13 ms·

A Most Peculiar Test Drive – Follow Up

277 points by neuralnetwork 14y ago

gojomo 14y ago
Musk's post does not reflect how a paper, and specifically the NYTimes Public Editor position, works. The Public Editor's opinion is not the same as the NYTimes' opinion, so it is wrong to say, as Musk does, that "The New York Times reversed its opinion". It can be an easy mistake to make, if one doesn't read carefully or understand journalistic conventions (such as the difference between signed and unsigned editorials). But the sidebar of the Public Editor's page helps to clarify: Margaret Sullivan is the fifth public editor appointed by The New York Times. She writes about the Times and its journalism in a frequent blog – the Public Editor’s Journal — and in a twice-monthly print column in the Sunday Review section. The public editor’s office also handles questions and comments from readers and investigates matters of journalistic integrity. The public editor works independently, outside of the reporting and editing structure of the newspaper; her opinions are her own. That is, the Public Editor is an in-house critic and independent opinion, but not a final arbiter or official mouthpiece.
- cremnob 14y ago
  I hope more people read this. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding by some people here about the Public Editor (which is actually an ombudsman). That's not going to stop Elon from capitalizing on their ignorance though.
MikeCapone 14y ago
Here is the piece by the NYT's public editor, Margaret Sullivan, that is referenced by Tesla: http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-with-precision-and-judgment-but-not-integrity-in-tesla-test/ http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-wi...
Breakthrough 14y ago
For those who are curious, here's the NYT article Mr. Musk is talking about: http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-with-precision-and-judgment-but-not-integrity-in-tesla-test/ http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-wi... "[...] I do not believe Mr. Broder hoped the drive would end badly. [...] Did he use good judgment along the way? Not especially. In particular, decisions he made at a crucial juncture – when he recharged the Model S in Norwich, Conn. [...] were certainly instrumental in this saga’s high-drama ending. In addition, Mr. Broder left himself open to valid criticism by taking what seem to be casual and imprecise notes along the journey, unaware that his every move was being monitored."
- cube13 14y ago
  Here's the full quote of the last one: "few conclusions that are unassailable." >"People will go on contesting these points – and insisting that they know what they prove — and that’s understandable. In the matter of the Tesla Model S and its now infamous test drive, there is still plenty to argue about and few conclusions that are unassailable." It is disingenuous to misquote to that extent.
DanBlake 14y ago
This is a major blow to Broder. (Career ending?) As unlikely as it may be, Imagine he was giving his best effort and his car did act as he wrote. What shitty luck. One thing is for sure- Reviewing a Tesla is a risky thing to do. Most other car companies wouldn't go out in public to say the review was incompetent/fake/staged.
- corresation 14y ago
  This is a major blow to Broder. (Career ending?) Is it? Musk again seems petty and vindictive, and he is quite transparently very carefully selecting pieces that essentially pitches to the converted. The editor gave a very coached response that was hardly the win that Musk seems to think it was.
  - DanBlake 14y ago
    I think the public perception of broder is that hes either: 1) Malicious/Lies to obtain desired result 2) Incompetent Neither bodes well for him.
    - protomyth 14y ago
      You would think that, but it is the New York Times and this stuff happens all the time in the politics section (blatant lying and lack of fact checking[saying the ND Senator is the SD Senator]) and nothing comes of it.
    - trotsky 14y ago
      This episode started with Tesla claiming fabrication and a breech of journalistic ethics but ended with Tesla misquoting the times and highlighting imprecise record keeping. If anything happened, the journalist was vindicated.
  - robryan 14y ago
    Had he not been though this article would have counted against tesla mostly unchallenged. In this case he has forced some concessions from the paper which may make the difference when people are researching the car for possible purchase.
Kylekramer 14y ago
For a person so obsessed with journalists' accuracy, he is pretty quick to interpret/cherrypick/adjust the public editor's piece in the best possible way for him.
- bcbrown 14y ago
  No kidding. "Public Editor agreed that John Broder had “problems with precision and judgment," “took casual and imprecise notes” and made “few conclusions that are unassailable.”" What was actually written: "In the matter of the Tesla Model S and its now infamous test drive, there is still plenty to argue about and few conclusions that are unassailable."
  - natrius 14y ago
    Mangling a quote like that is effectively lying. It's a pretty stupid move to make after succeeding in challenging the negative PR.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - taligent 14y ago
      >It's a pretty stupid move to make after succeeding in challenging the negative PR. You must be crazy if you think Tesla has "succeeded" over this.
      - natrius 14y ago
        Complaining about the article caused more people to read it, but I'd bet that most of the people who read the article have also heard about other news outlets replicating the test without issue. The most common understanding of the situation is probably that the New York Times article was an exaggeration.
- cube13 14y ago
  I'm confused. The NYT didn't retract anything. If they acknowledged that Tesla was, in fact, 100% correct, they would have done that. Go take a look at their corrections page. So how does the editor's piece actually support any of what he's saying?
Shivetya 14y ago
okay, so what instructions were given to Mr Broder prior to his trip? Surely they don't just hand the keys over and say "have fun". Reading one owner's story it appears there are settings one could use to get more range than standard range, range mode settings to extend the range, and so on. As in, perhaps the people handing the car off should have done a better job at it. There are still stories from owners of Tesla S cars who have not had the greatest experiences. Any car where it comes down to a comfortable cabin or having the range to reach the next charger screams "work in progress". I am all for new technology in cars, I just don't think the taxpayer needs to help foot the bill for luxury versions of such.
ignostic 14y ago
> "The New York Times reversed its opinion on the review of our Model S and no longer believes that it was an accurate account of what happened." Contrast with this: > "The Times have maintained that the article was done in good faith, and that it is an honest account of what happened." It's hardly accurate to say that the Times "reversed its opinion." Revised, maybe, but the article he's referring to did more side-stepping than anything. Elon isn't winning points with me by trying to spin the story to sound more favorable.
- shrikant 14y ago
  You're right, but this is a PR battle at this stage, and these are rarely known to be won on nuance and accuracy.
  - ignostic 14y ago
    Perhaps that's true for most people, but I expected more from both sides.
    - streptomycin 14y ago
      What more did you expect from the NY Times? They seem to be quite forthcoming and balanced.
      - dllthomas 14y ago
        A journalist who took better notes?
      - crusso 14y ago
        Their reporter was busted for at best being sloppy and at worst lying to grind an axe against electric vehicles -- and they delivered a mealy mouthed half-admission of fault. A controversial, sensational story that isn't "unassailable" and was shown to be very questionable should have been withdrawn without mincing words. If they want to run the tests again under more rigorous circumstances, then they're free to do so. We really should expect better from those with the job of giving us information.
mobbom 14y ago
The NYT article seemed overly dramatic, as do Tela's responses. I don't know what the point of the NYT article was - the range wasn't as stated? It loses charge overnight in cold? And of course it's going to run out of charge if you don't fully charge it. But then Tesla keeps making statements that are also exaggerated to their benefit. The NYT rebuttal wasn't as one-sided as Elon's post suggests. Hard to find someone to 100% root for in this soap opera.
mistercow 14y ago
What doesn't come across in this post is how squirmy the public editor's post is (http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-with-precision-and-judgment-but-not-integrity-in-tesla-test/ http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-wi...) . It is particularly weird that the editor seems to imply that it was somehow unfair of Tesla Motors to turn on the data recorder without telling Broder. If the Times had collected more rigorous data than Tesla and then cornered them on some claim or other without revealing that they had contradictory data, the Times would be patting themselves on the back for their hard-hitting investigative moxie. But I guess it's a different story when the shoe is on the other foot.
- csours 14y ago
  It was unfair to turn it on while representing to him that it is only turned on "with customer consent" and not telling him that they don't consider him a customer.
