5 ms·

I'd be extremely hesitant to trust these guys with a single cent right now. They requested $400k in their last Kickstarter and received over $3.3 million, but t

I'd be extremely hesitant to trust these guys with a single cent right now. They requested $400k in their last Kickstarter and received over $3.3 million, but that project (now called Broken Age) is STILL overbudget and delayed [1]. They're funneling profits from other games into it already, and now they're asking for more money so they can work on a new game? Or is this just their way of getting a much needed cash infusion after all other avenues have failed, so they can fund their ailing project and then worry about this one later? All this on top of the fact that their most recently released game, The Cave, was mediocre at best [2]. [1] http://www.gameinformer.com/games/broken_age/b/pc/archive/2013/04/26/double-fine-breaks-tradition-with-a-modern-adventure.aspx http://www.gameinformer.com/games/broken_age/b/pc/archive/20... > Broken Age was originally planned to be completed in April, but according to the documentary the schedule has been extended until September. The costs of a lengthened development have forced Double Fine to search for more money. Double Fine still welcomes supporters that missed the Kickstarter deadline, but in the documentary Isa Stamos, director of product development, affirms that the studio either has to dramatically increase funding or reduce the scope of the game. In Episode 8, Double Fine’s vice president of business development, Justin Bailey, reveals that profits from the release of Brütal Legend for PC will almost entirely feed into Broken Age. > Despite the desire to stick within the confines of the Kickstarter money, Double Fine is facing the reality many developers face in the middle of production. Facing setbacks and asking publishers for more time or money is common in the video game industry, but possibly going over budget with loads of crowd-funded money is new territory. [2] http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-cave http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-cave

