7 ms·

North Korea's silent football matches

54 points by rickyconnolly 13y ago

rikacomet 13y ago
As long as they don't nuke anyone, I believe North Koreans have every right to live as they want, no matter how strange/hilarious/unmeaning/suppressed their lifestyle may seem to us. EDIT: Explanation-https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694012
- thedrbrian 13y ago
  Apart from the elite do any North Koreans actually want to live the way they do?
  - kpierre 13y ago
    i don't think any of the elites want to live the way they do, too. but they're stuck in the loop like everyone else.
    - rikacomet 13y ago
      and you both are saying that from experience? You know the elites, and the poor, more than what we have seen through the media? No, unless you are North Korean citizens for years, it is hard to grasp the truth. Of course, we all made this judgement, by comparing our life, and putting ourself in what NK's seem like living in right now, and adjudged that we would hate such a life, so the actual North Koreans must be hating their life as well. But truth be told, Many of the people there haven't even seen foreigners in their whole life, they are like a modern tribe, living in seclusion, we have to let their curiosity take its course, instead of pointing fingers at them saying, "look how boring is there football" "look at that, they don't have any fast food chains " etc etc.
      - cturner 13y ago
        Your first comment wasn't so good. But here you pose a great thought experiment. To run with your point for a moment - it is possible to consider the idea of a caste system. Most hacker news readers would be disgusted at it, but you could imagine it being run humanely, and the people there would be content to live as they are. Here's my rule zero of political freedom: do you live in fear of a knock on the door in the middle of the night? So long as someone lives-and-lets-live, they should never need to live in fear of an authority with a power to arbitrarily do nasty things to them. To me - that's valid for North Korea, The Lives of Others, middle eastern dictatorships, black helicopters, people who live in gangland Baltimore, domestic violence, children, pets, farm animals and the cold war.
        rikacomet 13y ago
        Yes, you have a very good point regarding caste system. About first post being, not that good, well I got that feeling (haha) No shit! well, there is a need for scrutiny, as to why there haven't been a popular revolt, against the government, if people are that oppressed, as we are being lead to believe.
        cturner 13y ago
        Regarding the caste thing, had some more thoughts. Django Unchained plays with this. At first, you don't know where Stephen fits in. Is he a slave who "knows his place"? But he's so disrespectful! Gradually you learn that he has carved out a special role for himself at the expense of others. There's lots of room for talking about knocks on the door, and who fears who in Pulp Fiction too. Thinking about North Korea is interesting because the media coverage is so slim. What can I trust? Maybe I'm just living in a personalised version of the Truman Show. But the closest we have to a knock on the door is fear of economic strife, and very rare but overhyped incidents of domestic terrorism. > why there haven't been a popular revolt, against > the government, if people are that oppressed Revolution is a rare thing. I assume North Koreans have to deal with twisted language as well, and they're not allowed to talk to one another to work out their ideas. Marxism is filled with weasel words like "permanent revolution". Imagine how your brain would work if you had been born and bred on a diet of astrology, and taught that even discussing interpretations of what the people with guns say will have immediate, dire consequences. Most of history is dictatorship and compliance. What we have at the moment feels normal because it's what we know. But really it's a special exception to everything that has come before, and the reality for most of the people who are alive even today. I'm glad you challenged the post, I didn't have a bunch of these ideas an hour ago.
  - Sprint 13y ago
    I do not know, do you?
- nodata 13y ago
  I believe North Koreans have every _right_ to live as they want Do you realise that this article is highlighting the point that they _don't_ have this right?
  - rikacomet 13y ago
    and who exactly adjudged that, that they don't have this right? You? Me? Media? After having seen, what is the policy with foreign journalist? Do you say that any media report is 100% free of bias?
    - cs648 13y ago
      I think nodata is saying that the North Korean government has taken that right away from them.
