6 ms·

People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. The Soviet Union collapsed 20 years ago, many European countries have been fre

by curt 13y ago

People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. The Soviet Union collapsed 20 years ago, many European countries have been free for less than 40 years. Don't take freedom for granted, it's not the steady state system, tyranny is. I'm sorry to say but a lot of countries will degrade back to authoritarianism within the next 10-20 years due to economy and political problems. They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

tokenizer 13y ago
I guess our best hope is that at least one country can retain it.
- selter01 13y ago
  I fail to see how that is our best hope.
VladRussian2 13y ago
>People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. Democracy was practiced by Greeks 2 thousand years ago. The system of couple of hundred people from the top of society gathered in one room making the decisions for the rest of society hasn't changed since than. And Magna Carta which codified the idea of freedom as a limit on government power is 800 years old.
- jivatmanx 13y ago
  Athens was a tiny city-state in a world where every other political. The Roman Republic did get fairly large and lasted a while, however. After the classical era and prior to WWII the only major democracies were Britain, the U.S. and intermittently, France.
icebraining 13y ago
Since we're quoting Franklin, this one is also relevant: (...) I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people, if well administered; and I believe, farther, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other.
- crusso 13y ago
  The USA has been like a successful startup. The first people in were the superstars who had vision and made things happen. The next arrivals were strong performers not scared of hard work who could at least understand the vision and keep the momentum going. Eventually at any new successful company, the hangers-on arrive. The "work hard, play hard" mantra that drove the first generations gives way to just a "play hard" one. The benefits created by the original visionaries are siphoned off mercilessly by those who didn't create them, can't create anything new, and don't seem to care that they're so destructive. With the decline of the company and jerks in power, anyone worth a damn goes elsewhere to find a better environment or if they do stay they tend to work around the system to get their jobs done or just content themselves operating at 1/4 speed for a paycheck. As more good people leave because of frustration, a death spiral ensues since upper management clowns no longer have anyone who can problem solve. We had a nice run. It's really too bad that we lost our way as a nation.
  - brown9-2 13y ago
    This is a poor analogy when you consider that people don't live for hundreds of years and thus there is no such thing as "hangers-on" arriving to a country. It also ignores all of the things that the founders did that we find reprehensible today (slave-owning), along with how far this country has come racially and in regards to civil rights in the past 50 years. It also ignores the fact that the size of the US economy has never been larger, and whatever "decline" you are referring to is purely subjective and mostly rosy retrospection. I wonder what it is about the USA that has made this type of "our good run is over, oh well" sentiment popular for several generations. People have been making complaints like this for several hundred years in this country.
threeseed 13y ago
I'm sorry to say but a lot of countries will degrade back to authoritarianism within the next 10-20 years due to economy and political problems. Like ? Name the countries.
- jessaustin 13y ago
  A good bet would be all those places with a long history and tradition of authoritarianism, which have only recently become less authoritarian: Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Burma, Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Russia, etc.
  - zxcdw 13y ago
    And growing authoritarianism everywhere too where there are economical and social problems. This probably includes many, if not all western countries to varying degree.
einhverfr 13y ago
> People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. What? Would you like a detailed list of counterexamples ranging from local farmer councils accepting or vetoing kings in early medieval Norway to the Greco-Roman governmental systems on which ours are based? Additionally, it is the case that up until the last 100 years or so, tyranny was constrained by the amount of enforcement effort required. Drones in particular I see as a very major threat here for that reason.
- pfortuny 13y ago
  I guess he does not consider systems in which esclavitude/serfdom existed as "democratic": your examples are more -in his mind, I guess- "aristochracies/oligarchies" than the "democracies" we now have. Athens is probably a mild exception (but with esclavitude). I agree with you, though. I am only trying to clarify what the parent was referring to.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    Well, Norway wasn't really serfdom (serfdom basically evolved from Roman slavery). It was rather a matter where free farmer districts endorsing one king or another. Keep in mind that the troop levies were locally managed but not on the continental feudal model, and these local assemblies were the primary legal bodies of their areas. I don't think it was any less democratic than the US today. Additionally keep in mind that during much of the time, if there was a dispute (and this was common before the Conversion), these districts could and did lead to the rise and fall of kings. But even if you say monarchies are out (in which case the UK today is not democratic), you still have Iceland, Gottland, and much more.

by curt 13y ago

tokenizer 13y ago

I guess our best hope is that at least one country can retain it.

selter01 13y ago
I fail to see how that is our best hope.