LandoCalrissian 13y ago
It's Tim Schafer, he could ask for my firstborn and I would probably give it to him.
- jamornh 13y ago
  Keep in mind though, Tim's not going to be as involved on this particular project. He's not the lead on this one ;)
mey 13y ago
As a backer of Broken Age, I have similar fears. I do believe in their creative talent, but I wish this kickstarter was being done after Broken Age was delivered.
- datasage 13y ago
  Its better for the company and team continuity if this project gets off the ground before the other one finishes. If they wait until the end, they would end up going through a bit of turnover in the downtime between projects.
  - wmf 13y ago
    If you read their pitch, Massive Chalice has a separate team from Broken Age. I think inXile are the ones using the team continuity argument. Obviously it's better for the company if fans keep shoveling in money regardless of (lack of) any results, but you have to admit this sets a risky precedent.
    - commandar 13y ago
      It's a fairly similar logic though, isn't it? They have other teams coming off other projects, so rather than leave them idle until Broken Age is finished or going to a publisher for a project, they decided to Kickstart another independent project.
      - eropple 13y ago
        Independent-in-theory though, yeah? I mean, if Broken Age is running over budget (as they've acknowledged is the case), money has to come from somewhere. I don't think it's super unfair to wonder if that's what this is in part about--whether they hope to use these funds while Broken Age is in development and recoup it to fund Massive Chalice when Broken Age ships.
6thSigma 13y ago
They just raised a lot of cash from their Humble Bundle. I believe over $1m was raised, although I'm not sure how much of that went to Double Fine.
MartinCron 13y ago
I'd be extremely hesitant to trust these guys with a single cent right now And by, "these guys" you mean the backers of every single Kickstarter project, right?
sho_hn 13y ago
FWIW, inXile, the guys who ran a Kickstarter campain for "Torment: Tides of Numenera" to great success before delivering on the goal of their previous campaign for "Wasteland 2", explained that the company works most efficiently by rolling pre-production talent (concept artists, writers to a degree, etc.) onto a new project when the previous product goes into full-on production, instead of having them sit idle. But after watching the Double Fine documentary vids I don't get the feeling the same explanation would apply here - employees there seem to specialize less and be more flexible in their roles. That said, I'll be backing this because those documentary vids are incredibly entertaining. Even if "Broken Age" never makes it out the door or winds up mediocre, I'll easily have gotten enough for my buck to make the exchange feel worthwhile to me (at the same time I'll admit that seems worrying even to me, turning development into a sort of performance art ...).
nostromo 13y ago
If you'll allow me to be a bit rude, why do you care? I mean, it's $20 dude. I understand the anger and skepticism a person feels when they make $30k a year and back a project for $50 that fails. But I don't understand it on HN. We're programmers and entrepreneurs. We know that timelines and resources are difficult to forecast. We know that companies and projects fail, even when they have millions of dollars to spend. We also generally make enough that $20 lost is negligible. Yet everytime I look at the comments section for a Kickstarter I see mostly permutations of this comment.
- TillE 13y ago
  HN seems to view Kickstarter mostly through the lens of hardware projects, which are incredibly risky and done with very thin margins. Game development by an experienced team is not quite a guaranteed thing, but it is a much safer bet.
  - sejje 13y ago
    Agree with this. The risk should be very minimal that they can't, at the very least, ship the game as expected. Whether they can make it a success is a different kind of risk.
- papsosouid 13y ago
  >fraud is totally cool because we're programmers and entrepreneurs No, it really isn't. This is not a kickstarter to make a game, this is a kickstarter to help pay for the game they already made a kickstarter for before. It isn't about risk, it is about fraud.
  - levesque 13y ago
    Interesting how a lot of people in here assume this is a fraud to support their previous project. Why couldn't they honestly be starting a new project with a separate team?
    - 6thSigma 13y ago
kelnage 13y ago
So I can't deny that Double Fine are having to find additional funds for Broken Age - it's true and they've been using multiple different ways. However, I think that's mainly because the scope of the game increased significantly due to way the Kickstarter blew up as it did - at the time I don't think anyone expected it to reach $3 million and as such, expectations are higher. However, I can definitely say that judging Double Fine on purely their last game is a mistake. They've created many games that have had very favourable reviews in recent history (for example: Stacking, Costume Quest, Brutal Legend) [1]. [1] http://www.metacritic.com/company/double-fine-productions http://www.metacritic.com/company/double-fine-productions
- com2kid 13y ago
  > However, I think that's mainly because the scope of the game increased significantly due to way the Kickstarter blew up as it did - at the time I don't think anyone expected it to reach $3 million and as such, expectations are higher. The excuse "we got more money, so expanded the project scope too much, so now we need even more money" does not bode well for their project management abilities. Part of project management is knowing how far one can expand scope given additional funding. I problem I see with a LOT of Kickstarter projects, especially the video game ones, is that they do a very poor job estimating additional costs. More than once I have seen a project say "and if we raise another $10k we'll port to every platform known to mankind! I have even seen projects claim they will go from being a PC to adding iPad support! For a few game genres, sure, that may work, but for the most part? The entire game balance chances, reaction times change, the entire UI changes, performance characteristics of your platform have changed dramatically! Engines like Unity may help, but you still have to tweak the ever living daylights out of any sort of reaction based gameplay to make up for the differences in control methodology, and that means a lot of game balance work. It is rarely as cheap as many developers make it out to be. But that one (wide spread) example aside, Double Fine needs to provide some reassurances that they know how to properly scope out a project. Being under the yoke of a publisher does provides one with a hard deadline, schedules, and someone who says no. That is often a useful attribute! (See: Why programmers have project managers!)
  - 13y ago
binarycrusader 13y ago