  - nthitz 14y ago
    Most customers actually have to purchase the vehicle rather than just getting a test model to review.
  - toomuchtodo 14y ago
    It's unfair to use your product's features to catch someone lying about said product during a review? Heaven forbid!
    - flyinRyan 14y ago
      You're being pretty ridiculous. If Border had been told the data was on he would have probably approached note taking in a completely different manner. Having not been told that he took shoddy notes and relied on human memory, perception and so on. Now the real data comes back and makes it seem like he was lying and that's not fair.
      - 14y ago
Swizec 14y ago
I think we should get a Model S review done by Clarkson. That's the only way to be sure if the car is any good. But somehow I don't see that happening after Top Gear's handling of the Roadster ... (Tesla made a big fuss when Top Gear had two teslas break down and/or run out of power during a day of testing on their track) Top Gear's conclusion at the time was the the Tesla is not suitable for the real world [yet]. Tesla of course disagreed ... publicly and loudly.
- lacksconfidence 14y ago
  The 'fuss' with top gear is that they implied the car ran out of energy and had to be pushed, while the car logging shows it never ran out of energy and had enough juice to drive back into the garage from any point on the track. Top Gear could have tried to be accurate, and just kept flogging the machine around the track until it actually ran out of energy, but they really dont care. Top Gear isnt a news show, its entertainment. Its a soap opera about cars.
  - Swizec 14y ago
    Yes. And if you figure out their idiolect it is the single most informative car show about cars I will likely never be able to afford I have ever seen.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      > idiolect A mashup of idiocy, intellect, idiosyncrasy, and dialect?
      - Swizec 14y ago
        In compliance with my "educate, don't ridicule" rule: "In linguistics, an idiolect is a variety of language that is unique to a person, as manifested by the patterns of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation that he or she uses." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect
omonra 14y ago
I think it's telling that the blog post fails to link to the NYT article. Ie - if you really need to know what the public editor said, go google it. This is a painfully obvious PR war in which the truth is the first casualty.
niggler 14y ago
For all the talk about Broder lying and manipulating the record, I would argue that the follow-up is far worse in terms of intentionally misinterpreting the facts. "Yesterday, The New York Times reversed its opinion on the review of our Model S and no longer believes that it was an accurate account of what happened." Could not be further from the truth. NYT stands behind the integrity of Broder. And it's clear based on the cherry-picked quotes in the next few sentences that Musk omitted the inconvenient facts. (quoting “problems with precision and judgment," but omitting where NYT stands by the integrity of Broder's account) The worst part of this is that Tesla still hasn't answered to the actual issue here: the advice that Tesla gave Broder. And until they actually address the issue at hand, Musk is playing games with a public that seems to worship him and want to take down NYT.
- snewman 14y ago
  Heartily agreed. I am extremely disappointed with Musk over this incident -- and now with the NYT as well, for failing to stand their (valid) ground and failing to call out Musk's blatant lies and manipulations. As the dust settles, it appears that the worst that Broder is guilty of is being less than lab-test-precise in his reporting. (He did make some unfortunate decisions, such as not charging further on various occasions, but all of these decisions strike me as entirely reasonable given the facts as he understood them at the time, and -- critically -- the advice he was given by Tesla.) It should be noted that the basic thrust of his piece appears to be entirely accurate: everything started out fine; then he started having range problems; he took significant but not drastic measures in compensation; these measures were insufficient. For instance, he may have been a bit sloppy about details such as exactly when he turned down the cabin temperature or exactly what speed he slowed down to, but it's uncontested that he did lower both temperature and speed well below what a normal driver would expect in a normal car. The car seems to have committed a sin larger than any of Broder's: it "lost" a large amount of range overnight. This was one critical element in the eventual failure (the other being various bits of bad advice from Tesla, in particular the advice to ignore the low range reading after charging for only a short period at the public station that morning). But the worst sins, by far, are Musk's. He made many sensational accusations. Some seem clearly false, such as Broder "driving in circles" in a supposed attempt to kill the battery (Broder's explanation that he was simply looking for the charging station is far more plausible). Many more of Musk's statements are deliberate distortions of the worst kind. The "battery never ran out of energy"... which may be technically true, but whatever energy may have remained in the main battery, the car was so dead that it couldn't even be towed without a flatbed truck. "Why would anyone do that?" (leaving the last charging station with insufficient charge) when it now appears uncontested that this was under explicit advice from Tesla. "Drove right past a public charge station" -- which he didn't know about, Tesla staff didn't tell him about, and Tesla staff had implied he wouldn't need. And so forth. His entire "most peculiar test drive" piece reads like something Fox News would say about an Obama policy proposal -- nitpicking, distorting, misdirecting, and outright mocking. I've always been a fan of Tesla, SpaceX, and Musk, but I will never look at him in the same way again.
mikemoka 14y ago
I know I am walking upon a mined field here, but I think that, despite his hero status, a certain kind of insecurity is showing these days from him. I mean, if you are sure you have a good product would you argue to death with a journalist or will you answer him then let the public try and judge the product on his own when it comes out? I mean, I don't think that if someone would have badly criticized the iPhone someone at Apple would have been deeply concerned, because they were certain that thousands of authors and thousands of users would have praised it soon thereafter, and a few bad opinions wouldn't have harmed it much.
- manaskarekar 14y ago
  I agree about sensing that feeling too. But I think it stems more from emotional involvement in the product in addition to what is at stake for the company at this make or break stage.
- entropy_ 14y ago
  While I fully agree with your point -- This response rubs me the wrong way too -- when it comes to cars bad PR can be way more damaging than with phones. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60_Minutes#Unintended_acceleration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60_Minutes#Unintended_accelerat... (referenced by someone higher up in the thread). One TV show with a car that had been tampered with caused a massive amount of lost sales for Audi, to the point where they considered pulling out of the US market entirely. Sales didn't bounce back for a full 15 years. I can definitely see why someone in the auto industry would be extremely touchy about things they think were written by journalists in bad faith.
DigitalSea 14y ago
I guess Broder will be looking for a new job shortly. If that's the case, is this guy now finished as a journalist? I mean, he made some pretty big mistakes here (even if not intentional) his actions have been seen as damaging to the Tesla brand (only short-term though).
- DigitalSea 14y ago
  Would be nice to know why my comment is being down voted. It wasn't spammy, insulting and I thought it was on cue. This is my opinion, it's these kind of unwarranted actions that are detrimental to HN. The community of this place has taken a massive downward spiral in the last year or so
  - rsofaer 14y ago
    It's just wrong for reasons that are covered in comments near the top. The public editor isn't part of Broder's management, and Musk is vastly exaggerating what she wrote about Broder anyhow.
  - biot 14y ago
    Here is what pg had said about downvoting over the years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2435588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2435588 In short, downvoting to express disagreement has always been done and is reasonable. Also, "Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."
  - tokenadult 14y ago
    Here's a friendly suggestion: if you notice downvotes on a comment during its edit window (the first two hours the comment is posted), just edit the comment, with a FRIENDLY question asking why people disagree with you. (It can be assumed that downvotes are prompted by disagreement, and as someone else has already reminded you, that has always been permitted by the culture here.) It's okay to fix a comment with an addition (I usually mark additions to my comments with the phrase "AFTER EDIT") to respond to how people react to your comment at first. We all have opinions here, and I can learn from anybody here, whether they agree with me or not.
joe_the_user 14y ago
