laws (e.g. Clapper) that we're shocked when others take the rule of law seriously. Or at least, more seriously than we do.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  It is consistent though.... Since we are now sure that non Americans are worth less than Americans to the US government, then it does actually make sense that Hong Kong law could be regarded as secondary and that the demands of US law reigns supreme. Sadly, I suppose that would be a demonstration of the "arrogance" the US is so often accused of. Dunno why they dont just leave the bloke to it. Just issue a standard warrant and he's basically never allowed back in the US unless he is prepared to face the charges. Olde days, "exile" was a decent punishment for some one in this position. Why not now? Surely never being allowed home for the rest of his life, to a country so great as the USA must be a terrible punishment for an American, no? What's wrong with a bit of olde skool exile?
  - speeder 13y ago
    I guess that US knows that it is not great at all, and people will HAPPILY stay exiled (like for example, Bobby Fisher... that after being exiled in this way was very happy to take a Iceland citizenship and dump his US one)
  - pedromorgan 13y ago
    "Sadly, I suppose that would be a demonstration of the "arrogance" the US is so often accused of." Accused my ass.. more like "IS".
  - coldtea 13y ago
beedogs 13y ago
That's funny. I'm "disappointed" with America, and I think my reasons are better.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
alayne 13y ago
But they're not worried about the fact that more people are seeking political asylum from western countries? Is this our Roman Empire moment?
- GoodIntentions 13y ago
  It's passed already? thirty hours of Warcraft a week after working to pay your share of taxes is the new bread and circuses.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
jrockway 13y ago
I was looking forward to watching the extradition trial snake through the Hong Kong courts, but this is fun too. It really makes the US look like a lot of incompetents trying very hard to not have their incompetence exposed, and we all know how that ends. Snowden: 2, US: 0. (I'd also like to see a response from all the senators and op-ed columnists that were quick to remind us that Snowden was a "high school dropout" explain why someone so clearly inferior to everyone else can outsmart them so effortlessly.)
- junto 13y ago
  The US have the "long game". They'll get him (sadly) eventually.
  - jrockway 13y ago
    Just like they got Bobby Fischer?
    - junto 13y ago
      Wasn't that just tax evasion?
eli 13y ago
Honest question: Is there any doubt that Snowden is guilty of the crimes he's charged with (e.g. "unauthorized communication of national defense information")?
- krapp 13y ago
  I don't see how there could be. Although there does seem to be some debate about whether or not what he did should be considered a crime, and whether he's guilty of everything he's charged with.
- jstalin 13y ago
  Yes. See here: http://www.popehat.com/2013/06/23/a-look-at-the-charges-against-edward-snowden/ http://www.popehat.com/2013/06/23/a-look-at-the-charges-agai... "Note that the second and third charges both require the feds to prove that Snowden's release of information to the press was harmful to the United States. This puts our government in the position of attempting to prove that it is harmful to release accurate information about how it is spying on us, and how it is misleading us about spying on us. Espionage charges usually describe someone with classified information leaking that information to powers hostile to the United States government."
  - eli 13y ago
    That doesn't seem like it would be nearly as awkward nor as difficult to prove as is implied here. I would think secret details of spy programs would almost always harm national security (insofar as you believe spying can aide national security). The whole point of spying on communications depends on the targets not knowing they're being listened to. (Note: I'm not saying the NSA program is good or justified)
    - csense 13y ago
      "The statute...require[s] the government to prove that the defendant...communicated or made unavailable to an unauthorized person...in any manner prejudicial to the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States...classified information..." The middle part (labeled (3) by Popehat), as the blog correctly points out, is the reason this is a big controversy and not a straightforward spy case -- it's not at all clear that his disclosures were meant to benefit foreign powers, or that he was attempting to harm the United States.
gwgarry 13y ago
In other news Hong Kong dissappoint in NSA for breaking laws. Asks for extradition of NSA head to answer for charges of espionage.

Dripping with irony: Persons wanted on felony charges, such as Mr. Snowden, should not be allowed to proceed in any further international travel, other than is necessary to return him to the United States. Because of the Privacy Act, we cannot comment on Mr Snowden's passport specifically. Maybe, after HKSAR's closing jibe[1], they think it's a game? 1. http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201306/23/P201306230476.htm http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201306/23/P201306230476.h...