Hesitant to "trust these guys" -- the same guys that pointedly stated in their video and materials that the DoubleFine adventure could be a wild success or complete failure? They made it very clear from the beginning that this was new territory, something not done before, and the risk was high. As for starting another game before finishing another, that's a silly argument. There's this mistaken belief amongst the general populace that software companies can only work on one project at a time. That couldn't be farther removed from reality. The reality is that any large software project requires the efforts of dozens (and sometimes hundreds or thousands) of people all of which perform different tasks. There are many parts of software projects where not all of the staff can be involved or working on it, or where their portion of the work is done. At that point, you're left with the choice of firing the people you don't need, or paying them to sit around and do nothing. Isn't the more logical choice to start another project so you can keep those people employed and pay them to do something meaningful? The fact that the source of their funding for one of their current projects was kickstarter should not restrict them from starting another project using kickstarter.
NoPiece 13y ago
When you have a small company like Double Fine, fighting for creativity and independence, and competing in a space dominated by giant game publishers and media companies, I vote to give them the benefit of the doubt. Even if it fails, I'm happy to support the effort. Also, the documentary coverage that was part of the last Kickstarter already made that more than worthwhile for me. It provided a great inside view of the development process. The game is just a bonus at this point.
jasonlotito 13y ago
2 pieces of gross misinformation: > They requested $400k in their last Kickstarter and received over $3.3 million, but that project (now called Broken Age) is STILL overbudget They learned from this, and have restructured what they are asking for this time around, as well as where they are offering bonuses. > and delayed [1] It's only delayed if you assumed you were making a pre-order on KickStarter, which is not what KickStarter does in anyway. It's been clear from the beginning. Imagining it's a unicorn does not make it a unicorn, however.
arrrg 13y ago
And if you are a backer you get beautifully made videos of this – and it’s glorious. All the tough decisions, all the problems, all the decision making processes and compromises, all the joy and sadness. This was the deal from the beginning and they were very explicit about it. I mean, this whole thing got started because they wanted to document the game making process – warts and all – but you cannot typically do that with a publisher on board. They had to do their own thing. If you are not a backer it’s very, very easy to get the wrong impression about this – but if you are a backer there is nothing better than getting an update email with a new video on their progress. This shit is fucking awesome. I don’t even care whether there ever is a game. If this fails and I have it all on video I will be happy. (Well, I will be sad because I have empathy, but I will have enjoyed the ride.) I got hours of excellent video material for next to no money. I don’t think you are really getting this. And it’s easy to not get it if you are not a backer. (Plus, The Cave has nothing to do with this. That game was made by different people. And I would call it a polarizing game, not a mediocre one.)
visural 13y ago
After viewing all the negativity on here, I'd actually recommend people that feel the same _should_ stay away from Kickstarter. If the only value to you is getting the game itself, then wait for it to be finished and buy it through Steam or your store of choice. Kickstarter is meant for people who find value in not just receiving the product, but in watching, and discussing it through its development and also allowing creative people they respect the opportunity to the do the work they'd like to do. Most of the negativity in these comments seems to be from people that just "want the game". Well that isn't what you signed up for. If you feel burned by the first one, you would be well advised to stay away from future Kickstarters, from Double Fine, or from any other developer.
- arrrg 13y ago
  Yeah, if this is your thinking you should just stay away from Kickstarter. It’s not for you and that’s ok – but please, please don’t change the way Kickstarter is by your stuffy insistence that it has to be something it is not. Just, please stay away from it and let people have their fun.
- jdboyd 13y ago
  And that is exactly why I will pass on this kickstarter and wait until it hits steam.
- egypturnash 13y ago
  I feel I have to disagree. Kickstarter has been used quite a lot by a whole bunch of artists to deliver comic books; if you look at money brought in, it's consistently ranged from being the #2-5 publisher of comics in the US. While some of these comics were done on the "here's a pitch and my track record, pay me for a year's work in advance and I'll make this" model that the Double Fine adventure is being made on, the vast majority of them were not - most of them are about "here's some stuff I already drew, I need this much in preorders to make a print run economical." This goes all the way from little campaigns like the one I ran[1] up to huge ones like the $1250k one for the Order of the Stick reprints[2]. Kickstarter has helped make independent comics a lot easier to sell. It's also been a huge boon to board game makers, who work in a similar "make the thing, then seek money to publish it" model. It is quite possible to run a successful Kickstarter based solely on delivering the product to the audience, with absolutely none of the glimpse into the creative process that Double Fine is providing. That said: be aware of what you're getting into, be prepared for it to never happen. [1] http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/52397119/decrypting-rita-volume-1 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/52397119/decrypting-rita... [2] http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-t...
Aloisius 13y ago
All this on top of the fact that their most recently released game, The Cave, was mediocre at best [2]. How is a 67 on Metacritic "mediocre at best"? It had mixed critical reviews and generally positive user reviews.
ekianjo 13y ago
On top of that they used Humble Bundle to obviously put more funding to Broken Age. Indie developers not being able to manage their cash is funny. They wanted freedom and responsibility, now they have it, and they realize that having publishers behind your back can be a good thing, actually, to stop focusing on funding the whole time and focus on the game.
asb 13y ago
I don't see it as at all odd or surprising that the profits of the PC release of Brutal Legend will go in to the game. Double Fine will be reaping all of the profit from Broken Age, so it seems sensible that they carry some of the risk through investing their own money.