Let's figure what the important points are. The Times effectively said "well, our review wasn't quite true but..." And Tesla figuratively jumped in and said "Hey, I'm glad you admitted your review wasn't true". Seems like a fine way to end things. Sure, one could say "But - but, the 'truth is the middle'..." Sure but when you're publishing a review that going to have an economic effect on a company, you have an obligation to both not be false and to not be "sloppy to the point of falsity". So what if Broder was found to not be engaging in an malicious falsification? That the Times admitted Broder was far too sloppy is enough so that Tesla's job of protecting his company's reputation is done.
- makomk 14y ago
  The Times review had some details that were incorrect, but getting them right wouldn't have made it any more favourable to Tesla. Elon Musk's response, on the other hand was both technically accurate and fundamentally dishonest. Technically the car may not have run out of battery power, but it was dead until recharged nonetheless. Technically it reported its range accurately on the last leg, but that was no help to Broder since once he found out it had lost most of its range overnight there wasn't enough left to make it to the Supercharger. If you look at the logs, he did drive around for 0.6 miles on empty when he reached the second charger - but that's what happens if you miss the turning. He could've charged completely rather than just to 28%, but Elon neglected to mention that would've taken 10 hours, longer than it actually took to complete the trip including breaking down and getting towed! And so on, and so forth. Broder's figures are wrong, but Elon's entire story is basically a lie, and that's far worse.
- DrizzitT 14y ago
  Interesting. Only when it comes to the defense of Musk, we can "figure what the important points are"? The Times review's important points were "Supercharger distances are a bit iffy and cold weather drastically affects driving distances" Tesla's important points were "Hey, since you quoted your speed wrong, I'm going to accuse you of lying/intentional sabotage and ignore all other issues/bury the criticisms" To be honest, the Tesla owners telemetry drives confirms Broder's issues on the first 200 mile leg to Milford. I believe 4 out of 6 drivers ended with < 30 miles remaining (one with 3 miles remaining I believe) on a full 100% 270 mile range charge. Broder charged to 240. Broder made many stupid choices. But the "important points" are that more superchargers are needed (confirmed by CNN), and cold weather affects battery level (confirmed by Consumer Reports). There were many ways of dealing with those two issues while showing that Broder had a outlying experience without turning this into a media whinestorm.
aresant 14y ago
Musk is filtering the NYT's response when he says: "the Public Editor agreed that John Broder had “problems with precision and judgment," “took casual and imprecise notes” and made “few conclusions that are unassailable.”" Let me try to cherry pick some points from the very same NYT response (1), spun towards the opposite conclusion: "Mr. Musk presented his data "in the most damaging (and sometimes quite misleading) way possible" and "I am convinced that [Broder] . . . told the story as he experienced it." My point isn't that my choice quotes above are accurate, but that Musk's assessment is disingenuous to the NYT's response, and that's in the first paragraph of his article. I'm not sure what Musk is trying to accomplish at this point, his "spin" is transparent and it feels condescending. Tesla's goodwill in my eyes is fast eroding. (1) http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-with-precision-and-judgment-but-not-integrity-in-tesla-test/ http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-wi...
- wuest 14y ago
  > I'm not sure what Musk is trying to accomplish at this point, his "spin" is transparent and it feels condescending. Musk has apparently decided after Top Gear that negative press is going to be an issue which he will fight to the death. It certainly feels like he's digging his way out of this particular PR hole.
  - venus 14y ago
    > he's digging his way out of this particular PR hole Out of? Or into? I have to admit I like Musk a lot more when he keeps his mouth shut. With this and his ludicrous Boeing grandstanding, he is sounding less like a mature, visionary CEO with every word he says.
    - wuest 14y ago
      > Out of? Or into? I'd argue into. He appears to think he's digging his way out.
    - snogglethorpe 14y ago
      Yeah, Musk has done some great things, but he seems the sort of person best admired from a distance with some vaseline on the lens... looking too closely reveals something rather less admirable. [e.g. his "I'm the alpha in this relationship" quote,† at his wedding... I mean, that's downright creepy...] † http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/millionaire-starter-wife http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/mill... [note: I originally cited http://www.esquire.com/features/americans-2012/elon-musk-interview-1212-4 http://www.esquire.com/features/americans-2012/elon-musk-int... as a source for the quote, and some replies refer to it, not the Marie Claire op-ed (which is a more direct source).]
venus 14y ago
> But, most of all, we would like to thank our customers, who rallied immediately to the defense of Tesla and the electric car revolution, sending hundreds of heartfelt letters of support to The New York Times in the space of a few days! Holy propaganda style writing batman. Does Musk's business card for Tesla have the job title Dear Leader?
doktrin 14y ago
I am losing respect for Musk with every subsequent chapter of this PR blitz. What at first promised to be a battle of facts vs fiction is instead turning into yet another word-twisting smear campaign. This is disingenuous. In fact, his willingness to blatantly twist the words of the NYT calls into question all his previous statements (including some of the interpretations surrounding the data collected during the drive). Unfortunate.
ScottBurson 14y ago
Viewing one's product through almost ridiculously rose-colored glasses seems to be a necessary attitude for a visionary product leader. Steve Jobs certainly had it. Perhaps that level of enthusiasm is required in order to get these products built. In any case, Broder's review and the subsequent donnybrook don't make me any less likely to buy a Tesla -- not that I have that kind of cash lying around :-) I've owned rechargeable devices for years. I'm well aware of what's involved in maintaining batteries, and it would never even occur to me not to plug in my electric car overnight, if I had one. D'oh! as they say.
tokenadult 14y ago
I had better recycle some electrons to mention a neglected article about the Tesla Model S that is not part of the crossfire between Elon Musk and the New York Times. There was an extensive, and on the whole rather favorable, review of the Model S from The Verge http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/12/3969260/going-the-distance-driving-tesla-model-s-in-the-real-world http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/12/3969260/going-the-distance... submitted to HN while most participants were discussing the original New York Times review by John Broder. (Most participants missed the discussion on the article from The Verge.) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5208154 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5208154 The author of the report in The Verge takes care to mention, "Tesla hopes for its first quarter of black ink this year after a decade of operation, but make no mistake, it’s still in the throes of startupdom. Much of its working capital has come from nearly half a billion dollars in low-interest rate government loans. It has just a few dozen dealers around the world." Elon Musk seems desperate to stay in spin mode about any article on the Model S that is less than laudatory precisely because he can't brag up his company by referring to market share or sales growth or other issues that most entrepreneurs refer to. AFTER EDIT: I appreciate the kind reply that mentions that Tesla Motors reports fourth quarter results tomorrow (Wednesday 20 February 2013). That will be interesting reading. Of course I was referring to the kind of general statement that a president of a successful company can make along the lines of "We have a growing, profitable business, and the word of mouth from our customers in cold states speaks for itself." But that's not what I hear from Musk, but rather nit-picking about published reviews. The comment below prompted me to look up some investor news about Tesla, and I found a Motley Fool blog post http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/this-weeks-5-dumbest-stock-moves-tesla-motors-inc-tsla-65147/ http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/this-weeks-5-dumbest-stock... commenting on the results of Musk's initial response to the New York Times review: "Tesla had to defend itself on this, but drawing more attention to the incident in a way that forces Tesla drivers to be patient through recharging stations, lighter on the accelerator, and focused on the most direct path from one destination to another doesn't sound like potent marketing material for a car that costs at least $60,000."
- revelation 14y ago
  Well, he can't because Tesla (TSLA) is a public company and releases its Q4 report tomorrow on the 20th. He can't possibly "leak" detailed numbers on market share, sales growth etc. That said, the Verges review is worth reading (and watching) for the video editing alone.
supercanuck 14y ago
