18 ms·

The Hidden Costs of Starting a Company

63 points by bomatson 13y ago

ktrgardiner 13y ago
It seems as if the college idiom has graduated alongside the people going on to found startups. In college it was "Good grades. A social life. Sleep. Choose two because you can't have all three." Now it's the more mature but still very similar "Startup. Significant other. Health."
ank286 13y ago
Choosing 2 of 3 is true for early-stage startups. But once things take off, then you can get 3 out of 3 as you are able to delegate some of the work out to your employees. Then, you can achieve startup, health, significant other/family.
andy_adams 13y ago
I may be living in dream land, but I've been building my product without sacrificing my health, my family time, or my lifestyle. I've had to eat into some savings, and I've yet to make it a self-sustaining enterprise, but the idea that you need to sacrifice so severely for a business just seems irresponsible and exaggerated to me. Am I alone?
- lubujackson 13y ago
  Founding a startup is entirely a series of time management decisions. Build vs. buy vs. rent vs. skip. People that say you can't run a startup without sacrificing nearly everything are the same people that say programming on a schedule is impossible - it's only impossible if you don't FIRST focus on managing your time in an effective manner.
- omegant 13y ago
  I am with you, certainly I have my startup almost always in my mind, and I "work" (reply emails, research stuff, etc..) at strange hours. But I have family and my time with them and with friends is very necessary. In fact I have noticed that certain matters need their time and it doesn´t matter how much you push them, they are not going to take of faster. There is a kind of social tempo that an idea needs to engage, I am learning to relax and wait for those waves in order to ride them (there is still a big proportion of work that needs to be done and that can accumulate very fast if you let the time past).
- crazygringo 13y ago
  I agree with you. But it does mean that you need to plan, and maybe wait a year or two while you build up savings, etc. There's a lot of evidence showing that working more than 40 hours a week is counterproductive for employees, and results in negative productivity after a couple of weeks. I don't know why running a startup should be any different.
7Figures2Commas 13y ago
I never understand the point of these types of posts, which unfortunately seem way too common. There are lots of occupations that can be demanding and stressful (doctor, lawyer, investment banker, etc.). Why is it a surprise to anyone that a career requiring a significant commitment of one's time leaves less time for other activities? There are only 24 hours in a day and if you're ultimately not happy with how you're using them, the solution is to change how you're using them, not to spend time complaining or lamenting what you've chosen to give up.
- r0s 13y ago
  This highlights the disconnection between motive and work. I think the motive for most people to try the startup game is to free themselves from the constraints of typical work environments. Success means the freedom to use your time as you prefer, but there's no guarantee of success. The alternative is status-quo drudgery.
beat 13y ago
If you have no balance in your life, is it because startups are that hard, or because you have no balance? (Yes, it's a tautology, or perhaps recursion) Is the startup just a means of running away from other things by running toward something else? Is it fundamentally different from, say, alcoholism, or serial monogamy, or any other semi-consciously self-destructive behavior? Of course, there are sacrifices to be made. But ultimately, it's about priorities. If your startup is SO important that you're losing your health or your marriage, then there's something wrong with how you're prioritizing. The startup can still get MOST of your time (like any career), but without ruining you.
- bomatson 13y ago
  Definitely a good point - I would argue to takes time to reach this balance. The lack of work-life balance is a common trap many first-time entrepreneurs fall into. It honestly takes a lot of practice and discipline to get it right
chasing 13y ago
There's something off-putting about these kinds of articles. I think it's because there's an intentional subtext that start-up founders are some kind of rare breed of unwilling knights who have been called to noble action. "We must suffer so the world can experience the glory that is Docstoc." It's disingenuous. Start-up founders aren't being put-upon: They're making a conscious choice. Most people work harder than they want to and must make trade-offs. People with minimum wage jobs. Doctors, lawyers -- as others have mentioned. Pretty much everyone except the idle wealthy or unemployed. Pretty much everyone alive thinks they work too hard and wish they could spend more time with friends and family or working on hobbies, travelling, etc. Human condition.