      - rikacomet 13y ago
        And I think, I said it clearly, that what is the proof of, that right being taken away is something NK's want to fight for? even if what nodata said is true, that it is indeed being taken away. The reporting of our own media? which are not being allowed into NK, or if they are, are they being allowed the time, freedom to scrutinize? And if someone would think, that because they are disallowing media, they have something to hide, while indeed they have! but would you allow your neighbor to come inside your house, and get the truth about any fight you had within your family?
        alinajaf 13y ago
        If only 10% of one of the accounts of the concentration camp escapees is true, then NK is in the same cluster as Syria and Congo in terms of treatment of its people. Its reasonable to assume that the right to not have your malnourished six year old daughter beaten to death for stealing a few corn kernels is one that homo sapiens everywhere find worth fighting for.
        delackner 13y ago
- da_n 13y ago
  I agree in principle but the fact is most North Koreans do not have the right to live as they want.
- bluedevil2k 13y ago
  So you really think if they just opened up the border to South Korea and let people go as they please, NO ONE would leave the glorious nation of North Korea because it's how they want to live?
  - rikacomet 13y ago
    and you believe that every last North Korean would go to South Korea, supposedly if that is true, you base this belief on?
    - bluedevil2k 13y ago
      An adult's understanding of how people behave, and a parent's desire to give their children a better life...not a 21 year old's ignorant view of the world.
      - rikacomet 13y ago
        And of all things, you had to go to my profile, and adjudge me ignorant, based on my age. Well, I don't mind that. Some people are built that way to find illogical reasons to deny someone's opinion. People here, of all the people, know better that wisdom is not based on age. It is rare at young age, but not impossible.
        bluedevil2k 13y ago
        You're confusing "intelligence" and "wisdom". Wisdom is, without a doubt, based on age. It's something that can only be obtained through years and years of experience dealing with people, places, and situations in the world. While you may have more intelligence than an 80 year old Korean War vet, I don't think anyone would believe you have more wisdom.
        GhotiFish 13y ago
        A note on wisdom: A 21 year old posts advocating that we are almost certainly acting reactionary to a different culture. Now if a 35 year old were to come along and outright dismiss him because he's too young, oblivious to how bad that would look to a herd of hackers, then that would challenge your assertion that wisdom is earned from experience. My moneys on the 21 year old but hey, I'm 25. You know us young fools, right?
- DLay 13y ago
  I'm sorry, did I miss the sarcasm in this post? Please peruse these hand drawn pictures done by a North Korean defector depicting what life is like at one of their concentration camp--at your leisure, of course: http://imgur.com/a/648Mv http://imgur.com/a/648Mv http://www.northkoreanrefugees.com/2007-09-atbirth.htm http://www.northkoreanrefugees.com/2007-09-atbirth.htm To add to that, North Koreans have this policy called "third generation punishment". If a person does something that's frowned upon, like complaining about food rations, he/she gets executed with the knowledge that three generations of his/her family will be tortured to death at the camps. Many times the family gets sent without knowing the original family members' crime, just that they are now prisoners. If someone is born there it is a lifetime of slavery. --------------- "I believe North Koreans have every right to live as they want, no matter how strange/hilarious/unmeaning/suppressed their lifestyle may seem to us." Do you wish to retract that statement now?
  - rikacomet 13y ago
    India has a policy called AFSPA, MCOCA, and POTA, that basically allow armed forces, not civil forces, to arrest, shoot, or kill any person without any trial, proof. Prevalent in at least two states: J&K and Nagaland. Turnout in last elections was near the national average. Rest is upto you to adjudge.
    - alinajaf 13y ago
      I'm not quite sure how that answers DLays points. Care to elaborate? He/she was pointing out that people the children, and childrens children of people who are deemed enemies of the state are not free to live how they want.
- RobinL 13y ago
  You're assuming they live as they want to. Read this and think again: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nothing-Envy-Lives-North-Korea/dp/184708141X http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nothing-Envy-Lives-North-Korea/dp/18...
- ctdonath 13y ago
  The whole point is that they DON'T get to live anywhere close to how they want. The slightest dissent or disobedience is met with vicious punishment or death. They can't leave, even if they want to. Ongoing starvation is normal. They act odd at the football game because they never go to football games and have no idea how to act; most there likely were told "attend or die". If they "like" this it's because they at not allowed to know any options. You know that recent news story of three women rescued from 10 years brutal captivity? North Korea is that on a national scale.