LandoCalrissian 13y ago

It's Tim Schafer, he could ask for my firstborn and I would probably give it to him.

jamornh 13y ago
Keep in mind though, Tim's not going to be as involved on this particular project. He's not the lead on this one ;)

mey 13y ago

As a backer of Broken Age, I have similar fears. I do believe in their creative talent, but I wish this kickstarter was being done after Broken Age was delivered.

datasage 13y ago
Its better for the company and team continuity if this project gets off the ground before the other one finishes. If they wait until the end, they would end up going through a bit of turnover in the downtime between projects.
- wmf 13y ago
  If you read their pitch, Massive Chalice has a separate team from Broken Age. I think inXile are the ones using the team continuity argument. Obviously it's better for the company if fans keep shoveling in money regardless of (lack of) any results, but you have to admit this sets a risky precedent.
  - commandar 13y ago
    It's a fairly similar logic though, isn't it? They have other teams coming off other projects, so rather than leave them idle until Broken Age is finished or going to a publisher for a project, they decided to Kickstart another independent project.
    - eropple 13y ago
      Independent-in-theory though, yeah? I mean, if Broken Age is running over budget (as they've acknowledged is the case), money has to come from somewhere. I don't think it's super unfair to wonder if that's what this is in part about--whether they hope to use these funds while Broken Age is in development and recoup it to fund Massive Chalice when Broken Age ships.

6thSigma 13y ago

They just raised a lot of cash from their Humble Bundle. I believe over $1m was raised, although I'm not sure how much of that went to Double Fine.

MartinCron 13y ago

I'd be extremely hesitant to trust these guys with a single cent right now And by, "these guys" you mean the backers of every single Kickstarter project, right?

sho_hn 13y ago

FWIW, inXile, the guys who ran a Kickstarter campain for "Torment: Tides of Numenera" to great success before delivering on the goal of their previous campaign for "Wasteland 2", explained that the company works most efficiently by rolling pre-production talent (concept artists, writers to a degree, etc.) onto a new project when the previous product goes into full-on production, instead of having them sit idle. But after watching the Double Fine documentary vids I don't get the feeling the same explanation would apply here - employees there seem to specialize less and be more flexible in their roles. That said, I'll be backing this because those documentary vids are incredibly entertaining. Even if "Broken Age" never makes it out the door or winds up mediocre, I'll easily have gotten enough for my buck to make the exchange feel worthwhile to me (at the same time I'll admit that seems worrying even to me, turning development into a sort of performance art ...).

nostromo 13y ago

If you'll allow me to be a bit rude, why do you care? I mean, it's $20 dude. I understand the anger and skepticism a person feels when they make $30k a year and back a project for $50 that fails. But I don't understand it on HN. We're programmers and entrepreneurs. We know that timelines and resources are difficult to forecast. We know that companies and projects fail, even when they have millions of dollars to spend. We also generally make enough that $20 lost is negligible. Yet everytime I look at the comments section for a Kickstarter I see mostly permutations of this comment.