Judging by this thread, is appears Elon Musk is losing his innocence.
querulous 14y ago
The two biggest failings of the Tesla S highlighted by Broder still remain unaddressed. The overnight discharge of the battery and the questionable instruction by Tesla representatives are still question marks that Elon Musk has done nothing to refute.
alan_cx 14y ago
At this point my head drops in t my hands and I sigh. Basically, with out having to say anything it can look like the NYT did concede. Just superficially, but enough. However, now we have yet another response form Tesla, people, like the people here, will go over it work by word to see if it all squares up now. And of course it doesn't. So what's next, another response from NYT? If it were me, I'd have stopped this right after the NYT article. Both sides could declare some sort of victory and lessons learned, and move on. Now, of course, Tesla open up again fro more scrutiny, and as people here have pointed out in detail, Tesla don't stand up. All this will do is entrench opinion and further increase the notion that Musk is a man who makes false claims and freaks out when called out. That is how the motor world sees him. Which to my mind is mad because Musk will need the support of these guys to sell units. Perhaps Musk feels he can ignore the motor industry culture entirely and create a whole new one for electric. If that's the idea, then OK, fine. But if so, he has a right battle on his hands, and I suggest he doesn't need it when IMHO what he needs to do is continue to develop and perfect his product. But then, why keep trying to court the motor industry? Maybe that is the way to go. Completely ignore the current motor culture, and create a whole new culture for electric vehicles. I mean, the railway industry doesn't court the motor industry. Or vice versa. Car manufacturers dont try to impress train manufacturers. They are totally separate. So, separate out the electric car culture. Just a wild thought!!!
DannoHung 14y ago
Things to take note if you ever decide to do business with Musk's companies as a customer: He will twist every word and fact possible if something doesn't go right publicly.
b1daly 14y ago
While it does seem Musk might actually feel personally aggrieved, I see the situation as follows: In spite of a lot of progress on making a fully electric car, the Tesla S has obvious shortcomings as a replacement for an ICE car. Mainly, it requires constant vigilance to maintain the battery, and the battery is subject to unpredictable behavior with regards to predicted range and maintaining a charge, which are worsened by cold. These weaknesses were illustrated by the original NYT article, and no amount of spin, or "better" reporting can change this. Musk knows that once a meme gets started along the lines of ""Tesla is the car that leaves you stranded unpredictably and doesn't work in cold climate" gets started, it is game over for reaching a mass market. So the story is a potential existential threat to the company, requiring maximum response. Losing credibility with some of the HN crowd is not such a threat, the market they represent is tiny. He mainly needed to bring up doubts about the story enough to prevent it from becoming a defining story on the S. It might not have been pretty, but in this I would say he succeeded.
recoiledsnake 14y ago
Musk's response has no answers to the following key questions 1) Was Broder advised to brake frequently to use regenerative braking? (This kills the battery). 2) How much displayed/real charge does the car lose overnight in cold weather? 3) Was Broder advised that heating the cabin will increased the displayed range? 4) When Musk said the battery never ran out of charge what did he mean? That was meant to cast doubt on Broder implying he called the towing company needlessly, but a Tesla rep spent a long time with the towing truck driver on the phone and couldn't get it to release the parking brake. Why the technical BS nitpicking stating the battery still had charge if it was totally useless? Broder gave us the times and names of support reps and all we get is this extreme piece of worthless spin? The fact that he's not answering the above questions leads me to believe that Broder was given some really bad advice by incompetent reps and Musk is trying to shift the blame completely onto Broder. Broder should've recorded the support phone calls without telling Tesla, just like they turned on logging on the car he was driving.
- pacala 14y ago
  I can only hope that from now on reviewers of Mr. Musk cars will turn their mobile phones in data recording stations and even the field. Broder was taken by surprise; there is little precedent for the kind of irrelevant spin he was the subject of.
- uvdiv 14y ago
  Add to that 5) What were the cruise control setpoints? This data must certainly have been logged, and Musk hasn't released it. Musk accused Broder of lying about using cruise control. So why not back this up with direct evidence, why only release speedometer logs? My inference is that these logs must support Broder's account very strongly.
- deleted 14y ago
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MarkMc 14y ago
Musk is showing bad judgement by mis-characterising the change in attitude of The New York Times. Broder showed poor judgement by leaving a charging station with an estimated range of half the distance he wanted to travel. Margaret Sullivan is the one person who seems to have good judgement in this whole affair.
dylangs1030 14y ago
I'm not going to say he's wrong, but Musk's response is a little condescending. Two parties are fighting over public image, I get that. It didn't have to escalate to this point, but it did. And now, when Musk has essentially emerged victorious, he makes a further blog post to grind his heel into Broder while he's down? That's not honorable.
scragg 14y ago
Anyone on HN own or reserved a Model S? I'm thinking of reserving the cheaper configs.
codex 14y ago
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." -- Hamlet, Act III, scene II
SeanLuke 14y ago
I think that Tesla has a legitimate complaint with the NYT for the article. But the very first sentence of this post is a bald falsehood: > Yesterday, The New York Times reversed its opinion on the review of our Model S and no longer believes that it was an accurate account of what happened. The public editor is not the New York Times' opinion. She is the newspaper's ombudsman. Her opinions are entirely her own and are independent of the newspaper, and indeed often are at odds with the newspaper's policy or opinion. This is not just spin, it's a petty and unnecessary lie. Musk has blown a lot of credibility with me. Edit. This post comes at a curious time: Tesla's potentially make-or-break quarterly earnings report is due the next day.
deleted 14y ago
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nicpottier 14y ago
"Entirely of their own volition, several customers spent the past holiday weekend recreating the Broder test drive route and showing that it can be done easily using the Tesla Supercharger network on the East Coast. " Musk loses some points here by not being exactly forthcoming about the details of the 'community drive' that took place, which actually required an over the air update to complete due to one of the cars not taking a full charge: Source: http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/18/tesla-model-s-road-trip-drivers-have-no-problem-video/ http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/18/tesla-model-s-road-trip... He should have just left that bit out, now it calls the rest into question.
nnq 14y ago
Are there really such things as honest car reviews?! ...I guess EM just made a really bad judgement: he pushed his "candy money" too late towards NYT, or he somehow managed to push it to the wring person! (this really bodes bad on the public image of his business skills, so this could make some over-cautious people reconsider investing in his businesses - though I'd still place my bet on him ;) )
eps 14y ago
If nothing else, the media will now think twice before giving an unfavorable review to Tesla cars. On the other hand, the paid-for crtique and general crusade against electrical vehicles will now probably shift to less notable outlets, but on a larger scale. Think - dozens blog posts detailing bad ownership experiences, and not with company loaners that log every bleep, but with actually bought cars. It'd be interesting to see how Tesle is going to handle this... because frankly I don't think they can.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  >If nothing else, the media will now think twice before giving an unfavorable review to Tesla cars. You think so? I would think the opposite. Tesla has no power but to throw a fit and act foolish. If anything, I would expect future reviews to approach the review negatively and defensively.
bambax 14y ago
> The bottom line is that the Model S combined with Supercharging works well for a long road trip, even in a cold, snowy winter. No. The bottom line is you can't drive the Model S in winter even if you have the time or inclination to call a dedicated Tesla support line a total of twelve times during a two-day trip. The bottom line is Tesla's advice is worthless. The bottom line is you should plug the car in every instant it's not running (which is exactly what the user manual says). - - - I used to be a heavy smoker. What made me stop is, everywhere I went, the only thing I could think about was "where can I get cigarettes if I run out?" I would not like to drive a car that would put me in the same state of mind.