- mattzito 13y ago
  Eeeexactly - I started to write almost exactly this and got distracted and returned to find you'd said it better than I could. Having a startup is certainly hard work for less pay than you might be making elsewhere. But you get all of the benefits of being your own boss to one degree or another, plus creating something from scratch, and the possible upside. I knew a guy who opened a lunch restaurant and catering business, and until it was making enough money, he'd work 6 days a week at the restaurant for lunch and catering gigs, and then also waited tables at a friend's restaurant and worked as a bartender at another friend's place. He basically got 4 hours of sleep a night, 7 days a week for three years. There was no brass ring or huge exit at the end of that path, he'd just decided at some point that he wanted to be his own boss. And then there's all the people out there who work two or three part-time jobs just to make ends meet, who never see their kids, who may not even have health insurance - where's their work/life balance? I personally feel privileged to have had the opportunity to start a company, make some money, have health insurance, and yes, worked my fair share of 60-hour weeks and all-nighters. I'm way better off than so many people in the US, forget about the rest of the world.
  - marcosscriven 13y ago
    Read half the article - he lost me when he used that hackneyed phrase '110%'
zwieback 13y ago
There's another hidden cost to starting a company - smart, young, energetic engineers are pulled away from established companies that are much more likely to succeed. I feel like the current balance has gone much too far into the startup direction and I've been waiting for some time for the pendulum to swing back.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
MicahWedemeyer 13y ago
I’ve lost friends because they thought I was crazy to try to build my own company. Huh? What kind of friend tosses you aside because you decide to start a company? That makes absolutely no sense. I'm trying to imagine this conversation: You: I'm starting my own company! Friend: I think that's a crazy idea. You'll probably fail. You: I'm confident I can do it. Friend: I disagree, and we're not friends any more. If anything, friends usually way underestimate the difficulty of running a business and just throw platitudes at you like, "Do it! Follow your dreams! With passion you can't fail!"
- skreech 13y ago
  Could be she lost friends (or superficial friends) because they were envious of her trying to build her own company, but on the surface they were saying "that will never work" instead of "I hate you for trying".
- abherrera 13y ago
  As a woman I've had friends, male and female, give their opinions of why I shouldn't build my company. Many of the conversations go back to the concept of I should be doing what most women my age do... get a great 9-5 job, meet a guy, and have a family. It's been hard and surprising to have very close friends, many who are very pro women's rights and liberal, express these view points. I would never tell any of these friends they were wrong to...get a job, meet someone, get married, and have a family. So friendships ended because of a lack of common ground. I like the conversation you created though. It actually would have been easier if your comments were true. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
nhebb 13y ago
There's another hidden cost directly related to this article. It's call opportunity cost. If you're interested in starting a company you are drawn to these kinds of articles, and ultimately they just waste your time. It's startup porn, and it takes away from time you could be working. [Raises right hand and swears to stay off HN the rest of the work day.]
- bomatson 13y ago
  You don't think a dialogue around work-life balance is relevant to entrepreneurs & startup employees?
carterschonwald 13y ago
Not every optimization problem has a global optima, but just as importantly, not every problem is a zero sum game with a bajillion shitty Pareto optima. Variety is good for the brain. Yes I'm sure you're addicted to the hedonic treadmill of your b2c webapp idea (ok, some folks are b2b, and some folks are doing things that aren't webapp). Recognize it, and manage it. Cognitive variety is healthy. Ask yourself this: once you're professionally accomplished and have nothing to prove, what will you be focusing on professionally and how will you juggle various priorities. Now ask yourself: why aren't you doing that already. Go do that. Unless its a bizarre fantasy that isn't possible in reality. :-)
mindcrime 13y ago
