9 ms·

Why There Are No Game Console App Stores

34 points by 10char 14y ago

soundoflight 14y ago
Why does Xbox Live Indies (previously called Community Games) not count? Microsoft has had that in for a few years on the 360. There are quite a few really good non-minecraft clones on that service. As for Sony, what about the fact that they have a similiar thing on PS Vita with the Playstation Mobile Developer program.
- darkxanthos 14y ago
  Down voted since you apparently didn't read the article. The author specifically addresses Xbox Live Indies. Before I read the article I agreed but turns out there's a pretty solid point in there. It's funny how the consoles are racing towards this whole notion of the physical media doesn't matter when that seems to be precisely where consumers attribute the value.
  - mpclark 14y ago
    Excellent point about consumers attributing value to things they can hold in their hands. The same is true of written content; in my experience information on paper is a lot easier to sell than the same information hosted on a website. The attraction of moving to digital media is clear (instant delivery, no overheads, easier to control copying etc) but consumers can be reluctant to pay for anything they can't touch.
  - brudgers 14y ago
    The article true Scotsmanned the Xbox approach and the above comment rightly describes this with the phrase "not count". The article's arguments are severely undermined by the Xbox ecosystem and its dismissal by the author is intellectually lazy and his dismissive claim is unsupported within the piece.
    - ido 14y ago
      As someone making his full time income from game development for the past several years, the common wisdom among developers is that there's a handful of commercially successful games on XBLIG (which is not the same as the much more successful XBLA) & that you can pretty much discount that as a profitable option if you intend on making a commercial indie game. It is simply a lot harder to make money on XBLIG than on Steam/app store/play market.
      - homosaur 14y ago
        As someone who has never touched XBLIG as a dev or XNA, why do most of the games on XBLIG look so horrible? Is it just a bad SDK from Microsoft or can they just not attract top end development talent?
        ido 14y ago
        Low likelihood of profitability make putting a considerable budget behind an XBLIG game an irrational risk. Technically there is no reason you won't be able to make good looking games with xna (at least in 2d, not any worse than what you can get running on flash or iphone). The "top end" developers mostly go straight to XBLA.
- 10char 14y ago
  I briefly touched on this in the post, and did kind of hand-wave it away, but this Reddit comment sums up my research: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18irx0/the_minecraft_test_how_to_tell_if_your_console_is/c8fpb5k http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18irx0/the_minecraft_... Now, I'm really curious about the next-gen Xbox, which will almost undoubtedly be built on a version of Windows 8. Hopefully this means the same tools for developing Xbox, Windows Phone, Surface, and desktop apps (HTML-based, if I recall)
ditojim 14y ago
all the game consoles have app stores. seriously.
- gmrple 14y ago
  App stores, yes, but how difficult/expensive is it to get your code onto the console?
  - mikerob 14y ago
    Xbox 360 was a great step in the right direction with easy access to XNA and the ability to publish to xbox live. A number of friends who I thought would never get into game design managed to push games back in 07/08.
  - Keyframe 14y ago
    edit: PS3 devkit is 1,700 Euros. There's also this: https://psm.playstation.net/portal/en/index.html#register https://psm.playstation.net/portal/en/index.html#register http://www.playstation.com/pss/index_e.html http://www.playstation.com/pss/index_e.html
  - ditojim 14y ago
    the title of the article claims there are no game console app stores. you are talking about a barrier to entry. two different things entirely.
    - chaostheory 14y ago
      I think everyone can figure out that he was talking about how hard it is for a small shop or lone developer to get their app on the big three console stores.
      - r0s 14y ago
        And yet, he has done nothing to investigate that idea.
niggler 14y ago
"But when you've got an App Stores, you've got a race to the bottom." Are game developers on i* competing on price in the same way? Or is the pricing model different? I would claim that the console games' revenues are front-loaded while i* games are back-loaded (many games include DLC for free, whereas apple games end up monetizing through lots of DLC)
- sjmulder 14y ago
  DLC (very slow progression otherwise), rewards for sharing, and low budget production. I prefer the Steam model myself. It fully embraces digital, and there are very steep discounts regularly, but in general the prices remain healthy and once you buy a game it’s yours without BS.
kayoone 14y ago
I think it's more of a control and quality issue. Steam also has lots of AAA titles and no problem with race to the bottom pricing. Maybe it indeed is a hardware profit issue, but then valve would have similar problems. I honestly don't understand why they don't go full force on app stores, it would change the game and imo is their only chance to survive vs Valve and Apple.
mikerob 14y ago
Over time Nintendo will probably sell all their classics on other platforms app stores, eventually just that like how sega have transformed into content only.
- niggler 14y ago
  That's not clear. AFAICT Nintendo isn't losing money on each unit sold
  - chaostheory 14y ago
    No. Starting with the 3DS, Nintendo has finally started selling hardware at a loss. http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/nintendo-will-sell-wii-u-at-a-loss-rely-on-games-for-profit-1107450 http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/nintendo-will-... http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/26/nintendo-confirms-that-its-selling-3ds-at-a-loss-expects-that/ http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/26/nintendo-confirms-that-it... However just like everyone else, this will eventually change once the cost of components starts going down.
    - CrazedGeek 14y ago