277 points by neuralnetwork 14y ago

Musk's post does not reflect how a paper, and specifically the NYTimes Public Editor position, works. The Public Editor's opinion is not the same as the NYTimes' opinion, so it is wrong to say, as Musk does, that "The New York Times reversed its opinion". It can be an easy mistake to make, if one doesn't read carefully or understand journalistic conventions (such as the difference between signed and unsigned editorials). But the sidebar of the Public Editor's page helps to clarify: Margaret Sullivan is the fifth public editor appointed by The New York Times. She writes about the Times and its journalism in a frequent blog – the Public Editor’s Journal — and in a twice-monthly print column in the Sunday Review section. The public editor’s office also handles questions and comments from readers and investigates matters of journalistic integrity. The public editor works independently, outside of the reporting and editing structure of the newspaper; her opinions are her own. That is, the Public Editor is an in-house critic and independent opinion, but not a final arbiter or official mouthpiece.

cremnob 14y ago
I hope more people read this. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding by some people here about the Public Editor (which is actually an ombudsman). That's not going to stop Elon from capitalizing on their ignorance though.

MikeCapone 14y ago

Here is the piece by the NYT's public editor, Margaret Sullivan, that is referenced by Tesla: http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-with-precision-and-judgment-but-not-integrity-in-tesla-test/ http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-wi...

Breakthrough 14y ago

For those who are curious, here's the NYT article Mr. Musk is talking about: http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-with-precision-and-judgment-but-not-integrity-in-tesla-test/ http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-wi... "[...] I do not believe Mr. Broder hoped the drive would end badly. [...] Did he use good judgment along the way? Not especially. In particular, decisions he made at a crucial juncture – when he recharged the Model S in Norwich, Conn. [...] were certainly instrumental in this saga’s high-drama ending. In addition, Mr. Broder left himself open to valid criticism by taking what seem to be casual and imprecise notes along the journey, unaware that his every move was being monitored."

cube13 14y ago
Here's the full quote of the last one: "few conclusions that are unassailable." >"People will go on contesting these points – and insisting that they know what they prove — and that’s understandable. In the matter of the Tesla Model S and its now infamous test drive, there is still plenty to argue about and few conclusions that are unassailable." It is disingenuous to misquote to that extent.

DanBlake 14y ago

This is a major blow to Broder. (Career ending?) As unlikely as it may be, Imagine he was giving his best effort and his car did act as he wrote. What shitty luck. One thing is for sure- Reviewing a Tesla is a risky thing to do. Most other car companies wouldn't go out in public to say the review was incompetent/fake/staged.

corresation 14y ago
This is a major blow to Broder. (Career ending?) Is it? Musk again seems petty and vindictive, and he is quite transparently very carefully selecting pieces that essentially pitches to the converted. The editor gave a very coached response that was hardly the win that Musk seems to think it was.
- DanBlake 14y ago
  I think the public perception of broder is that hes either: 1) Malicious/Lies to obtain desired result 2) Incompetent Neither bodes well for him.
  - protomyth 14y ago
    You would think that, but it is the New York Times and this stuff happens all the time in the politics section (blatant lying and lack of fact checking[saying the ND Senator is the SD Senator]) and nothing comes of it.
  - trotsky 14y ago
    This episode started with Tesla claiming fabrication and a breech of journalistic ethics but ended with Tesla misquoting the times and highlighting imprecise record keeping. If anything happened, the journalist was vindicated.
- robryan 14y ago
  Had he not been though this article would have counted against tesla mostly unchallenged. In this case he has forced some concessions from the paper which may make the difference when people are researching the car for possible purchase.

Kylekramer 14y ago

For a person so obsessed with journalists' accuracy, he is pretty quick to interpret/cherrypick/adjust the public editor's piece in the best possible way for him.

bcbrown 14y ago
No kidding. "Public Editor agreed that John Broder had “problems with precision and judgment," “took casual and imprecise notes” and made “few conclusions that are unassailable.”" What was actually written: "In the matter of the Tesla Model S and its now infamous test drive, there is still plenty to argue about and few conclusions that are unassailable."
- natrius 14y ago
  Mangling a quote like that is effectively lying. It's a pretty stupid move to make after succeeding in challenging the negative PR.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - taligent 14y ago
    >It's a pretty stupid move to make after succeeding in challenging the negative PR. You must be crazy if you think Tesla has "succeeded" over this.
    - natrius 14y ago
      Complaining about the article caused more people to read it, but I'd bet that most of the people who read the article have also heard about other news outlets replicating the test without issue. The most common understanding of the situation is probably that the New York Times article was an exaggeration.
cube13 14y ago
I'm confused. The NYT didn't retract anything. If they acknowledged that Tesla was, in fact, 100% correct, they would have done that. Go take a look at their corrections page. So how does the editor's piece actually support any of what he's saying?

Shivetya 14y ago

okay, so what instructions were given to Mr Broder prior to his trip? Surely they don't just hand the keys over and say "have fun". Reading one owner's story it appears there are settings one could use to get more range than standard range, range mode settings to extend the range, and so on. As in, perhaps the people handing the car off should have done a better job at it. There are still stories from owners of Tesla S cars who have not had the greatest experiences. Any car where it comes down to a comfortable cabin or having the range to reach the next charger screams "work in progress". I am all for new technology in cars, I just don't think the taxpayer needs to help foot the bill for luxury versions of such.

ignostic 14y ago

> "The New York Times reversed its opinion on the review of our Model S and no longer believes that it was an accurate account of what happened." Contrast with this: > "The Times have maintained that the article was done in good faith, and that it is an honest account of what happened." It's hardly accurate to say that the Times "reversed its opinion." Revised, maybe, but the article he's referring to did more side-stepping than anything. Elon isn't winning points with me by trying to spin the story to sound more favorable.

shrikant 14y ago
You're right, but this is a PR battle at this stage, and these are rarely known to be won on nuance and accuracy.
- ignostic 14y ago
  Perhaps that's true for most people, but I expected more from both sides.
  - streptomycin 14y ago
    What more did you expect from the NY Times? They seem to be quite forthcoming and balanced.
    - dllthomas 14y ago
      A journalist who took better notes?
    - crusso 14y ago
      Their reporter was busted for at best being sloppy and at worst lying to grind an axe against electric vehicles -- and they delivered a mealy mouthed half-admission of fault. A controversial, sensational story that isn't "unassailable" and was shown to be very questionable should have been withdrawn without mincing words. If they want to run the tests again under more rigorous circumstances, then they're free to do so. We really should expect better from those with the job of giving us information.

mobbom 14y ago

The NYT article seemed overly dramatic, as do Tela's responses. I don't know what the point of the NYT article was - the range wasn't as stated? It loses charge overnight in cold? And of course it's going to run out of charge if you don't fully charge it. But then Tesla keeps making statements that are also exaggerated to their benefit. The NYT rebuttal wasn't as one-sided as Elon's post suggests. Hard to find someone to 100% root for in this soap opera.

mistercow 14y ago

What doesn't come across in this post is how squirmy the public editor's post is (http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-with-precision-and-judgment-but-not-integrity-in-tesla-test/ http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-wi...) . It is particularly weird that the editor seems to imply that it was somehow unfair of Tesla Motors to turn on the data recorder without telling Broder. If the Times had collected more rigorous data than Tesla and then cornered them on some claim or other without revealing that they had contradictory data, the Times would be patting themselves on the back for their hard-hitting investigative moxie. But I guess it's a different story when the shoe is on the other foot.