Startups are hard, let's go shopping? Meh. OK, yes, doing a startup can be a difficult process, and you probably have to make some serious sacrifices if you want to succeed. That's not a big revelation. In my own case, I've basically forgone social interaction, dating, spending time with friends, etc., in order to try and get this thing off the ground. No, it's not pleasant, but I remind myself that this state of affairs is (if things go well) temporary... we'll get some traction at some point, and I may be able to back off a little. One day, we'll be a profitable, growing company, we'll hire a CEO, and I'll designate myself "chief coffee mug washer" and step aside to spend time doing fun stuff. Maybe some of my friends will still be alive then, and still know who I am. And maybe I'll still be young enough to have some kind of chance of finding a girlfriend. Or not. Who knows? But who ever said any of this was going to be easy? Winning isn't normal, right?[1] [1]: http://www.jasonshen.com/2010/winning-isnt-normal/ http://www.jasonshen.com/2010/winning-isnt-normal/
- 6d0debc071 13y ago
  If you're not enjoying what you're doing, and you're sacrificing so much to do it, then there'd better be some pretty big pay-off at the other end. Pretty big gamble to be taking essentially on faith otherwise.
  - mindcrime 13y ago
    Aaah, but that's just it - I do enjoy what I'm doing. I'll be disappointed if there isn't a big payoff at the end, but I enjoy the process of creating, building, learning, growing and discovery. Working on this startup has taught me so much and taken me in so many interesting directions... I guess you could say I'm an adherent of the mindset that "startups are the new graduate school". I love learning new stuff and forcing myself to learn what I need to know to do this startup is a great experience in many ways. But like everything in life, there are always tradeoffs.
rokhayakebe 13y ago
I think (now) you can do a startup and still keep your friends, have great health, have fun, etc... You need to stop being reactionary and be visionary. Firstly you have to start spending quality time, and that means cutting off lots of the things you do at work that are only there to satisfy your need to feel like you are accomplishing things. You aren't. Quality time is true for family, and friend hours as well; just because you are there does not mean you are there. Many people who saw their parents regularly still feel they were very distant from them. If you are at home, be there mentally. If you are working, close that email window, and work. Secondly make more time by waking up earlier in the day. If you wake up at 6, you can go to bed at 10:45, and that leaves you with 16 hours to do your magic. Thirdly, stop being reactionary. If you have a plan other than the no-plan plan (translation "i don't know what to do so I am doing anything that comes to mind"), then you will know you can execute on it without having to spend 16 hours on it daily. While it is entirely understandable to work extremely long hours every now and then, it is probably more viable over the long term to have a plan and execute on it at your own pace. The things we will change the course of our startup (e.g. "we have to launch before July 7th") won't change them at all, besides if your startup is one event away from failure, even if it is Google launching a similar product, then it is safe to say it should not be called a business. Kick back. Write a plan. Execute it.
a_soncodi 13y ago
I disagree with the 'you must pick X of Y' absolutism. It appears to validate an oversimplified point, as do 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' and other clever one-liners. Choices involving time allocation don't have to be binary; each one carries an opportunity cost, the granularity of which we control. Although I can relate to many negatives from the article, it strikes me as equivalent to complaining about a cushy-but-boring day job while not willing to incur the risks of self-employment. The meat of the issue is to decide what the right balance is, to be aware of the trade-offs, and to not vilify 'startups' and blame them for our failure to make choices consistent with our values. "You know where you got that shirt!" - Charlie Murphy
Asparagirl 13y ago
From the article: "Jason Nazar, the founder and chief executive of Docstoc, said: “You can have your start-up and one thing. You can have your start-up and your health. You can have your start-up and your family. Or you can have your start-up and your significant other, but you can’t have multiples. If you try to have multiples, you’ll be poor at all of them.”" Actually, a wise philosopher named Jennifer Lopez (yep, J-Lo) said that first. Her quotation (paraphrasing here) was something to the effect of: "You can have a great career, a great relationship with your partner, or be a great parent. Pick any two."

