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There are lots of good reasons that are used to paper over the abuse cases. Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature when they enable voice comman

by ygjb 4d ago

There are lots of good reasons that are used to paper over the abuse cases. Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature when they enable voice commands for the user, and allow them to be used as voice assistants. They also enable tvs with a camera and microphone to be used as video calling or audio calling interfaces. Used well we get star Trek view screens, used poorly we get little brother monitoring. For those interested, it turns the tv into an interactive terminal for voice and camera powered video games, which are becoming more popular. Unfortunately advertising and tracking incentives drive the abuse cases to the top and will crush the positive use cases :(

tmpz22 4d ago
> Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature Made nearly moot by the presence of microphones in most (all?) modern remotes. I say nearly moot because its worth noting the ability to operate a physical remote may itself be prohibitive to some. So in effect, there are a multitude microphones in a modern LG environment.
- ygjb 4d ago
  a tv may be the only shared device in low income homes.
GreenVulpine 4d ago
There's no practical reason for most people. Spying is the primary function. Edge cases like accessibility or conferencing can be easily enabled with an add on USB mic. You'd need a USB webcam with mic for conferencing anyway.
- qlte 4d ago
  People use voice commands on TV remotes all the time if they're using streaming apps. At this point it's the default way to interact with the UI for many people. Typing out the show you're searching for with an awkward onscreen keyboard is a huge pain compared to just clicking a button and speaking. HN users are very much in a bubble if it's surprising to learn consumers expect voice control functionality on a new TV.
  - hilbert42 4d ago
    "HN users are very much in a bubble if it's surprising if it's learn consumers expect voice control functionality on a new TV." Perhaps a few are unaware but most know. As I said in my post, some (like me) only want traditional FTA — and with it comes anonymity by default. Smart TVs undermine and subvert the virtues of FDA services. It should be mandated that it's possible for modern smart TVs to switch to FTA-only mode if viewers so desire. Similarly, regulation should ensure that dumb TVs always be available for those who want them.
  - shakna 4d ago
    Whilst most around me do expect voice control to exist... Most expect it not to function. "Hey Siri/Google" was always more of an exercise in frustration than success. It seems the Australian accent still befuddles most STT with about 1/8 words confused (said as someone who uses STT to use their computer at all). It would not shock me, if outside of North America and Great Britain, these systems are as effective as the original autocorrect algo.
- ygjb 4d ago
  Accessibility is not an edge case. Every single human being who lives long enough will experience some form of accessibity challenge, either for themselves or for others around them. You can dismiss the lives experience of most humans over the history of humanity, but it won't win you any arguments.
seemaze 4d ago
Are there any useful resources for finding devices that don't have surveillance apparatus built in? I'm still not purchasing a television. The last thing I need is more screen time in my life.
- wongarsu 4d ago
  You'd be looking for what's now called a "dumb tv". But those are getting rare, because TVs that can't sell your watch data have to be more expensive to make up for that, and that doesn't sell. Commercial screens are an option, as are computer monitors. Or getting a smart tv and never connecting it to the internet. So far nobody has started shipping TVs with a mobile connection to exfiltrate data, as far as we know. Unlike cars.
  - ygjb 4d ago
    There are plans to build these networks at various stages. Putatively to enable connectivity, but in practice the tech creates a device to device mesh network that enables side channel communication over a secure mechanism that is not necessarily subject to use control.
  - trinsic2 4d ago
    I think it would be less time consuming to build one yourself.
    - qlte 4d ago
      Less time consuming than just ... not connecting a new TV to WiFi? It's pretty straightforward to get dumb behavior out of a modern smart TV as long as you're satisfied with the factory installed firmware version.
      - hilbert42 4d ago
        "…as long as you're satisfied with the factory installed firmware version." Why wouldn't one be? Not that long ago 'dumb' TVs never even had firmware (and that was the situation throughout most of television history). Allowing a manufacturer to update TV firmware online is dangerous and foolhardy. (Same reasons why I never let any of my printers go anywhere near the internet—any driver software is always blocked by a firewall.)
hilbert42 4d ago
Like I do with laptops, just snip wires (or pull out header/connector) to microphone and camera. Problem partly solved. Fully solve it by disconnecting network cable/Wi-Fi so there's no internet. For me a TV set only receives FTA signals and has connectors for local media/AV input. It ceases to be a TV set when it starts doing what my PCs and laptops do. (Anonymity is the reason why FTA broadcasting is still so very important, by design it's only one-way — broadcaster to listener/viewer. Unfortunately smart TVs and the internet subvert anonymity by design.)