csours 14y ago
It was unfair to turn it on while representing to him that it is only turned on "with customer consent" and not telling him that they don't consider him a customer.
- nthitz 14y ago
  Most customers actually have to purchase the vehicle rather than just getting a test model to review.
- toomuchtodo 14y ago
  It's unfair to use your product's features to catch someone lying about said product during a review? Heaven forbid!
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    You're being pretty ridiculous. If Border had been told the data was on he would have probably approached note taking in a completely different manner. Having not been told that he took shoddy notes and relied on human memory, perception and so on. Now the real data comes back and makes it seem like he was lying and that's not fair.
    - 14y ago

Swizec 14y ago

I think we should get a Model S review done by Clarkson. That's the only way to be sure if the car is any good. But somehow I don't see that happening after Top Gear's handling of the Roadster ... (Tesla made a big fuss when Top Gear had two teslas break down and/or run out of power during a day of testing on their track) Top Gear's conclusion at the time was the the Tesla is not suitable for the real world [yet]. Tesla of course disagreed ... publicly and loudly.

lacksconfidence 14y ago
The 'fuss' with top gear is that they implied the car ran out of energy and had to be pushed, while the car logging shows it never ran out of energy and had enough juice to drive back into the garage from any point on the track. Top Gear could have tried to be accurate, and just kept flogging the machine around the track until it actually ran out of energy, but they really dont care. Top Gear isnt a news show, its entertainment. Its a soap opera about cars.
- Swizec 14y ago
  Yes. And if you figure out their idiolect it is the single most informative car show about cars I will likely never be able to afford I have ever seen.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    > idiolect A mashup of idiocy, intellect, idiosyncrasy, and dialect?
    - Swizec 14y ago
      In compliance with my "educate, don't ridicule" rule: "In linguistics, an idiolect is a variety of language that is unique to a person, as manifested by the patterns of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation that he or she uses." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect

omonra 14y ago

I think it's telling that the blog post fails to link to the NYT article. Ie - if you really need to know what the public editor said, go google it. This is a painfully obvious PR war in which the truth is the first casualty.

niggler 14y ago

For all the talk about Broder lying and manipulating the record, I would argue that the follow-up is far worse in terms of intentionally misinterpreting the facts. "Yesterday, The New York Times reversed its opinion on the review of our Model S and no longer believes that it was an accurate account of what happened." Could not be further from the truth. NYT stands behind the integrity of Broder. And it's clear based on the cherry-picked quotes in the next few sentences that Musk omitted the inconvenient facts. (quoting “problems with precision and judgment," but omitting where NYT stands by the integrity of Broder's account) The worst part of this is that Tesla still hasn't answered to the actual issue here: the advice that Tesla gave Broder. And until they actually address the issue at hand, Musk is playing games with a public that seems to worship him and want to take down NYT.

snewman 14y ago
Heartily agreed. I am extremely disappointed with Musk over this incident -- and now with the NYT as well, for failing to stand their (valid) ground and failing to call out Musk's blatant lies and manipulations. As the dust settles, it appears that the worst that Broder is guilty of is being less than lab-test-precise in his reporting. (He did make some unfortunate decisions, such as not charging further on various occasions, but all of these decisions strike me as entirely reasonable given the facts as he understood them at the time, and -- critically -- the advice he was given by Tesla.) It should be noted that the basic thrust of his piece appears to be entirely accurate: everything started out fine; then he started having range problems; he took significant but not drastic measures in compensation; these measures were insufficient. For instance, he may have been a bit sloppy about details such as exactly when he turned down the cabin temperature or exactly what speed he slowed down to, but it's uncontested that he did lower both temperature and speed well below what a normal driver would expect in a normal car. The car seems to have committed a sin larger than any of Broder's: it "lost" a large amount of range overnight. This was one critical element in the eventual failure (the other being various bits of bad advice from Tesla, in particular the advice to ignore the low range reading after charging for only a short period at the public station that morning). But the worst sins, by far, are Musk's. He made many sensational accusations. Some seem clearly false, such as Broder "driving in circles" in a supposed attempt to kill the battery (Broder's explanation that he was simply looking for the charging station is far more plausible). Many more of Musk's statements are deliberate distortions of the worst kind. The "battery never ran out of energy"... which may be technically true, but whatever energy may have remained in the main battery, the car was so dead that it couldn't even be towed without a flatbed truck. "Why would anyone do that?" (leaving the last charging station with insufficient charge) when it now appears uncontested that this was under explicit advice from Tesla. "Drove right past a public charge station" -- which he didn't know about, Tesla staff didn't tell him about, and Tesla staff had implied he wouldn't need. And so forth. His entire "most peculiar test drive" piece reads like something Fox News would say about an Obama policy proposal -- nitpicking, distorting, misdirecting, and outright mocking. I've always been a fan of Tesla, SpaceX, and Musk, but I will never look at him in the same way again.

mikemoka 14y ago

I know I am walking upon a mined field here, but I think that, despite his hero status, a certain kind of insecurity is showing these days from him. I mean, if you are sure you have a good product would you argue to death with a journalist or will you answer him then let the public try and judge the product on his own when it comes out? I mean, I don't think that if someone would have badly criticized the iPhone someone at Apple would have been deeply concerned, because they were certain that thousands of authors and thousands of users would have praised it soon thereafter, and a few bad opinions wouldn't have harmed it much.

manaskarekar 14y ago
I agree about sensing that feeling too. But I think it stems more from emotional involvement in the product in addition to what is at stake for the company at this make or break stage.
entropy_ 14y ago
While I fully agree with your point -- This response rubs me the wrong way too -- when it comes to cars bad PR can be way more damaging than with phones. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60_Minutes#Unintended_acceleration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60_Minutes#Unintended_accelerat... (referenced by someone higher up in the thread). One TV show with a car that had been tampered with caused a massive amount of lost sales for Audi, to the point where they considered pulling out of the US market entirely. Sales didn't bounce back for a full 15 years. I can definitely see why someone in the auto industry would be extremely touchy about things they think were written by journalists in bad faith.

DigitalSea 14y ago

I guess Broder will be looking for a new job shortly. If that's the case, is this guy now finished as a journalist? I mean, he made some pretty big mistakes here (even if not intentional) his actions have been seen as damaging to the Tesla brand (only short-term though).

DigitalSea 14y ago
Would be nice to know why my comment is being down voted. It wasn't spammy, insulting and I thought it was on cue. This is my opinion, it's these kind of unwarranted actions that are detrimental to HN. The community of this place has taken a massive downward spiral in the last year or so
- rsofaer 14y ago
  It's just wrong for reasons that are covered in comments near the top. The public editor isn't part of Broder's management, and Musk is vastly exaggerating what she wrote about Broder anyhow.
- biot 14y ago
  Here is what pg had said about downvoting over the years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2435588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2435588 In short, downvoting to express disagreement has always been done and is reasonable. Also, "Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."
- tokenadult 14y ago
  Here's a friendly suggestion: if you notice downvotes on a comment during its edit window (the first two hours the comment is posted), just edit the comment, with a FRIENDLY question asking why people disagree with you. (It can be assumed that downvotes are prompted by disagreement, and as someone else has already reminded you, that has always been permitted by the culture here.) It's okay to fix a comment with an addition (I usually mark additions to my comments with the phrase "AFTER EDIT") to respond to how people react to your comment at first. We all have opinions here, and I can learn from anybody here, whether they agree with me or not.