      It was making a profit again three months later: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-25-nintendo-3ds-profitability-improving-despite-overall-losses http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-25-nintendo-3ds-pr...
- r0s 14y ago
  You can buy classics right now on the virtual console service, for wii or DSi/3DS.
- king_jester 14y ago
  Would that really be profitable for them? The state of nintendo emulation on mobile devices is really good and the existing emulator code bases tend to get ported to new platforms, legally or not. It seems like they would be better off just making original content for mobile platforms rather than trying to cash in on older titles.
trimbo 14y ago
As an ex-EA employee, I think I know the real reasons. They're Target, Walmart and Carrefour. The packaged game industry is still beholden to retailers.
- bentcorner 14y ago
  As an Xbox customer I always wonder why MSFT doesn't sim-ship their games on their Games on Demand service (and, why their GoD prices are never competitive). I guess it's the retailers.
  - citricsquid 14y ago
    There was a discussion about this yesterday in r/games, the general conclusion was indeed the retailers: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/191dec/all_ps4_games_will_be_available_as_digital/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/191dec/all_ps4_games_...
  - teamonkey 14y ago
    Sony do day1 downloadable releases for most major titles. Probably the biggest reason I've played more games on my PS3 than on my 360 in the last year.
  - Tuna-Fish 14y ago
    Shelf space on retailers is still the most important way to advertise. After Steam hit brick & mortar PC sales hard, the retailers are now ready to immediately and harshly punish any platform that tries to do the same.
    - chaostheory 14y ago
      What? Before Steam, brick and mortar PC sales were already down. Even stores like Gamestop and Bestbuy lowered their inventory. At the end of the day people just wanted to pop in a disc and have the game work without worrying about patches, drivers, and expensive hardware config. I feel that this was one of the main reasons for the downfall of PC Gaming back then, besides consoles catching up in terms of graphical quality. While Steam doesn't solve everything, it makes the software portion of config way easier; not to mention the games are way cheaper than what normal retail stores would charge.
estel 14y ago
Doesn't Playstation Mobile count? It's an SDK and accompanying store for publishing to the Vita and Playstation branded Android devices. I can absolutely see them extending this to the PS4.
- chaostheory 14y ago
  How cheap is it to start ie how much is the dev subscription and how much do you have to pay for hardware?
  - estel 14y ago
    $99/year to publish on the Store (at the moment, they don't allow Free applications). SDK can be downloaded without paying. Can develop on any Vita or certified Android device. (These: http://www.playstation.com/psm/certified.html http://www.playstation.com/psm/certified.html)
mtgx 14y ago
These "next-gen" consoles are boring. And they seem to not only want to keep the same old high prices, but also eliminate options like playing used games (next xbox). For true next-gen gaming I'll be waiting for Steambox for its affordable games and I assume it will have great support for Oculus Rift, too, from day one.
teamonkey 14y ago
The game price range on PS4 will be $0.99 to $60. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/122311-Sony-CEO-Gives-PS4-Games-0-99-to-60-Price-Range http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/122311-Sony-CEO-Gi...
asr2bd 14y ago
I really hope that dev kits for the next gen consoles don't continue to be so expensive. If I own the console, I should be able to develop on it. I don't think Sony and Microsoft are unaware that small indie developed games have been flooding the App Store. That being said, Apple has sold 410 million iOS devices and has paid developers $5.5B (2012 numbers). Apple makes an absurd amount of money from hardware, while Microsoft and Sony sell their consoles at losses and need to make money back from software.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
This is an interesting question. Another is when will TV's get an Android game API "built in" like they have the "Netflix" and "Hulu" apps built in now. A game framework, an online store of games, an in game purchase mechanism, and one casino game. Blam the new world arrives.
r0s 14y ago
Nintendo is now officially selling AAA titles through the online store for DSi/3DS.
- rquirk 14y ago
  I wonder how well they are selling? In Europe they cost 45€ a game, and are locked to that console (not to your account). I guess this is so as not to annoy their retail partners - cartridges are a much better deal, can usually be found cheaper online, and can be swapped amongst consoles. Having said that, I have bought a couple of the cheaper "A" games that cost in the 6-10€ range (V, Fallblox/Pushmo and another I've forgotten the name of). Mostly due to the lack of good 3DS games so far.
  - r0s 14y ago
    I really liked Nano Assault. Gunman Clive just released and it's very good, and only like $2.00.
10char 14y ago
If you're curious about the state of console development, there's an excellent Reddit comment/thread @payne92 just shared with me: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18irx0/the_minecraft_test_how_to_tell_if_your_console_is/c8fcm4v http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18irx0/the_minecraft_... The long and short of it is a) developing a non-Xbox Indie game is incredibly expensive and prohibitive b) (for now) state of Xbox Indie game network and framework is crippled c) Steam is a much better, although still imperfect, beast to deal with.
Hansi 14y ago
With the changed in PSN+ over the last two years and the inclusion of all the free games I'm sure in the next generation I'll just go for a PS4 and PSN+ yearly subscriptions and that will cover all my gaming needs.
carno 14y ago
Playstation Mobile http://www.playstation.com/psm/index_e.html http://www.playstation.com/psm/index_e.html No devkit, just download the SDK and run on your PC. It's free to try and costs $100 year to deploy to devices and actually self publish your game.