- fredoliveira 13y ago
  Being a contrarian will make you look interesting in some cases, ignorant in so many others. You should be a little more informed about what's happening in North Korea and about how exactly their people have "every right to live as they want".
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- return0 13y ago
  Dictatorships are not unknown to the west. We know though, that it is more productive and fulfilling to live in a free democratic society. True, people in dictatorships can claim even a high level of satisfaction and happiness, but it's mostly a case of ignorance being a bliss. You are dismissing the power of oppression in altering minds. We have that in the west too, the media, yet we believe its marginally better due to pluralism
- robomartin 13y ago
  A number of issues with your position. First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do. The North Korean people will not nuke anyone, ever. If that happens it will be done by their government. Be sure to understand that distinction as you go forward in life. The hundred million people killed during the world wars died because of decisions and actions taken by governments, not farmers in Germany, teachers in Japan, taxi drivers in New York or restaurant owners in London. War is one of the most regrettable failures of our collective approaches to government. As for the rest, read the Allegory of the Cave. Someone who only knows shadows does not know reality. You seem to imply this is perfectly acceptable. I think most of the negative reaction you are seeing is because, of course, this idea is deeply flawed and, at some level, really cruel. I'll take this to an uncomfortable extreme. Suppose the town next to yours has a culture of child abuse. That's just what they do. Every home has a dungeon and kids are kept in there until they become adults. No education is provided at all. You and I look at this from the outside. You say it is OK no matter how horrible this might look to us. I say it is not. I know you've had criticism for being young. I won't go there other than to say that there are a lot of indoctrinated young idealists in the HN audience. In some cultures they come out of school indoctrinated and fail to understand the world and their environment until perhaps decades later. I'd venture to say people don't really get it until somewhere around 30 to 40 years of age. Start by reading some of the Greek philosophers. I am not suggesting you take their writings as facts as much as I would propose they might teach how to reason and view things from many angles. I don't intend this to imply you are ignorant. Not even close. It's something from my own education I continue to find value in over the years and I thought I'd share that with you.
  - GhotiFish 13y ago
    Out of curiosity. What was he indoctrinated into thinking? That objective morality doesn't exist? Speaking of indoctrination, there is a contingent of people who actively view this as child abuse. Your metaphor is a reality, one town (I'm sure more than one, actually) really does actively abuse their children in the view of another. Do you still say it's not ok? Even when the one abusing that child is your next door neighbor, even when you don't hold the morality of this other demographic? We live in an antagonistic society, where we compete to produce, The weakest of us fall to the wayside, are we moral? If that town abusing their children followed your law, they would of wiped out the atheists, for abusing their children. Not teaching your children about god is child abuse, after all, in one groups view.
GhotiFish 13y ago
I have to say, I am scared. Very scared actually. I am scared of the grumblings around North Korea, the overwhelming and consistent negative media. This has sprung up recently (country scale timeline), over the past 1.5 ish years i'd say off hand, maybe? I really am terrified that this is the western nation creating a causus belli. A reason for war. I'm really scared that in the coming years, the graph of human population is about to take an unexpected dip. Another nightmare in human history. Someone tell me that's not going to happen :(
- ctdonath 13y ago
  This has been the norm re:NK for a long time. Lots of bluster, bullying & bravado amounting to nothing. Should there be war, Seoul would take some damage and NK would fold in about an hour.
- dpapathanasiou 13y ago
  It's unlikely, despite all the rhetoric: http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/seoulsvulnerability.html http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/seoulsvulnerability.html (while that article is 10 years old, all the same factors remain in play).
- alinajaf 13y ago
  Very well, you get your wish: A war with North Korea is bad times for pretty much everyone involved. Seoul bombed into the dust, thousands of refugees crossing the Chinese border and a potential for a proxy war between the U.S. and (China/Russia/Iran). Nobody wants this, especially not the North Korean regime. For all their bluster, they are still begging for food from pretty much anyone who will listen to them. According to experts on the regime, recent threats directed at Seoul and Washington were moves to shore up support from the military faction that was waning after Kim Jong-un came to power and fired a bunch of senior military officials. Instead of war, you get to watch a country deteriorate into the seventh circle. Humans bred for slavery in concentration camps, people below a certain height relocated to remote islands and left to die and mothers executed in front of their children for being 'enemies of the state'. Does that make you any less scared?