TillE 13y ago
HN seems to view Kickstarter mostly through the lens of hardware projects, which are incredibly risky and done with very thin margins. Game development by an experienced team is not quite a guaranteed thing, but it is a much safer bet.
- sejje 13y ago
  Agree with this. The risk should be very minimal that they can't, at the very least, ship the game as expected. Whether they can make it a success is a different kind of risk.
papsosouid 13y ago
>fraud is totally cool because we're programmers and entrepreneurs No, it really isn't. This is not a kickstarter to make a game, this is a kickstarter to help pay for the game they already made a kickstarter for before. It isn't about risk, it is about fraud.
- levesque 13y ago
  Interesting how a lot of people in here assume this is a fraud to support their previous project. Why couldn't they honestly be starting a new project with a separate team?
  - 6thSigma 13y ago

kelnage 13y ago

So I can't deny that Double Fine are having to find additional funds for Broken Age - it's true and they've been using multiple different ways. However, I think that's mainly because the scope of the game increased significantly due to way the Kickstarter blew up as it did - at the time I don't think anyone expected it to reach $3 million and as such, expectations are higher. However, I can definitely say that judging Double Fine on purely their last game is a mistake. They've created many games that have had very favourable reviews in recent history (for example: Stacking, Costume Quest, Brutal Legend) [1]. [1] http://www.metacritic.com/company/double-fine-productions http://www.metacritic.com/company/double-fine-productions

com2kid 13y ago
> However, I think that's mainly because the scope of the game increased significantly due to way the Kickstarter blew up as it did - at the time I don't think anyone expected it to reach $3 million and as such, expectations are higher. The excuse "we got more money, so expanded the project scope too much, so now we need even more money" does not bode well for their project management abilities. Part of project management is knowing how far one can expand scope given additional funding. I problem I see with a LOT of Kickstarter projects, especially the video game ones, is that they do a very poor job estimating additional costs. More than once I have seen a project say "and if we raise another $10k we'll port to every platform known to mankind! I have even seen projects claim they will go from being a PC to adding iPad support! For a few game genres, sure, that may work, but for the most part? The entire game balance chances, reaction times change, the entire UI changes, performance characteristics of your platform have changed dramatically! Engines like Unity may help, but you still have to tweak the ever living daylights out of any sort of reaction based gameplay to make up for the differences in control methodology, and that means a lot of game balance work. It is rarely as cheap as many developers make it out to be. But that one (wide spread) example aside, Double Fine needs to provide some reassurances that they know how to properly scope out a project. Being under the yoke of a publisher does provides one with a hard deadline, schedules, and someone who says no. That is often a useful attribute! (See: Why programmers have project managers!)
- 13y ago

binarycrusader 13y ago

Hesitant to "trust these guys" -- the same guys that pointedly stated in their video and materials that the DoubleFine adventure could be a wild success or complete failure? They made it very clear from the beginning that this was new territory, something not done before, and the risk was high. As for starting another game before finishing another, that's a silly argument. There's this mistaken belief amongst the general populace that software companies can only work on one project at a time. That couldn't be farther removed from reality. The reality is that any large software project requires the efforts of dozens (and sometimes hundreds or thousands) of people all of which perform different tasks. There are many parts of software projects where not all of the staff can be involved or working on it, or where their portion of the work is done. At that point, you're left with the choice of firing the people you don't need, or paying them to sit around and do nothing. Isn't the more logical choice to start another project so you can keep those people employed and pay them to do something meaningful? The fact that the source of their funding for one of their current projects was kickstarter should not restrict them from starting another project using kickstarter.