runn1ng 13y ago
I can appreciate US government caring about privacy.
- seferphier 13y ago
  heh, the irony.
  - fixxer 13y ago
    When I read these statements (this one, the NSA press statement earlier, etc.), I honestly wonder if anyone on the side of government actually does get the irony.
    - seferphier 13y ago
      I'm sure some of them understand the irony but they have to (blindly) obey to authority. see related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
      - fixxer 13y ago
        We hope. The alternative is a bunch of Dr. Strangeloves are running things.
  - clicks 13y ago
    If you want some more irony: Keith Alexander, chief of NSA, was at the last Defcon [1] giving talks wearing jeans and.. yes, a t-shirt with EFF slogan: https://twitter.com/EFF/status/346011010819305472 https://twitter.com/EFF/status/346011010819305472 [1]: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57481689-83/nsa-director-finally-greets-defcon-hackers/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57481689-83/nsa-director-fi...
    - alan_cx 13y ago
      Ahhhh, a subliminal message, to seed the idea the the EFF is puppet of the NSA too. Spooky...
    - seferphier 13y ago
      You have to wear clothes to "fit in" with the crowd. It is like camouflaging to your environment: "Sometimes you guys get a bad rap," Alexander said. "From my perspective, what you're doing to figure out vulnerabilities in systems" is great." It is great because we need to recruit hackers like you to join NSA and find vulnerabilities to gather "intelligence" on everyone! >The country also needs better sharing between private companies and the government, something that proposed cybersecurity legislation can help fix Translation: We need to "fix the sharing of data" by forcing private companies, namely, Google, Apple, Facebook, Verizon and Microsoft to hand over all their data on users through legal means.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
That press release is priceless. FWIW that is how you play the game of getting what you want while not getting in trouble. The whole "Well we are still waiting for the correct forms to be filed in the correct way oh and meanwhile he decided to leave."
bjornsing 13y ago
Speaking of irony, have you seen the ABC News interview[1] with General Keith Alexander, Director of the NSA? He is specifically (and brilliantly) asked if he is confident that the NSA has not broken Hong Kong law (in it's cyber espionage activities). His answer is a mumble about the NSA not violating US law. Under those circumstances I'd be somewhat careful with the word 'disappointed'... :) [1] http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/nsa-chief-keith-alexander-system-did-not-work-as-it-should-have-to-prevent-snowden-document-leaks/ http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/nsa-chief-keith...
- danbruc 13y ago
  »Are you sure you did not break US law when you hacked computer systems in the USA?« »I am sure we did not break Chinese law.«
  - coldtea 13y ago
    -- still, the answer is for "when they hacked computer systems in the USA". As for if they broke Chinese law "when they hacked computer systems IN CHINA", that's another question.
    - nano111 13y ago
      if you use a computer (phone) MADE IN CHINA, you can't expect any privacy
      - coldtea 13y ago
        Err, wait what? I thought we're technical people here.
        nano111 13y ago
        they are all made in china, don't you get it?

jlgreco 13y ago

> "[as there was] no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving" What exactly does the US think that Hong Kong should have done? Break the law? What a bunch of hypocrites.

alexqgb 13y ago
Actually, it's not hypocritical at all - which is the problem in a nutshell. We've gotten so used arbitrary enforcement of our own laws (e.g. Clapper) that we're shocked when others take the rule of law seriously. Or at least, more seriously than we do.
alan_cx 13y ago
It is consistent though.... Since we are now sure that non Americans are worth less than Americans to the US government, then it does actually make sense that Hong Kong law could be regarded as secondary and that the demands of US law reigns supreme. Sadly, I suppose that would be a demonstration of the "arrogance" the US is so often accused of. Dunno why they dont just leave the bloke to it. Just issue a standard warrant and he's basically never allowed back in the US unless he is prepared to face the charges. Olde days, "exile" was a decent punishment for some one in this position. Why not now? Surely never being allowed home for the rest of his life, to a country so great as the USA must be a terrible punishment for an American, no? What's wrong with a bit of olde skool exile?
- speeder 13y ago
  I guess that US knows that it is not great at all, and people will HAPPILY stay exiled (like for example, Bobby Fisher... that after being exiled in this way was very happy to take a Iceland citizenship and dump his US one)
- pedromorgan 13y ago
  "Sadly, I suppose that would be a demonstration of the "arrogance" the US is so often accused of." Accused my ass.. more like "IS".
- coldtea 13y ago

beedogs 13y ago

That's funny. I'm "disappointed" with America, and I think my reasons are better.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

alayne 13y ago

But they're not worried about the fact that more people are seeking political asylum from western countries? Is this our Roman Empire moment?

GoodIntentions 13y ago
It's passed already? thirty hours of Warcraft a week after working to pay your share of taxes is the new bread and circuses.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

jrockway 13y ago

I was looking forward to watching the extradition trial snake through the Hong Kong courts, but this is fun too. It really makes the US look like a lot of incompetents trying very hard to not have their incompetence exposed, and we all know how that ends. Snowden: 2, US: 0. (I'd also like to see a response from all the senators and op-ed columnists that were quick to remind us that Snowden was a "high school dropout" explain why someone so clearly inferior to everyone else can outsmart them so effortlessly.)

junto 13y ago
The US have the "long game". They'll get him (sadly) eventually.
- jrockway 13y ago
  Just like they got Bobby Fischer?
  - junto 13y ago
    Wasn't that just tax evasion?

eli 13y ago

Honest question: Is there any doubt that Snowden is guilty of the crimes he's charged with (e.g. "unauthorized communication of national defense information")?

krapp 13y ago
I don't see how there could be. Although there does seem to be some debate about whether or not what he did should be considered a crime, and whether he's guilty of everything he's charged with.
jstalin 13y ago
Yes. See here: http://www.popehat.com/2013/06/23/a-look-at-the-charges-against-edward-snowden/ http://www.popehat.com/2013/06/23/a-look-at-the-charges-agai... "Note that the second and third charges both require the feds to prove that Snowden's release of information to the press was harmful to the United States. This puts our government in the position of attempting to prove that it is harmful to release accurate information about how it is spying on us, and how it is misleading us about spying on us. Espionage charges usually describe someone with classified information leaking that information to powers hostile to the United States government."
- eli 13y ago
  That doesn't seem like it would be nearly as awkward nor as difficult to prove as is implied here. I would think secret details of spy programs would almost always harm national security (insofar as you believe spying can aide national security). The whole point of spying on communications depends on the targets not knowing they're being listened to. (Note: I'm not saying the NSA program is good or justified)
  - csense 13y ago
    "The statute...require[s] the government to prove that the defendant...communicated or made unavailable to an unauthorized person...in any manner prejudicial to the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States...classified information..." The middle part (labeled (3) by Popehat), as the blog correctly points out, is the reason this is a big controversy and not a straightforward spy case -- it's not at all clear that his disclosures were meant to benefit foreign powers, or that he was attempting to harm the United States.

gwgarry 13y ago

In other news Hong Kong dissappoint in NSA for breaking laws. Asks for extradition of NSA head to answer for charges of espionage.