34 points by 10char 14y ago

Why does Xbox Live Indies (previously called Community Games) not count? Microsoft has had that in for a few years on the 360. There are quite a few really good non-minecraft clones on that service. As for Sony, what about the fact that they have a similiar thing on PS Vita with the Playstation Mobile Developer program.

darkxanthos 14y ago
Down voted since you apparently didn't read the article. The author specifically addresses Xbox Live Indies. Before I read the article I agreed but turns out there's a pretty solid point in there. It's funny how the consoles are racing towards this whole notion of the physical media doesn't matter when that seems to be precisely where consumers attribute the value.
- mpclark 14y ago
  Excellent point about consumers attributing value to things they can hold in their hands. The same is true of written content; in my experience information on paper is a lot easier to sell than the same information hosted on a website. The attraction of moving to digital media is clear (instant delivery, no overheads, easier to control copying etc) but consumers can be reluctant to pay for anything they can't touch.
- brudgers 14y ago
  The article true Scotsmanned the Xbox approach and the above comment rightly describes this with the phrase "not count". The article's arguments are severely undermined by the Xbox ecosystem and its dismissal by the author is intellectually lazy and his dismissive claim is unsupported within the piece.
  - ido 14y ago
    As someone making his full time income from game development for the past several years, the common wisdom among developers is that there's a handful of commercially successful games on XBLIG (which is not the same as the much more successful XBLA) & that you can pretty much discount that as a profitable option if you intend on making a commercial indie game. It is simply a lot harder to make money on XBLIG than on Steam/app store/play market.
    - homosaur 14y ago
      As someone who has never touched XBLIG as a dev or XNA, why do most of the games on XBLIG look so horrible? Is it just a bad SDK from Microsoft or can they just not attract top end development talent?
      - ido 14y ago
        Low likelihood of profitability make putting a considerable budget behind an XBLIG game an irrational risk. Technically there is no reason you won't be able to make good looking games with xna (at least in 2d, not any worse than what you can get running on flash or iphone). The "top end" developers mostly go straight to XBLA.
10char 14y ago
I briefly touched on this in the post, and did kind of hand-wave it away, but this Reddit comment sums up my research: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18irx0/the_minecraft_test_how_to_tell_if_your_console_is/c8fpb5k http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18irx0/the_minecraft_... Now, I'm really curious about the next-gen Xbox, which will almost undoubtedly be built on a version of Windows 8. Hopefully this means the same tools for developing Xbox, Windows Phone, Surface, and desktop apps (HTML-based, if I recall)

ditojim 14y ago

all the game consoles have app stores. seriously.