VladRussian2 13y ago

>People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. Democracy was practiced by Greeks 2 thousand years ago. The system of couple of hundred people from the top of society gathered in one room making the decisions for the rest of society hasn't changed since than. And Magna Carta which codified the idea of freedom as a limit on government power is 800 years old.

jivatmanx 13y ago
Athens was a tiny city-state in a world where every other political. The Roman Republic did get fairly large and lasted a while, however. After the classical era and prior to WWII the only major democracies were Britain, the U.S. and intermittently, France.

icebraining 13y ago

Since we're quoting Franklin, this one is also relevant: (...) I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people, if well administered; and I believe, farther, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other.

crusso 13y ago
The USA has been like a successful startup. The first people in were the superstars who had vision and made things happen. The next arrivals were strong performers not scared of hard work who could at least understand the vision and keep the momentum going. Eventually at any new successful company, the hangers-on arrive. The "work hard, play hard" mantra that drove the first generations gives way to just a "play hard" one. The benefits created by the original visionaries are siphoned off mercilessly by those who didn't create them, can't create anything new, and don't seem to care that they're so destructive. With the decline of the company and jerks in power, anyone worth a damn goes elsewhere to find a better environment or if they do stay they tend to work around the system to get their jobs done or just content themselves operating at 1/4 speed for a paycheck. As more good people leave because of frustration, a death spiral ensues since upper management clowns no longer have anyone who can problem solve. We had a nice run. It's really too bad that we lost our way as a nation.
- brown9-2 13y ago
  This is a poor analogy when you consider that people don't live for hundreds of years and thus there is no such thing as "hangers-on" arriving to a country. It also ignores all of the things that the founders did that we find reprehensible today (slave-owning), along with how far this country has come racially and in regards to civil rights in the past 50 years. It also ignores the fact that the size of the US economy has never been larger, and whatever "decline" you are referring to is purely subjective and mostly rosy retrospection. I wonder what it is about the USA that has made this type of "our good run is over, oh well" sentiment popular for several generations. People have been making complaints like this for several hundred years in this country.

threeseed 13y ago

I'm sorry to say but a lot of countries will degrade back to authoritarianism within the next 10-20 years due to economy and political problems. Like ? Name the countries.

jessaustin 13y ago
A good bet would be all those places with a long history and tradition of authoritarianism, which have only recently become less authoritarian: Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Burma, Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Russia, etc.
- zxcdw 13y ago
  And growing authoritarianism everywhere too where there are economical and social problems. This probably includes many, if not all western countries to varying degree.

einhverfr 13y ago

> People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. What? Would you like a detailed list of counterexamples ranging from local farmer councils accepting or vetoing kings in early medieval Norway to the Greco-Roman governmental systems on which ours are based? Additionally, it is the case that up until the last 100 years or so, tyranny was constrained by the amount of enforcement effort required. Drones in particular I see as a very major threat here for that reason.

pfortuny 13y ago
I guess he does not consider systems in which esclavitude/serfdom existed as "democratic": your examples are more -in his mind, I guess- "aristochracies/oligarchies" than the "democracies" we now have. Athens is probably a mild exception (but with esclavitude). I agree with you, though. I am only trying to clarify what the parent was referring to.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  Well, Norway wasn't really serfdom (serfdom basically evolved from Roman slavery). It was rather a matter where free farmer districts endorsing one king or another. Keep in mind that the troop levies were locally managed but not on the continental feudal model, and these local assemblies were the primary legal bodies of their areas. I don't think it was any less democratic than the US today. Additionally keep in mind that during much of the time, if there was a dispute (and this was common before the Conversion), these districts could and did lead to the rise and fall of kings. But even if you say monarchies are out (in which case the UK today is not democratic), you still have Iceland, Gottland, and much more.