54 points by rickyconnolly 13y ago

As long as they don't nuke anyone, I believe North Koreans have every right to live as they want, no matter how strange/hilarious/unmeaning/suppressed their lifestyle may seem to us. EDIT: Explanation-https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694012

thedrbrian 13y ago
Apart from the elite do any North Koreans actually want to live the way they do?
- kpierre 13y ago
  i don't think any of the elites want to live the way they do, too. but they're stuck in the loop like everyone else.
  - rikacomet 13y ago
    and you both are saying that from experience? You know the elites, and the poor, more than what we have seen through the media? No, unless you are North Korean citizens for years, it is hard to grasp the truth. Of course, we all made this judgement, by comparing our life, and putting ourself in what NK's seem like living in right now, and adjudged that we would hate such a life, so the actual North Koreans must be hating their life as well. But truth be told, Many of the people there haven't even seen foreigners in their whole life, they are like a modern tribe, living in seclusion, we have to let their curiosity take its course, instead of pointing fingers at them saying, "look how boring is there football" "look at that, they don't have any fast food chains " etc etc.
    - cturner 13y ago
      Your first comment wasn't so good. But here you pose a great thought experiment. To run with your point for a moment - it is possible to consider the idea of a caste system. Most hacker news readers would be disgusted at it, but you could imagine it being run humanely, and the people there would be content to live as they are. Here's my rule zero of political freedom: do you live in fear of a knock on the door in the middle of the night? So long as someone lives-and-lets-live, they should never need to live in fear of an authority with a power to arbitrarily do nasty things to them. To me - that's valid for North Korea, The Lives of Others, middle eastern dictatorships, black helicopters, people who live in gangland Baltimore, domestic violence, children, pets, farm animals and the cold war.
      - rikacomet 13y ago
        Yes, you have a very good point regarding caste system. About first post being, not that good, well I got that feeling (haha) No shit! well, there is a need for scrutiny, as to why there haven't been a popular revolt, against the government, if people are that oppressed, as we are being lead to believe.
        cturner 13y ago
        Regarding the caste thing, had some more thoughts. Django Unchained plays with this. At first, you don't know where Stephen fits in. Is he a slave who "knows his place"? But he's so disrespectful! Gradually you learn that he has carved out a special role for himself at the expense of others. There's lots of room for talking about knocks on the door, and who fears who in Pulp Fiction too. Thinking about North Korea is interesting because the media coverage is so slim. What can I trust? Maybe I'm just living in a personalised version of the Truman Show. But the closest we have to a knock on the door is fear of economic strife, and very rare but overhyped incidents of domestic terrorism. > why there haven't been a popular revolt, against > the government, if people are that oppressed Revolution is a rare thing. I assume North Koreans have to deal with twisted language as well, and they're not allowed to talk to one another to work out their ideas. Marxism is filled with weasel words like "permanent revolution". Imagine how your brain would work if you had been born and bred on a diet of astrology, and taught that even discussing interpretations of what the people with guns say will have immediate, dire consequences. Most of history is dictatorship and compliance. What we have at the moment feels normal because it's what we know. But really it's a special exception to everything that has come before, and the reality for most of the people who are alive even today. I'm glad you challenged the post, I didn't have a bunch of these ideas an hour ago.
- Sprint 13y ago
  I do not know, do you?
nodata 13y ago
I believe North Koreans have every _right_ to live as they want Do you realise that this article is highlighting the point that they _don't_ have this right?
- rikacomet 13y ago
  and who exactly adjudged that, that they don't have this right? You? Me? Media? After having seen, what is the policy with foreign journalist? Do you say that any media report is 100% free of bias?
  - cs648 13y ago
    I think nodata is saying that the North Korean government has taken that right away from them.
    - rikacomet 13y ago
      And I think, I said it clearly, that what is the proof of, that right being taken away is something NK's want to fight for? even if what nodata said is true, that it is indeed being taken away. The reporting of our own media? which are not being allowed into NK, or if they are, are they being allowed the time, freedom to scrutinize? And if someone would think, that because they are disallowing media, they have something to hide, while indeed they have! but would you allow your neighbor to come inside your house, and get the truth about any fight you had within your family?