63 points by bomatson 13y ago

It seems as if the college idiom has graduated alongside the people going on to found startups. In college it was "Good grades. A social life. Sleep. Choose two because you can't have all three." Now it's the more mature but still very similar "Startup. Significant other. Health."

ank286 13y ago

Choosing 2 of 3 is true for early-stage startups. But once things take off, then you can get 3 out of 3 as you are able to delegate some of the work out to your employees. Then, you can achieve startup, health, significant other/family.

andy_adams 13y ago

I may be living in dream land, but I've been building my product without sacrificing my health, my family time, or my lifestyle. I've had to eat into some savings, and I've yet to make it a self-sustaining enterprise, but the idea that you need to sacrifice so severely for a business just seems irresponsible and exaggerated to me. Am I alone?

lubujackson 13y ago
Founding a startup is entirely a series of time management decisions. Build vs. buy vs. rent vs. skip. People that say you can't run a startup without sacrificing nearly everything are the same people that say programming on a schedule is impossible - it's only impossible if you don't FIRST focus on managing your time in an effective manner.
omegant 13y ago
I am with you, certainly I have my startup almost always in my mind, and I "work" (reply emails, research stuff, etc..) at strange hours. But I have family and my time with them and with friends is very necessary. In fact I have noticed that certain matters need their time and it doesn´t matter how much you push them, they are not going to take of faster. There is a kind of social tempo that an idea needs to engage, I am learning to relax and wait for those waves in order to ride them (there is still a big proportion of work that needs to be done and that can accumulate very fast if you let the time past).
crazygringo 13y ago
I agree with you. But it does mean that you need to plan, and maybe wait a year or two while you build up savings, etc. There's a lot of evidence showing that working more than 40 hours a week is counterproductive for employees, and results in negative productivity after a couple of weeks. I don't know why running a startup should be any different.

7Figures2Commas 13y ago

I never understand the point of these types of posts, which unfortunately seem way too common. There are lots of occupations that can be demanding and stressful (doctor, lawyer, investment banker, etc.). Why is it a surprise to anyone that a career requiring a significant commitment of one's time leaves less time for other activities? There are only 24 hours in a day and if you're ultimately not happy with how you're using them, the solution is to change how you're using them, not to spend time complaining or lamenting what you've chosen to give up.

r0s 13y ago
This highlights the disconnection between motive and work. I think the motive for most people to try the startup game is to free themselves from the constraints of typical work environments. Success means the freedom to use your time as you prefer, but there's no guarantee of success. The alternative is status-quo drudgery.

beat 13y ago

If you have no balance in your life, is it because startups are that hard, or because you have no balance? (Yes, it's a tautology, or perhaps recursion) Is the startup just a means of running away from other things by running toward something else? Is it fundamentally different from, say, alcoholism, or serial monogamy, or any other semi-consciously self-destructive behavior? Of course, there are sacrifices to be made. But ultimately, it's about priorities. If your startup is SO important that you're losing your health or your marriage, then there's something wrong with how you're prioritizing. The startup can still get MOST of your time (like any career), but without ruining you.

bomatson 13y ago
Definitely a good point - I would argue to takes time to reach this balance. The lack of work-life balance is a common trap many first-time entrepreneurs fall into. It honestly takes a lot of practice and discipline to get it right

chasing 13y ago

There's something off-putting about these kinds of articles. I think it's because there's an intentional subtext that start-up founders are some kind of rare breed of unwilling knights who have been called to noble action. "We must suffer so the world can experience the glory that is Docstoc." It's disingenuous. Start-up founders aren't being put-upon: They're making a conscious choice. Most people work harder than they want to and must make trade-offs. People with minimum wage jobs. Doctors, lawyers -- as others have mentioned. Pretty much everyone except the idle wealthy or unemployed. Pretty much everyone alive thinks they work too hard and wish they could spend more time with friends and family or working on hobbies, travelling, etc. Human condition.