gmrple 14y ago
App stores, yes, but how difficult/expensive is it to get your code onto the console?
- mikerob 14y ago
  Xbox 360 was a great step in the right direction with easy access to XNA and the ability to publish to xbox live. A number of friends who I thought would never get into game design managed to push games back in 07/08.
- Keyframe 14y ago
  edit: PS3 devkit is 1,700 Euros. There's also this: https://psm.playstation.net/portal/en/index.html#register https://psm.playstation.net/portal/en/index.html#register http://www.playstation.com/pss/index_e.html http://www.playstation.com/pss/index_e.html
- ditojim 14y ago
  the title of the article claims there are no game console app stores. you are talking about a barrier to entry. two different things entirely.
  - chaostheory 14y ago
    I think everyone can figure out that he was talking about how hard it is for a small shop or lone developer to get their app on the big three console stores.
    - r0s 14y ago
      And yet, he has done nothing to investigate that idea.

niggler 14y ago

"But when you've got an App Stores, you've got a race to the bottom." Are game developers on i* competing on price in the same way? Or is the pricing model different? I would claim that the console games' revenues are front-loaded while i* games are back-loaded (many games include DLC for free, whereas apple games end up monetizing through lots of DLC)

sjmulder 14y ago
DLC (very slow progression otherwise), rewards for sharing, and low budget production. I prefer the Steam model myself. It fully embraces digital, and there are very steep discounts regularly, but in general the prices remain healthy and once you buy a game it’s yours without BS.

kayoone 14y ago

I think it's more of a control and quality issue. Steam also has lots of AAA titles and no problem with race to the bottom pricing. Maybe it indeed is a hardware profit issue, but then valve would have similar problems. I honestly don't understand why they don't go full force on app stores, it would change the game and imo is their only chance to survive vs Valve and Apple.

mikerob 14y ago

Over time Nintendo will probably sell all their classics on other platforms app stores, eventually just that like how sega have transformed into content only.

niggler 14y ago
That's not clear. AFAICT Nintendo isn't losing money on each unit sold
- chaostheory 14y ago
  No. Starting with the 3DS, Nintendo has finally started selling hardware at a loss. http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/nintendo-will-sell-wii-u-at-a-loss-rely-on-games-for-profit-1107450 http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/nintendo-will-... http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/26/nintendo-confirms-that-its-selling-3ds-at-a-loss-expects-that/ http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/26/nintendo-confirms-that-it... However just like everyone else, this will eventually change once the cost of components starts going down.
  - CrazedGeek 14y ago
    It was making a profit again three months later: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-25-nintendo-3ds-profitability-improving-despite-overall-losses http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-25-nintendo-3ds-pr...
r0s 14y ago
You can buy classics right now on the virtual console service, for wii or DSi/3DS.
king_jester 14y ago
Would that really be profitable for them? The state of nintendo emulation on mobile devices is really good and the existing emulator code bases tend to get ported to new platforms, legally or not. It seems like they would be better off just making original content for mobile platforms rather than trying to cash in on older titles.

trimbo 14y ago

As an ex-EA employee, I think I know the real reasons. They're Target, Walmart and Carrefour. The packaged game industry is still beholden to retailers.