joe_the_user 14y ago

Let's figure what the important points are. The Times effectively said "well, our review wasn't quite true but..." And Tesla figuratively jumped in and said "Hey, I'm glad you admitted your review wasn't true". Seems like a fine way to end things. Sure, one could say "But - but, the 'truth is the middle'..." Sure but when you're publishing a review that going to have an economic effect on a company, you have an obligation to both not be false and to not be "sloppy to the point of falsity". So what if Broder was found to not be engaging in an malicious falsification? That the Times admitted Broder was far too sloppy is enough so that Tesla's job of protecting his company's reputation is done.

makomk 14y ago
The Times review had some details that were incorrect, but getting them right wouldn't have made it any more favourable to Tesla. Elon Musk's response, on the other hand was both technically accurate and fundamentally dishonest. Technically the car may not have run out of battery power, but it was dead until recharged nonetheless. Technically it reported its range accurately on the last leg, but that was no help to Broder since once he found out it had lost most of its range overnight there wasn't enough left to make it to the Supercharger. If you look at the logs, he did drive around for 0.6 miles on empty when he reached the second charger - but that's what happens if you miss the turning. He could've charged completely rather than just to 28%, but Elon neglected to mention that would've taken 10 hours, longer than it actually took to complete the trip including breaking down and getting towed! And so on, and so forth. Broder's figures are wrong, but Elon's entire story is basically a lie, and that's far worse.
DrizzitT 14y ago
Interesting. Only when it comes to the defense of Musk, we can "figure what the important points are"? The Times review's important points were "Supercharger distances are a bit iffy and cold weather drastically affects driving distances" Tesla's important points were "Hey, since you quoted your speed wrong, I'm going to accuse you of lying/intentional sabotage and ignore all other issues/bury the criticisms" To be honest, the Tesla owners telemetry drives confirms Broder's issues on the first 200 mile leg to Milford. I believe 4 out of 6 drivers ended with < 30 miles remaining (one with 3 miles remaining I believe) on a full 100% 270 mile range charge. Broder charged to 240. Broder made many stupid choices. But the "important points" are that more superchargers are needed (confirmed by CNN), and cold weather affects battery level (confirmed by Consumer Reports). There were many ways of dealing with those two issues while showing that Broder had a outlying experience without turning this into a media whinestorm.

aresant 14y ago

Musk is filtering the NYT's response when he says: "the Public Editor agreed that John Broder had “problems with precision and judgment," “took casual and imprecise notes” and made “few conclusions that are unassailable.”" Let me try to cherry pick some points from the very same NYT response (1), spun towards the opposite conclusion: "Mr. Musk presented his data "in the most damaging (and sometimes quite misleading) way possible" and "I am convinced that [Broder] . . . told the story as he experienced it." My point isn't that my choice quotes above are accurate, but that Musk's assessment is disingenuous to the NYT's response, and that's in the first paragraph of his article. I'm not sure what Musk is trying to accomplish at this point, his "spin" is transparent and it feels condescending. Tesla's goodwill in my eyes is fast eroding. (1) http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-with-precision-and-judgment-but-not-integrity-in-tesla-test/ http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/problems-wi...

wuest 14y ago
> I'm not sure what Musk is trying to accomplish at this point, his "spin" is transparent and it feels condescending. Musk has apparently decided after Top Gear that negative press is going to be an issue which he will fight to the death. It certainly feels like he's digging his way out of this particular PR hole.
- venus 14y ago
  > he's digging his way out of this particular PR hole Out of? Or into? I have to admit I like Musk a lot more when he keeps his mouth shut. With this and his ludicrous Boeing grandstanding, he is sounding less like a mature, visionary CEO with every word he says.
  - wuest 14y ago
    > Out of? Or into? I'd argue into. He appears to think he's digging his way out.
  - snogglethorpe 14y ago
    Yeah, Musk has done some great things, but he seems the sort of person best admired from a distance with some vaseline on the lens... looking too closely reveals something rather less admirable. [e.g. his "I'm the alpha in this relationship" quote,† at his wedding... I mean, that's downright creepy...] † http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/millionaire-starter-wife http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/mill... [note: I originally cited http://www.esquire.com/features/americans-2012/elon-musk-interview-1212-4 http://www.esquire.com/features/americans-2012/elon-musk-int... as a source for the quote, and some replies refer to it, not the Marie Claire op-ed (which is a more direct source).]

venus 14y ago

> But, most of all, we would like to thank our customers, who rallied immediately to the defense of Tesla and the electric car revolution, sending hundreds of heartfelt letters of support to The New York Times in the space of a few days! Holy propaganda style writing batman. Does Musk's business card for Tesla have the job title Dear Leader?

doktrin 14y ago

I am losing respect for Musk with every subsequent chapter of this PR blitz. What at first promised to be a battle of facts vs fiction is instead turning into yet another word-twisting smear campaign. This is disingenuous. In fact, his willingness to blatantly twist the words of the NYT calls into question all his previous statements (including some of the interpretations surrounding the data collected during the drive). Unfortunate.

ScottBurson 14y ago

Viewing one's product through almost ridiculously rose-colored glasses seems to be a necessary attitude for a visionary product leader. Steve Jobs certainly had it. Perhaps that level of enthusiasm is required in order to get these products built. In any case, Broder's review and the subsequent donnybrook don't make me any less likely to buy a Tesla -- not that I have that kind of cash lying around :-) I've owned rechargeable devices for years. I'm well aware of what's involved in maintaining batteries, and it would never even occur to me not to plug in my electric car overnight, if I had one. D'oh! as they say.

tokenadult 14y ago

I had better recycle some electrons to mention a neglected article about the Tesla Model S that is not part of the crossfire between Elon Musk and the New York Times. There was an extensive, and on the whole rather favorable, review of the Model S from The Verge http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/12/3969260/going-the-distance-driving-tesla-model-s-in-the-real-world http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/12/3969260/going-the-distance... submitted to HN while most participants were discussing the original New York Times review by John Broder. (Most participants missed the discussion on the article from The Verge.) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5208154 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5208154 The author of the report in The Verge takes care to mention, "Tesla hopes for its first quarter of black ink this year after a decade of operation, but make no mistake, it’s still in the throes of startupdom. Much of its working capital has come from nearly half a billion dollars in low-interest rate government loans. It has just a few dozen dealers around the world." Elon Musk seems desperate to stay in spin mode about any article on the Model S that is less than laudatory precisely because he can't brag up his company by referring to market share or sales growth or other issues that most entrepreneurs refer to. AFTER EDIT: I appreciate the kind reply that mentions that Tesla Motors reports fourth quarter results tomorrow (Wednesday 20 February 2013). That will be interesting reading. Of course I was referring to the kind of general statement that a president of a successful company can make along the lines of "We have a growing, profitable business, and the word of mouth from our customers in cold states speaks for itself." But that's not what I hear from Musk, but rather nit-picking about published reviews. The comment below prompted me to look up some investor news about Tesla, and I found a Motley Fool blog post http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/this-weeks-5-dumbest-stock-moves-tesla-motors-inc-tsla-65147/ http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/this-weeks-5-dumbest-stock... commenting on the results of Musk's initial response to the New York Times review: "Tesla had to defend itself on this, but drawing more attention to the incident in a way that forces Tesla drivers to be patient through recharging stations, lighter on the accelerator, and focused on the most direct path from one destination to another doesn't sound like potent marketing material for a car that costs at least $60,000."

revelation 14y ago
Well, he can't because Tesla (TSLA) is a public company and releases its Q4 report tomorrow on the 20th. He can't possibly "leak" detailed numbers on market share, sales growth etc. That said, the Verges review is worth reading (and watching) for the video editing alone.