mattzito 13y ago
Eeeexactly - I started to write almost exactly this and got distracted and returned to find you'd said it better than I could. Having a startup is certainly hard work for less pay than you might be making elsewhere. But you get all of the benefits of being your own boss to one degree or another, plus creating something from scratch, and the possible upside. I knew a guy who opened a lunch restaurant and catering business, and until it was making enough money, he'd work 6 days a week at the restaurant for lunch and catering gigs, and then also waited tables at a friend's restaurant and worked as a bartender at another friend's place. He basically got 4 hours of sleep a night, 7 days a week for three years. There was no brass ring or huge exit at the end of that path, he'd just decided at some point that he wanted to be his own boss. And then there's all the people out there who work two or three part-time jobs just to make ends meet, who never see their kids, who may not even have health insurance - where's their work/life balance? I personally feel privileged to have had the opportunity to start a company, make some money, have health insurance, and yes, worked my fair share of 60-hour weeks and all-nighters. I'm way better off than so many people in the US, forget about the rest of the world.
- marcosscriven 13y ago
  Read half the article - he lost me when he used that hackneyed phrase '110%'

zwieback 13y ago

There's another hidden cost to starting a company - smart, young, energetic engineers are pulled away from established companies that are much more likely to succeed. I feel like the current balance has gone much too far into the startup direction and I've been waiting for some time for the pendulum to swing back.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

MicahWedemeyer 13y ago

I’ve lost friends because they thought I was crazy to try to build my own company. Huh? What kind of friend tosses you aside because you decide to start a company? That makes absolutely no sense. I'm trying to imagine this conversation: You: I'm starting my own company! Friend: I think that's a crazy idea. You'll probably fail. You: I'm confident I can do it. Friend: I disagree, and we're not friends any more. If anything, friends usually way underestimate the difficulty of running a business and just throw platitudes at you like, "Do it! Follow your dreams! With passion you can't fail!"

skreech 13y ago
Could be she lost friends (or superficial friends) because they were envious of her trying to build her own company, but on the surface they were saying "that will never work" instead of "I hate you for trying".
abherrera 13y ago
As a woman I've had friends, male and female, give their opinions of why I shouldn't build my company. Many of the conversations go back to the concept of I should be doing what most women my age do... get a great 9-5 job, meet a guy, and have a family. It's been hard and surprising to have very close friends, many who are very pro women's rights and liberal, express these view points. I would never tell any of these friends they were wrong to...get a job, meet someone, get married, and have a family. So friendships ended because of a lack of common ground. I like the conversation you created though. It actually would have been easier if your comments were true. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

nhebb 13y ago

There's another hidden cost directly related to this article. It's call opportunity cost. If you're interested in starting a company you are drawn to these kinds of articles, and ultimately they just waste your time. It's startup porn, and it takes away from time you could be working. [Raises right hand and swears to stay off HN the rest of the work day.]

bomatson 13y ago
You don't think a dialogue around work-life balance is relevant to entrepreneurs & startup employees?

carterschonwald 13y ago

Not every optimization problem has a global optima, but just as importantly, not every problem is a zero sum game with a bajillion shitty Pareto optima. Variety is good for the brain. Yes I'm sure you're addicted to the hedonic treadmill of your b2c webapp idea (ok, some folks are b2b, and some folks are doing things that aren't webapp). Recognize it, and manage it. Cognitive variety is healthy. Ask yourself this: once you're professionally accomplished and have nothing to prove, what will you be focusing on professionally and how will you juggle various priorities. Now ask yourself: why aren't you doing that already. Go do that. Unless its a bizarre fantasy that isn't possible in reality. :-)