      - alinajaf 13y ago
        If only 10% of one of the accounts of the concentration camp escapees is true, then NK is in the same cluster as Syria and Congo in terms of treatment of its people. Its reasonable to assume that the right to not have your malnourished six year old daughter beaten to death for stealing a few corn kernels is one that homo sapiens everywhere find worth fighting for.
      - delackner 13y ago
da_n 13y ago
I agree in principle but the fact is most North Koreans do not have the right to live as they want.
bluedevil2k 13y ago
So you really think if they just opened up the border to South Korea and let people go as they please, NO ONE would leave the glorious nation of North Korea because it's how they want to live?
- rikacomet 13y ago
  and you believe that every last North Korean would go to South Korea, supposedly if that is true, you base this belief on?
  - bluedevil2k 13y ago
    An adult's understanding of how people behave, and a parent's desire to give their children a better life...not a 21 year old's ignorant view of the world.
    - rikacomet 13y ago
      And of all things, you had to go to my profile, and adjudge me ignorant, based on my age. Well, I don't mind that. Some people are built that way to find illogical reasons to deny someone's opinion. People here, of all the people, know better that wisdom is not based on age. It is rare at young age, but not impossible.
      - bluedevil2k 13y ago
        You're confusing "intelligence" and "wisdom". Wisdom is, without a doubt, based on age. It's something that can only be obtained through years and years of experience dealing with people, places, and situations in the world. While you may have more intelligence than an 80 year old Korean War vet, I don't think anyone would believe you have more wisdom.
        GhotiFish 13y ago
        A note on wisdom: A 21 year old posts advocating that we are almost certainly acting reactionary to a different culture. Now if a 35 year old were to come along and outright dismiss him because he's too young, oblivious to how bad that would look to a herd of hackers, then that would challenge your assertion that wisdom is earned from experience. My moneys on the 21 year old but hey, I'm 25. You know us young fools, right?
DLay 13y ago
I'm sorry, did I miss the sarcasm in this post? Please peruse these hand drawn pictures done by a North Korean defector depicting what life is like at one of their concentration camp--at your leisure, of course: http://imgur.com/a/648Mv http://imgur.com/a/648Mv http://www.northkoreanrefugees.com/2007-09-atbirth.htm http://www.northkoreanrefugees.com/2007-09-atbirth.htm To add to that, North Koreans have this policy called "third generation punishment". If a person does something that's frowned upon, like complaining about food rations, he/she gets executed with the knowledge that three generations of his/her family will be tortured to death at the camps. Many times the family gets sent without knowing the original family members' crime, just that they are now prisoners. If someone is born there it is a lifetime of slavery. --------------- "I believe North Koreans have every right to live as they want, no matter how strange/hilarious/unmeaning/suppressed their lifestyle may seem to us." Do you wish to retract that statement now?
- rikacomet 13y ago
  India has a policy called AFSPA, MCOCA, and POTA, that basically allow armed forces, not civil forces, to arrest, shoot, or kill any person without any trial, proof. Prevalent in at least two states: J&K and Nagaland. Turnout in last elections was near the national average. Rest is upto you to adjudge.
  - alinajaf 13y ago
    I'm not quite sure how that answers DLays points. Care to elaborate? He/she was pointing out that people the children, and childrens children of people who are deemed enemies of the state are not free to live how they want.
RobinL 13y ago
You're assuming they live as they want to. Read this and think again: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nothing-Envy-Lives-North-Korea/dp/184708141X http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nothing-Envy-Lives-North-Korea/dp/18...
ctdonath 13y ago
The whole point is that they DON'T get to live anywhere close to how they want. The slightest dissent or disobedience is met with vicious punishment or death. They can't leave, even if they want to. Ongoing starvation is normal. They act odd at the football game because they never go to football games and have no idea how to act; most there likely were told "attend or die". If they "like" this it's because they at not allowed to know any options. You know that recent news story of three women rescued from 10 years brutal captivity? North Korea is that on a national scale.
fredoliveira 13y ago
Being a contrarian will make you look interesting in some cases, ignorant in so many others. You should be a little more informed about what's happening in North Korea and about how exactly their people have "every right to live as they want".
