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I also don't think Adria overreacted. It was a microaggression. Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech. Were

by esbwhat 13y ago

I also don't think Adria overreacted. It was a microaggression. Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech. Were the jokes explicitly sexist? No, but in an industry that has more than just a bad track record, stuff like that is not okay. Context matters.

MartinCron 13y ago
I totally agree that it was a microaggression, and that microaggression is a real thing that isn't to be tolerated. I know that it's all part of a pervasively unwelcoming and alienating culture that I, as a straight white male, am also disturbed by. I get all of that. I understand all of that and still think her reaction was out-of-scale.
- esbwhat 13y ago
  Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. I don't see the problem?
  - MartinCron 13y ago
    The problem was the extremely public nature of the channel. It wasn't speaking softly to the usher that someone was being inappropriate and unprofessional, it was shouting into a megaphone that someone was being inappropriate and unprofessional. It's the "megaphone" part that I think is out-of-scale. If we're going to be a civilized community, then gentle, discreet correction should be the societal norm.
    - esbwhat 13y ago
      I don't think she had any obligation to raise the issue quietly. Making things public works. Unless people start calling out this kind of behaviour in a public manner, there will be no pressure for anyone to change anything. I think this is just a variant of a tone argument basically.
      - MartinCron 13y ago
        That's where I (respectfully) disagree. There are many ways to apply pressure for social change that don't involve identifying and shaming individual bad actors. Even discussing the event in public is fine, (although I'm not convinced that the level of discourse on Twitter is appropriate for something as nuanced as Microaggression), but including the picture feels like an out-of-scale response to what the guys did.
        mkr-hn 13y ago
        > Microaggression I've been trying to remember this word all week
        esbwhat 13y ago
        That's the thing though - People always think that calling out microaggressions is overreaction, because they look at an individual incident, and not the whole. At the same time it needs to be clearly communicated that this kind of behaviour is absolutely unacceptable.
        dragonwriter 13y ago
        > People always think that calling out microaggressions is overreaction, because they look at an individual incident, and not the whole How is publishing photographs of the individual offenders in a specific indicdent and a description of that specific incident not both looking at, and encouraging others to look at, an individual incident, instead of some broader problem that incident might be part of?
        esbwhat 13y ago
        That's not the point. The point is we shouldn't brush off these individual incidents as insignificant because they are part of a whole. The problem is not going to get solved if you don't show that you do not tolerate this sort of behaviour, on an individual scale.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. As I understand it, the particular use of a public channel (particularly, the use of a photograph in it) was itself a direct violation of the Code of Conduct of the conference, and an unnecessary escalation. The only arguably excuse for such public shaming, independently of whether or not it was a violation of the Code of Conduct, would be if the act were more something significantly more serious on its own than she described (though a public complaint about the organizers would be in line if the act, as described, was privately reported and the organizers failed to deal with it in such a way that that failure was itself a hostile.)
    - esbwhat 13y ago
      The part of the code of conduct you are referring to was added AFTER this whole thing happened. So you don't think it was a serious thing. I disagree. It's brushing off these things as "not serious" that is part of the problem.
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        > The part of the code of conduct you are referring to was added AFTER this whole thing happened. That's not what several of the accounts I've seen has said, but as I noted in my post I don't consider that particularly important in the final analysis one way or the other. > So you don't think it was a serious thing. I didn't say that; quite the opposite, I said that there was a legitimate grounds to expect that conference organizers would treat an appropriate, private report seriously and that it would be legitimately to publicly complain if they failed to do so. Theft of even a small value is serious. Murder is serious. Most people who agree with both these propositions would still readily agree that the appropriate response to the former and that to the latter are not the same.
rabino 13y ago
Really? You can't make a dongle joke in public because of... what? Are women so fragile and weak that they are offended by a mildly sexual joke? Who's the sexist again?