mindcrime 13y ago

Startups are hard, let's go shopping? Meh. OK, yes, doing a startup can be a difficult process, and you probably have to make some serious sacrifices if you want to succeed. That's not a big revelation. In my own case, I've basically forgone social interaction, dating, spending time with friends, etc., in order to try and get this thing off the ground. No, it's not pleasant, but I remind myself that this state of affairs is (if things go well) temporary... we'll get some traction at some point, and I may be able to back off a little. One day, we'll be a profitable, growing company, we'll hire a CEO, and I'll designate myself "chief coffee mug washer" and step aside to spend time doing fun stuff. Maybe some of my friends will still be alive then, and still know who I am. And maybe I'll still be young enough to have some kind of chance of finding a girlfriend. Or not. Who knows? But who ever said any of this was going to be easy? Winning isn't normal, right?[1] [1]: http://www.jasonshen.com/2010/winning-isnt-normal/ http://www.jasonshen.com/2010/winning-isnt-normal/

6d0debc071 13y ago
If you're not enjoying what you're doing, and you're sacrificing so much to do it, then there'd better be some pretty big pay-off at the other end. Pretty big gamble to be taking essentially on faith otherwise.
- mindcrime 13y ago
  Aaah, but that's just it - I do enjoy what I'm doing. I'll be disappointed if there isn't a big payoff at the end, but I enjoy the process of creating, building, learning, growing and discovery. Working on this startup has taught me so much and taken me in so many interesting directions... I guess you could say I'm an adherent of the mindset that "startups are the new graduate school". I love learning new stuff and forcing myself to learn what I need to know to do this startup is a great experience in many ways. But like everything in life, there are always tradeoffs.

rokhayakebe 13y ago

I think (now) you can do a startup and still keep your friends, have great health, have fun, etc... You need to stop being reactionary and be visionary. Firstly you have to start spending quality time, and that means cutting off lots of the things you do at work that are only there to satisfy your need to feel like you are accomplishing things. You aren't. Quality time is true for family, and friend hours as well; just because you are there does not mean you are there. Many people who saw their parents regularly still feel they were very distant from them. If you are at home, be there mentally. If you are working, close that email window, and work. Secondly make more time by waking up earlier in the day. If you wake up at 6, you can go to bed at 10:45, and that leaves you with 16 hours to do your magic. Thirdly, stop being reactionary. If you have a plan other than the no-plan plan (translation "i don't know what to do so I am doing anything that comes to mind"), then you will know you can execute on it without having to spend 16 hours on it daily. While it is entirely understandable to work extremely long hours every now and then, it is probably more viable over the long term to have a plan and execute on it at your own pace. The things we will change the course of our startup (e.g. "we have to launch before July 7th") won't change them at all, besides if your startup is one event away from failure, even if it is Google launching a similar product, then it is safe to say it should not be called a business. Kick back. Write a plan. Execute it.

a_soncodi 13y ago

I disagree with the 'you must pick X of Y' absolutism. It appears to validate an oversimplified point, as do 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' and other clever one-liners. Choices involving time allocation don't have to be binary; each one carries an opportunity cost, the granularity of which we control. Although I can relate to many negatives from the article, it strikes me as equivalent to complaining about a cushy-but-boring day job while not willing to incur the risks of self-employment. The meat of the issue is to decide what the right balance is, to be aware of the trade-offs, and to not vilify 'startups' and blame them for our failure to make choices consistent with our values. "You know where you got that shirt!" - Charlie Murphy

Asparagirl 13y ago

From the article: "Jason Nazar, the founder and chief executive of Docstoc, said: “You can have your start-up and one thing. You can have your start-up and your health. You can have your start-up and your family. Or you can have your start-up and your significant other, but you can’t have multiples. If you try to have multiples, you’ll be poor at all of them.”" Actually, a wise philosopher named Jennifer Lopez (yep, J-Lo) said that first. Her quotation (paraphrasing here) was something to the effect of: "You can have a great career, a great relationship with your partner, or be a great parent. Pick any two."