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
return0 13y ago
Dictatorships are not unknown to the west. We know though, that it is more productive and fulfilling to live in a free democratic society. True, people in dictatorships can claim even a high level of satisfaction and happiness, but it's mostly a case of ignorance being a bliss. You are dismissing the power of oppression in altering minds. We have that in the west too, the media, yet we believe its marginally better due to pluralism
robomartin 13y ago
A number of issues with your position. First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do. The North Korean people will not nuke anyone, ever. If that happens it will be done by their government. Be sure to understand that distinction as you go forward in life. The hundred million people killed during the world wars died because of decisions and actions taken by governments, not farmers in Germany, teachers in Japan, taxi drivers in New York or restaurant owners in London. War is one of the most regrettable failures of our collective approaches to government. As for the rest, read the Allegory of the Cave. Someone who only knows shadows does not know reality. You seem to imply this is perfectly acceptable. I think most of the negative reaction you are seeing is because, of course, this idea is deeply flawed and, at some level, really cruel. I'll take this to an uncomfortable extreme. Suppose the town next to yours has a culture of child abuse. That's just what they do. Every home has a dungeon and kids are kept in there until they become adults. No education is provided at all. You and I look at this from the outside. You say it is OK no matter how horrible this might look to us. I say it is not. I know you've had criticism for being young. I won't go there other than to say that there are a lot of indoctrinated young idealists in the HN audience. In some cultures they come out of school indoctrinated and fail to understand the world and their environment until perhaps decades later. I'd venture to say people don't really get it until somewhere around 30 to 40 years of age. Start by reading some of the Greek philosophers. I am not suggesting you take their writings as facts as much as I would propose they might teach how to reason and view things from many angles. I don't intend this to imply you are ignorant. Not even close. It's something from my own education I continue to find value in over the years and I thought I'd share that with you.
- GhotiFish 13y ago
  Out of curiosity. What was he indoctrinated into thinking? That objective morality doesn't exist? Speaking of indoctrination, there is a contingent of people who actively view this as child abuse. Your metaphor is a reality, one town (I'm sure more than one, actually) really does actively abuse their children in the view of another. Do you still say it's not ok? Even when the one abusing that child is your next door neighbor, even when you don't hold the morality of this other demographic? We live in an antagonistic society, where we compete to produce, The weakest of us fall to the wayside, are we moral? If that town abusing their children followed your law, they would of wiped out the atheists, for abusing their children. Not teaching your children about god is child abuse, after all, in one groups view.

GhotiFish 13y ago

I have to say, I am scared. Very scared actually. I am scared of the grumblings around North Korea, the overwhelming and consistent negative media. This has sprung up recently (country scale timeline), over the past 1.5 ish years i'd say off hand, maybe? I really am terrified that this is the western nation creating a causus belli. A reason for war. I'm really scared that in the coming years, the graph of human population is about to take an unexpected dip. Another nightmare in human history. Someone tell me that's not going to happen :(

ctdonath 13y ago
This has been the norm re:NK for a long time. Lots of bluster, bullying & bravado amounting to nothing. Should there be war, Seoul would take some damage and NK would fold in about an hour.
dpapathanasiou 13y ago
It's unlikely, despite all the rhetoric: http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/seoulsvulnerability.html http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/seoulsvulnerability.html (while that article is 10 years old, all the same factors remain in play).
alinajaf 13y ago
Very well, you get your wish: A war with North Korea is bad times for pretty much everyone involved. Seoul bombed into the dust, thousands of refugees crossing the Chinese border and a potential for a proxy war between the U.S. and (China/Russia/Iran). Nobody wants this, especially not the North Korean regime. For all their bluster, they are still begging for food from pretty much anyone who will listen to them. According to experts on the regime, recent threats directed at Seoul and Washington were moves to shore up support from the military faction that was waning after Kim Jong-un came to power and fired a bunch of senior military officials. Instead of war, you get to watch a country deteriorate into the seventh circle. Humans bred for slavery in concentration camps, people below a certain height relocated to remote islands and left to die and mothers executed in front of their children for being 'enemies of the state'. Does that make you any less scared?