- esbwhat 13y ago
  >Who's the sexist again? most of the time, the person asking that sort of question Nice misrepresentation of what I said, by the way. It's not about the joke, it's about what's behind it. Women are frequently objectified in jokes, and the Technology industry hasn't exactly been the most welcoming to women. When you make a sexual joke in front of a woman in this context, she might feel inclined to think about what's behind that joke. And you will feel that no matter the intention, the tech industry is not one that has proven itself to be mature enough to be given the benefit of the doubt.
  - rabino 13y ago
    Because sexual jokes are exclusive for men? For some reason a dingle joke is offensive to women, but it's ok between dudes? Sorry, I _really_ don't understand the argument. I'm no trying to be funny or anything. I live in a place where we don't have a big problem with sexism, so I'm trying to understand what's going on.
    - esbwhat 13y ago
      Again, context matters. When a man makes a sexual joke and a woman makes a sexual joke, it's not the same thing because there are different implications to it. Women are often sexualized and/or objectified, specifically by men. When a man makes a sexual joke, even if he is not directly sexualizing a woman, that can make some women uncomfortable, because of the societal context behind it. Tech conferences already have kind of a bad reputation towards building an inviting atmosphere for women. Now imagine you are in a place where you might feel a little bit vulnerable, and you hear something like that. It's easy to take it the wrong way, regardless of the intent behind the joke. All this is completely ignoring that in a professional settings, these kinds of jokes are inappropriate anyway.
smokeyj 13y ago
> Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment Maybe they make Adria uncomfortable. Maybe they make you uncomfortable. They don't make all women uncomfortable, and you should stop pretending you speak on behalf of women everywhere. Arguing that some humor should be saved for when women aren't around seems like the antithesis of equality. If anything it explains why a "boy club" would ever exist. To speak freely without fear of persecution.
- esbwhat 13y ago
  Bullshit. It's not about whether ALL women are uncomfortable. Of course not all women are uncomfortable. So should we only frown upon behaviours that make every single member of a minority uncomfortable? Some is enough.
  - smokeyj 13y ago
    By not wearing a burqa you make muslims uncomfortable. Better cover up!
    - esbwhat 13y ago
      Yes, it is such a fucking inconvenience not making juvenile and unprofessional jokes at a conference where you are supposed to represent your employer.
      - smokeyj 13y ago
        Is it so hard to cover your face?
IvyMike 13y ago
The term microagression is weird. If it was "micro", a proportional response would have also have been micro. Public shaming seems out of proportion. And "aggression" implies directed hostility or malicious intent, neither of which seems to be the case here. > Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech. I have to simply disagree here. There are other things that may foster such an environment, but focusing on dumb, non-hostile jokes like this are a distraction.
- esbwhat 13y ago
  The idea of a microaggression is that it's many small things you are exposed to consistently, and a lot. The kind of things people will say "lighten up, it's just a joke" to, because they see it as an individual incident. (which incidentally has been happening in this thread, a lot)
omonra 13y ago
While you don't think she overreacted, I don't think everybody else overreacted. I guess everybody got what they deserved. Happy now?
- esbwhat 13y ago
  I don't think the person who got fired should have been fired. I don't think she should have been fired. I don't think such an internet shitstorm would have been necessary, but here we are. All that I am saying is that I don't think she overreacted in reporting this in a public manner.
  - omonra 13y ago
    You know, if she wasn't such a publicity-seeking hypocritical douchebag, I'd take your point. However, her pattern of behavior clearly shows that to be the case (she was tweeting sexual innuendos while at the conference). So I think her MO was not "I feel vulnerable because some guys are making me uncomfortable, this is wrong, I'll do something about it". It was rather "I have a bully pulpit from which I can demonize some schmoes and raise my status at the same time, so I'll do it". Therefore the discussion of her over or under-reacting is moot - this was a publicity stunt that ended up backfiring on her. While I regret people being fired, I can't help but feel that her ultimate downfall is deserved.
    - esbwhat 13y ago
      >she was tweeting sexual innuendos while at the conference besides the point. It's not about the sexual innuendo, it's about the context of the sexual innuendo. Clearly she is not a prude and against sexual jokes in general. But in that specific environment, they were inappropriate. Twitter is a different environment.