supercanuck 14y ago

Judging by this thread, is appears Elon Musk is losing his innocence.

querulous 14y ago

The two biggest failings of the Tesla S highlighted by Broder still remain unaddressed. The overnight discharge of the battery and the questionable instruction by Tesla representatives are still question marks that Elon Musk has done nothing to refute.

alan_cx 14y ago

At this point my head drops in t my hands and I sigh. Basically, with out having to say anything it can look like the NYT did concede. Just superficially, but enough. However, now we have yet another response form Tesla, people, like the people here, will go over it work by word to see if it all squares up now. And of course it doesn't. So what's next, another response from NYT? If it were me, I'd have stopped this right after the NYT article. Both sides could declare some sort of victory and lessons learned, and move on. Now, of course, Tesla open up again fro more scrutiny, and as people here have pointed out in detail, Tesla don't stand up. All this will do is entrench opinion and further increase the notion that Musk is a man who makes false claims and freaks out when called out. That is how the motor world sees him. Which to my mind is mad because Musk will need the support of these guys to sell units. Perhaps Musk feels he can ignore the motor industry culture entirely and create a whole new one for electric. If that's the idea, then OK, fine. But if so, he has a right battle on his hands, and I suggest he doesn't need it when IMHO what he needs to do is continue to develop and perfect his product. But then, why keep trying to court the motor industry? Maybe that is the way to go. Completely ignore the current motor culture, and create a whole new culture for electric vehicles. I mean, the railway industry doesn't court the motor industry. Or vice versa. Car manufacturers dont try to impress train manufacturers. They are totally separate. So, separate out the electric car culture. Just a wild thought!!!

DannoHung 14y ago

Things to take note if you ever decide to do business with Musk's companies as a customer: He will twist every word and fact possible if something doesn't go right publicly.

b1daly 14y ago

While it does seem Musk might actually feel personally aggrieved, I see the situation as follows: In spite of a lot of progress on making a fully electric car, the Tesla S has obvious shortcomings as a replacement for an ICE car. Mainly, it requires constant vigilance to maintain the battery, and the battery is subject to unpredictable behavior with regards to predicted range and maintaining a charge, which are worsened by cold. These weaknesses were illustrated by the original NYT article, and no amount of spin, or "better" reporting can change this. Musk knows that once a meme gets started along the lines of ""Tesla is the car that leaves you stranded unpredictably and doesn't work in cold climate" gets started, it is game over for reaching a mass market. So the story is a potential existential threat to the company, requiring maximum response. Losing credibility with some of the HN crowd is not such a threat, the market they represent is tiny. He mainly needed to bring up doubts about the story enough to prevent it from becoming a defining story on the S. It might not have been pretty, but in this I would say he succeeded.

recoiledsnake 14y ago

Musk's response has no answers to the following key questions 1) Was Broder advised to brake frequently to use regenerative braking? (This kills the battery). 2) How much displayed/real charge does the car lose overnight in cold weather? 3) Was Broder advised that heating the cabin will increased the displayed range? 4) When Musk said the battery never ran out of charge what did he mean? That was meant to cast doubt on Broder implying he called the towing company needlessly, but a Tesla rep spent a long time with the towing truck driver on the phone and couldn't get it to release the parking brake. Why the technical BS nitpicking stating the battery still had charge if it was totally useless? Broder gave us the times and names of support reps and all we get is this extreme piece of worthless spin? The fact that he's not answering the above questions leads me to believe that Broder was given some really bad advice by incompetent reps and Musk is trying to shift the blame completely onto Broder. Broder should've recorded the support phone calls without telling Tesla, just like they turned on logging on the car he was driving.

pacala 14y ago
I can only hope that from now on reviewers of Mr. Musk cars will turn their mobile phones in data recording stations and even the field. Broder was taken by surprise; there is little precedent for the kind of irrelevant spin he was the subject of.
uvdiv 14y ago
Add to that 5) What were the cruise control setpoints? This data must certainly have been logged, and Musk hasn't released it. Musk accused Broder of lying about using cruise control. So why not back this up with direct evidence, why only release speedometer logs? My inference is that these logs must support Broder's account very strongly.
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MarkMc 14y ago

Musk is showing bad judgement by mis-characterising the change in attitude of The New York Times. Broder showed poor judgement by leaving a charging station with an estimated range of half the distance he wanted to travel. Margaret Sullivan is the one person who seems to have good judgement in this whole affair.

dylangs1030 14y ago

I'm not going to say he's wrong, but Musk's response is a little condescending. Two parties are fighting over public image, I get that. It didn't have to escalate to this point, but it did. And now, when Musk has essentially emerged victorious, he makes a further blog post to grind his heel into Broder while he's down? That's not honorable.

scragg 14y ago

Anyone on HN own or reserved a Model S? I'm thinking of reserving the cheaper configs.

codex 14y ago

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." -- Hamlet, Act III, scene II

SeanLuke 14y ago

I think that Tesla has a legitimate complaint with the NYT for the article. But the very first sentence of this post is a bald falsehood: > Yesterday, The New York Times reversed its opinion on the review of our Model S and no longer believes that it was an accurate account of what happened. The public editor is not the New York Times' opinion. She is the newspaper's ombudsman. Her opinions are entirely her own and are independent of the newspaper, and indeed often are at odds with the newspaper's policy or opinion. This is not just spin, it's a petty and unnecessary lie. Musk has blown a lot of credibility with me. Edit. This post comes at a curious time: Tesla's potentially make-or-break quarterly earnings report is due the next day.

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nicpottier 14y ago

"Entirely of their own volition, several customers spent the past holiday weekend recreating the Broder test drive route and showing that it can be done easily using the Tesla Supercharger network on the East Coast. " Musk loses some points here by not being exactly forthcoming about the details of the 'community drive' that took place, which actually required an over the air update to complete due to one of the cars not taking a full charge: Source: http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/18/tesla-model-s-road-trip-drivers-have-no-problem-video/ http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/18/tesla-model-s-road-trip... He should have just left that bit out, now it calls the rest into question.

nnq 14y ago

Are there really such things as honest car reviews?! ...I guess EM just made a really bad judgement: he pushed his "candy money" too late towards NYT, or he somehow managed to push it to the wring person! (this really bodes bad on the public image of his business skills, so this could make some over-cautious people reconsider investing in his businesses - though I'd still place my bet on him ;) )

eps 14y ago

If nothing else, the media will now think twice before giving an unfavorable review to Tesla cars. On the other hand, the paid-for crtique and general crusade against electrical vehicles will now probably shift to less notable outlets, but on a larger scale. Think - dozens blog posts detailing bad ownership experiences, and not with company loaners that log every bleep, but with actually bought cars. It'd be interesting to see how Tesle is going to handle this... because frankly I don't think they can.

flyinRyan 14y ago
>If nothing else, the media will now think twice before giving an unfavorable review to Tesla cars. You think so? I would think the opposite. Tesla has no power but to throw a fit and act foolish. If anything, I would expect future reviews to approach the review negatively and defensively.

bambax 14y ago

> The bottom line is that the Model S combined with Supercharging works well for a long road trip, even in a cold, snowy winter. No. The bottom line is you can't drive the Model S in winter even if you have the time or inclination to call a dedicated Tesla support line a total of twelve times during a two-day trip. The bottom line is Tesla's advice is worthless. The bottom line is you should plug the car in every instant it's not running (which is exactly what the user manual says). - - - I used to be a heavy smoker. What made me stop is, everywhere I went, the only thing I could think about was "where can I get cigarettes if I run out?" I would not like to drive a car that would put me in the same state of mind.