by ygjb 4d ago

tmpz22 4d ago

> Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature Made nearly moot by the presence of microphones in most (all?) modern remotes. I say nearly moot because its worth noting the ability to operate a physical remote may itself be prohibitive to some. So in effect, there are a multitude microphones in a modern LG environment.

ygjb 4d ago
a tv may be the only shared device in low income homes.

GreenVulpine 4d ago

There's no practical reason for most people. Spying is the primary function. Edge cases like accessibility or conferencing can be easily enabled with an add on USB mic. You'd need a USB webcam with mic for conferencing anyway.

qlte 4d ago
People use voice commands on TV remotes all the time if they're using streaming apps. At this point it's the default way to interact with the UI for many people. Typing out the show you're searching for with an awkward onscreen keyboard is a huge pain compared to just clicking a button and speaking. HN users are very much in a bubble if it's surprising to learn consumers expect voice control functionality on a new TV.
- hilbert42 4d ago
  "HN users are very much in a bubble if it's surprising if it's learn consumers expect voice control functionality on a new TV." Perhaps a few are unaware but most know. As I said in my post, some (like me) only want traditional FTA — and with it comes anonymity by default. Smart TVs undermine and subvert the virtues of FDA services. It should be mandated that it's possible for modern smart TVs to switch to FTA-only mode if viewers so desire. Similarly, regulation should ensure that dumb TVs always be available for those who want them.
- shakna 4d ago
  Whilst most around me do expect voice control to exist... Most expect it not to function. "Hey Siri/Google" was always more of an exercise in frustration than success. It seems the Australian accent still befuddles most STT with about 1/8 words confused (said as someone who uses STT to use their computer at all). It would not shock me, if outside of North America and Great Britain, these systems are as effective as the original autocorrect algo.
ygjb 4d ago
Accessibility is not an edge case. Every single human being who lives long enough will experience some form of accessibity challenge, either for themselves or for others around them. You can dismiss the lives experience of most humans over the history of humanity, but it won't win you any arguments.

seemaze 4d ago

Are there any useful resources for finding devices that don't have surveillance apparatus built in? I'm still not purchasing a television. The last thing I need is more screen time in my life.

wongarsu 4d ago
You'd be looking for what's now called a "dumb tv". But those are getting rare, because TVs that can't sell your watch data have to be more expensive to make up for that, and that doesn't sell. Commercial screens are an option, as are computer monitors. Or getting a smart tv and never connecting it to the internet. So far nobody has started shipping TVs with a mobile connection to exfiltrate data, as far as we know. Unlike cars.
- ygjb 4d ago
  There are plans to build these networks at various stages. Putatively to enable connectivity, but in practice the tech creates a device to device mesh network that enables side channel communication over a secure mechanism that is not necessarily subject to use control.
- trinsic2 4d ago
  I think it would be less time consuming to build one yourself.
  - qlte 4d ago
    Less time consuming than just ... not connecting a new TV to WiFi? It's pretty straightforward to get dumb behavior out of a modern smart TV as long as you're satisfied with the factory installed firmware version.
    - hilbert42 4d ago
      "…as long as you're satisfied with the factory installed firmware version." Why wouldn't one be? Not that long ago 'dumb' TVs never even had firmware (and that was the situation throughout most of television history). Allowing a manufacturer to update TV firmware online is dangerous and foolhardy. (Same reasons why I never let any of my printers go anywhere near the internet—any driver software is always blocked by a firewall.)

hilbert42 4d ago

Like I do with laptops, just snip wires (or pull out header/connector) to microphone and camera. Problem partly solved. Fully solve it by disconnecting network cable/Wi-Fi so there's no internet. For me a TV set only receives FTA signals and has connectors for local media/AV input. It ceases to be a TV set when it starts doing what my PCs and laptops do. (Anonymity is the reason why FTA broadcasting is still so very important, by design it's only one-way — broadcaster to listener/viewer. Unfortunately smart TVs and the internet subvert anonymity by design.)