by esbwhat 13y ago

MartinCron 13y ago

I totally agree that it was a microaggression, and that microaggression is a real thing that isn't to be tolerated. I know that it's all part of a pervasively unwelcoming and alienating culture that I, as a straight white male, am also disturbed by. I get all of that. I understand all of that and still think her reaction was out-of-scale.

esbwhat 13y ago
Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. I don't see the problem?
- MartinCron 13y ago
  The problem was the extremely public nature of the channel. It wasn't speaking softly to the usher that someone was being inappropriate and unprofessional, it was shouting into a megaphone that someone was being inappropriate and unprofessional. It's the "megaphone" part that I think is out-of-scale. If we're going to be a civilized community, then gentle, discreet correction should be the societal norm.
  - esbwhat 13y ago
    I don't think she had any obligation to raise the issue quietly. Making things public works. Unless people start calling out this kind of behaviour in a public manner, there will be no pressure for anyone to change anything. I think this is just a variant of a tone argument basically.
    - MartinCron 13y ago
      That's where I (respectfully) disagree. There are many ways to apply pressure for social change that don't involve identifying and shaming individual bad actors. Even discussing the event in public is fine, (although I'm not convinced that the level of discourse on Twitter is appropriate for something as nuanced as Microaggression), but including the picture feels like an out-of-scale response to what the guys did.
      - mkr-hn 13y ago
        > Microaggression I've been trying to remember this word all week
      - esbwhat 13y ago
        That's the thing though - People always think that calling out microaggressions is overreaction, because they look at an individual incident, and not the whole. At the same time it needs to be clearly communicated that this kind of behaviour is absolutely unacceptable.
        dragonwriter 13y ago
        > People always think that calling out microaggressions is overreaction, because they look at an individual incident, and not the whole How is publishing photographs of the individual offenders in a specific indicdent and a description of that specific incident not both looking at, and encouraging others to look at, an individual incident, instead of some broader problem that incident might be part of?
        esbwhat 13y ago
        That's not the point. The point is we shouldn't brush off these individual incidents as insignificant because they are part of a whole. The problem is not going to get solved if you don't show that you do not tolerate this sort of behaviour, on an individual scale.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Why? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. As I understand it, the particular use of a public channel (particularly, the use of a photograph in it) was itself a direct violation of the Code of Conduct of the conference, and an unnecessary escalation. The only arguably excuse for such public shaming, independently of whether or not it was a violation of the Code of Conduct, would be if the act were more something significantly more serious on its own than she described (though a public complaint about the organizers would be in line if the act, as described, was privately reported and the organizers failed to deal with it in such a way that that failure was itself a hostile.)
  - esbwhat 13y ago
    The part of the code of conduct you are referring to was added AFTER this whole thing happened. So you don't think it was a serious thing. I disagree. It's brushing off these things as "not serious" that is part of the problem.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > The part of the code of conduct you are referring to was added AFTER this whole thing happened. That's not what several of the accounts I've seen has said, but as I noted in my post I don't consider that particularly important in the final analysis one way or the other. > So you don't think it was a serious thing. I didn't say that; quite the opposite, I said that there was a legitimate grounds to expect that conference organizers would treat an appropriate, private report seriously and that it would be legitimately to publicly complain if they failed to do so. Theft of even a small value is serious. Murder is serious. Most people who agree with both these propositions would still readily agree that the appropriate response to the former and that to the latter are not the same.

rabino 13y ago

Really? You can't make a dongle joke in public because of... what? Are women so fragile and weak that they are offended by a mildly sexual joke? Who's the sexist again?