bentcorner 14y ago
As an Xbox customer I always wonder why MSFT doesn't sim-ship their games on their Games on Demand service (and, why their GoD prices are never competitive). I guess it's the retailers.
- citricsquid 14y ago
  There was a discussion about this yesterday in r/games, the general conclusion was indeed the retailers: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/191dec/all_ps4_games_will_be_available_as_digital/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/191dec/all_ps4_games_...
- teamonkey 14y ago
  Sony do day1 downloadable releases for most major titles. Probably the biggest reason I've played more games on my PS3 than on my 360 in the last year.
- Tuna-Fish 14y ago
  Shelf space on retailers is still the most important way to advertise. After Steam hit brick & mortar PC sales hard, the retailers are now ready to immediately and harshly punish any platform that tries to do the same.
  - chaostheory 14y ago
    What? Before Steam, brick and mortar PC sales were already down. Even stores like Gamestop and Bestbuy lowered their inventory. At the end of the day people just wanted to pop in a disc and have the game work without worrying about patches, drivers, and expensive hardware config. I feel that this was one of the main reasons for the downfall of PC Gaming back then, besides consoles catching up in terms of graphical quality. While Steam doesn't solve everything, it makes the software portion of config way easier; not to mention the games are way cheaper than what normal retail stores would charge.

estel 14y ago

Doesn't Playstation Mobile count? It's an SDK and accompanying store for publishing to the Vita and Playstation branded Android devices. I can absolutely see them extending this to the PS4.

chaostheory 14y ago
How cheap is it to start ie how much is the dev subscription and how much do you have to pay for hardware?
- estel 14y ago
  $99/year to publish on the Store (at the moment, they don't allow Free applications). SDK can be downloaded without paying. Can develop on any Vita or certified Android device. (These: http://www.playstation.com/psm/certified.html http://www.playstation.com/psm/certified.html)

mtgx 14y ago

These "next-gen" consoles are boring. And they seem to not only want to keep the same old high prices, but also eliminate options like playing used games (next xbox). For true next-gen gaming I'll be waiting for Steambox for its affordable games and I assume it will have great support for Oculus Rift, too, from day one.

teamonkey 14y ago

The game price range on PS4 will be $0.99 to $60. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/122311-Sony-CEO-Gives-PS4-Games-0-99-to-60-Price-Range http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/122311-Sony-CEO-Gi...

asr2bd 14y ago

I really hope that dev kits for the next gen consoles don't continue to be so expensive. If I own the console, I should be able to develop on it. I don't think Sony and Microsoft are unaware that small indie developed games have been flooding the App Store. That being said, Apple has sold 410 million iOS devices and has paid developers $5.5B (2012 numbers). Apple makes an absurd amount of money from hardware, while Microsoft and Sony sell their consoles at losses and need to make money back from software.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

This is an interesting question. Another is when will TV's get an Android game API "built in" like they have the "Netflix" and "Hulu" apps built in now. A game framework, an online store of games, an in game purchase mechanism, and one casino game. Blam the new world arrives.

r0s 14y ago

Nintendo is now officially selling AAA titles through the online store for DSi/3DS.

rquirk 14y ago
I wonder how well they are selling? In Europe they cost 45€ a game, and are locked to that console (not to your account). I guess this is so as not to annoy their retail partners - cartridges are a much better deal, can usually be found cheaper online, and can be swapped amongst consoles. Having said that, I have bought a couple of the cheaper "A" games that cost in the 6-10€ range (V, Fallblox/Pushmo and another I've forgotten the name of). Mostly due to the lack of good 3DS games so far.
- r0s 14y ago
  I really liked Nano Assault. Gunman Clive just released and it's very good, and only like $2.00.

10char 14y ago

If you're curious about the state of console development, there's an excellent Reddit comment/thread @payne92 just shared with me: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18irx0/the_minecraft_test_how_to_tell_if_your_console_is/c8fcm4v http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18irx0/the_minecraft_... The long and short of it is a) developing a non-Xbox Indie game is incredibly expensive and prohibitive b) (for now) state of Xbox Indie game network and framework is crippled c) Steam is a much better, although still imperfect, beast to deal with.

Hansi 14y ago

With the changed in PSN+ over the last two years and the inclusion of all the free games I'm sure in the next generation I'll just go for a PS4 and PSN+ yearly subscriptions and that will cover all my gaming needs.

carno 14y ago

Playstation Mobile http://www.playstation.com/psm/index_e.html http://www.playstation.com/psm/index_e.html No devkit, just download the SDK and run on your PC. It's free to try and costs $100 year to deploy to devices and actually self publish your game.