NoPiece 13y ago

When you have a small company like Double Fine, fighting for creativity and independence, and competing in a space dominated by giant game publishers and media companies, I vote to give them the benefit of the doubt. Even if it fails, I'm happy to support the effort. Also, the documentary coverage that was part of the last Kickstarter already made that more than worthwhile for me. It provided a great inside view of the development process. The game is just a bonus at this point.

jasonlotito 13y ago

2 pieces of gross misinformation: > They requested $400k in their last Kickstarter and received over $3.3 million, but that project (now called Broken Age) is STILL overbudget They learned from this, and have restructured what they are asking for this time around, as well as where they are offering bonuses. > and delayed [1] It's only delayed if you assumed you were making a pre-order on KickStarter, which is not what KickStarter does in anyway. It's been clear from the beginning. Imagining it's a unicorn does not make it a unicorn, however.

arrrg 13y ago

And if you are a backer you get beautifully made videos of this – and it’s glorious. All the tough decisions, all the problems, all the decision making processes and compromises, all the joy and sadness. This was the deal from the beginning and they were very explicit about it. I mean, this whole thing got started because they wanted to document the game making process – warts and all – but you cannot typically do that with a publisher on board. They had to do their own thing. If you are not a backer it’s very, very easy to get the wrong impression about this – but if you are a backer there is nothing better than getting an update email with a new video on their progress. This shit is fucking awesome. I don’t even care whether there ever is a game. If this fails and I have it all on video I will be happy. (Well, I will be sad because I have empathy, but I will have enjoyed the ride.) I got hours of excellent video material for next to no money. I don’t think you are really getting this. And it’s easy to not get it if you are not a backer. (Plus, The Cave has nothing to do with this. That game was made by different people. And I would call it a polarizing game, not a mediocre one.)

visural 13y ago

After viewing all the negativity on here, I'd actually recommend people that feel the same _should_ stay away from Kickstarter. If the only value to you is getting the game itself, then wait for it to be finished and buy it through Steam or your store of choice. Kickstarter is meant for people who find value in not just receiving the product, but in watching, and discussing it through its development and also allowing creative people they respect the opportunity to the do the work they'd like to do. Most of the negativity in these comments seems to be from people that just "want the game". Well that isn't what you signed up for. If you feel burned by the first one, you would be well advised to stay away from future Kickstarters, from Double Fine, or from any other developer.

arrrg 13y ago
Yeah, if this is your thinking you should just stay away from Kickstarter. It’s not for you and that’s ok – but please, please don’t change the way Kickstarter is by your stuffy insistence that it has to be something it is not. Just, please stay away from it and let people have their fun.
jdboyd 13y ago
And that is exactly why I will pass on this kickstarter and wait until it hits steam.
egypturnash 13y ago
I feel I have to disagree. Kickstarter has been used quite a lot by a whole bunch of artists to deliver comic books; if you look at money brought in, it's consistently ranged from being the #2-5 publisher of comics in the US. While some of these comics were done on the "here's a pitch and my track record, pay me for a year's work in advance and I'll make this" model that the Double Fine adventure is being made on, the vast majority of them were not - most of them are about "here's some stuff I already drew, I need this much in preorders to make a print run economical." This goes all the way from little campaigns like the one I ran[1] up to huge ones like the $1250k one for the Order of the Stick reprints[2]. Kickstarter has helped make independent comics a lot easier to sell. It's also been a huge boon to board game makers, who work in a similar "make the thing, then seek money to publish it" model. It is quite possible to run a successful Kickstarter based solely on delivering the product to the audience, with absolutely none of the glimpse into the creative process that Double Fine is providing. That said: be aware of what you're getting into, be prepared for it to never happen. [1] http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/52397119/decrypting-rita-volume-1 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/52397119/decrypting-rita... [2] http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-t...

Aloisius 13y ago

All this on top of the fact that their most recently released game, The Cave, was mediocre at best [2]. How is a 67 on Metacritic "mediocre at best"? It had mixed critical reviews and generally positive user reviews.

ekianjo 13y ago

On top of that they used Humble Bundle to obviously put more funding to Broken Age. Indie developers not being able to manage their cash is funny. They wanted freedom and responsibility, now they have it, and they realize that having publishers behind your back can be a good thing, actually, to stop focusing on funding the whole time and focus on the game.

asb 13y ago

I don't see it as at all odd or surprising that the profits of the PC release of Brutal Legend will go in to the game. Double Fine will be reaping all of the profit from Broken Age, so it seems sensible that they carry some of the risk through investing their own money.