esbwhat 13y ago
>Who's the sexist again? most of the time, the person asking that sort of question Nice misrepresentation of what I said, by the way. It's not about the joke, it's about what's behind it. Women are frequently objectified in jokes, and the Technology industry hasn't exactly been the most welcoming to women. When you make a sexual joke in front of a woman in this context, she might feel inclined to think about what's behind that joke. And you will feel that no matter the intention, the tech industry is not one that has proven itself to be mature enough to be given the benefit of the doubt.
- rabino 13y ago
  Because sexual jokes are exclusive for men? For some reason a dingle joke is offensive to women, but it's ok between dudes? Sorry, I _really_ don't understand the argument. I'm no trying to be funny or anything. I live in a place where we don't have a big problem with sexism, so I'm trying to understand what's going on.
  - esbwhat 13y ago
    Again, context matters. When a man makes a sexual joke and a woman makes a sexual joke, it's not the same thing because there are different implications to it. Women are often sexualized and/or objectified, specifically by men. When a man makes a sexual joke, even if he is not directly sexualizing a woman, that can make some women uncomfortable, because of the societal context behind it. Tech conferences already have kind of a bad reputation towards building an inviting atmosphere for women. Now imagine you are in a place where you might feel a little bit vulnerable, and you hear something like that. It's easy to take it the wrong way, regardless of the intent behind the joke. All this is completely ignoring that in a professional settings, these kinds of jokes are inappropriate anyway.

smokeyj 13y ago

> Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment Maybe they make Adria uncomfortable. Maybe they make you uncomfortable. They don't make all women uncomfortable, and you should stop pretending you speak on behalf of women everywhere. Arguing that some humor should be saved for when women aren't around seems like the antithesis of equality. If anything it explains why a "boy club" would ever exist. To speak freely without fear of persecution.

esbwhat 13y ago
Bullshit. It's not about whether ALL women are uncomfortable. Of course not all women are uncomfortable. So should we only frown upon behaviours that make every single member of a minority uncomfortable? Some is enough.
- smokeyj 13y ago
  By not wearing a burqa you make muslims uncomfortable. Better cover up!
  - esbwhat 13y ago
    Yes, it is such a fucking inconvenience not making juvenile and unprofessional jokes at a conference where you are supposed to represent your employer.
    - smokeyj 13y ago
      Is it so hard to cover your face?

IvyMike 13y ago

The term microagression is weird. If it was "micro", a proportional response would have also have been micro. Public shaming seems out of proportion. And "aggression" implies directed hostility or malicious intent, neither of which seems to be the case here. > Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech. I have to simply disagree here. There are other things that may foster such an environment, but focusing on dumb, non-hostile jokes like this are a distraction.

esbwhat 13y ago
The idea of a microaggression is that it's many small things you are exposed to consistently, and a lot. The kind of things people will say "lighten up, it's just a joke" to, because they see it as an individual incident. (which incidentally has been happening in this thread, a lot)

omonra 13y ago

While you don't think she overreacted, I don't think everybody else overreacted. I guess everybody got what they deserved. Happy now?

esbwhat 13y ago
I don't think the person who got fired should have been fired. I don't think she should have been fired. I don't think such an internet shitstorm would have been necessary, but here we are. All that I am saying is that I don't think she overreacted in reporting this in a public manner.
- omonra 13y ago
  You know, if she wasn't such a publicity-seeking hypocritical douchebag, I'd take your point. However, her pattern of behavior clearly shows that to be the case (she was tweeting sexual innuendos while at the conference). So I think her MO was not "I feel vulnerable because some guys are making me uncomfortable, this is wrong, I'll do something about it". It was rather "I have a bully pulpit from which I can demonize some schmoes and raise my status at the same time, so I'll do it". Therefore the discussion of her over or under-reacting is moot - this was a publicity stunt that ended up backfiring on her. While I regret people being fired, I can't help but feel that her ultimate downfall is deserved.
  - esbwhat 13y ago
    >she was tweeting sexual innuendos while at the conference besides the point. It's not about the sexual innuendo, it's about the context of the sexual innuendo. Clearly she is not a prude and against sexual jokes in general. But in that specific environment, they were inappropriate. Twitter is a different environment.