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> and other countries will follow You sound gleeful about the idea of nuclear proliferation. It's unfortunate that so many have stopped caring about the instit

> and other countries will follow You sound gleeful about the idea of nuclear proliferation. It's unfortunate that so many have stopped caring about the institutions and liberal world order we created. Oh well. If/once Iran gets one we'll give one to Saudi Arabia at least and make sure Israel's program is well supported. Then we can make sure Germany has them and Poland too if they want them. Korea and Japan will also get the green light. Anyone who opposes China/Russia will can get access to then and we can add a dozen or so countries to the nuclear armed states list. Why not?

m4rtink 6d ago
Most of the countrues you name would be totally insane if they are not already running clendestine nuclear wepons programs, especially South Korea & Japan. They are not going to wait for uncertain handouts in the future.
vjvjvjvjghv 5d ago
I am not gleeful at all about nuclear proliferation. Quite the opposite. It looks to me like the world order that has kept the western hemisphere peaceful and prosperous over the last 70 years is falling apart. And if AI and robotics take off, it's possible our capitalist model will also fall apart. Re: nuclear weapons. If the US gives up the role of protecting other friendly nations and NATO isn't viewed as reliable anymore, it makes sense to develop nuclear weapons. As a German I am starting to wonder if we should develop our own just in case Putin gets some ideas. And I am sure Japan and South Korea are having similar thoughts.
- ericmay 5d ago
  > I am not gleeful at all about nuclear proliferation. Quite the opposite. It looks to me like the world order that has kept the western hemisphere peaceful and prosperous over the last 70 years is falling apart. And if AI and robotics take off, it's possible our capitalist model will also fall apart. Part of that preservation means a safe and stable Middle East and more countries not acquiring nuclear weapons. You simply cannot “negotiate” with Iran here. It’s no different than when Europeans (rightfully in my view) say there’s no negotiating with Putin and then go and complain about the US sending delegates to Russia trying to figure something out no matter how half-brained the Trump administration might be.
  - defrost 5d ago
    > You simply cannot “negotiate” with Iran here. Likely not any more, not since Trump tore up US participation in the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). One bad faith act destroyed concerted effort by multiple countries that would have seen greater Iranian integration into the world and the falling off of internal extreme influence. Negotiation demonstrably worked, in the past, trust was destroyed .. who did that?
    - ericmay 5d ago
      You're focusing on the JCPOA and what is clouding your judgement here is you are forgetting that even with the JCPOA Iran was loading up on ballistic missiles and drones, arming militias in Syria, Yemen, Palestine, Iraq, and Lebanon, and once Russia invaded Ukraine they immediately started working with the Russians to evade sanctions and supplied them with military hardware to prosecute their war. Are those the actions of a country that is really following the JCPOA? This is what a "negotiation" got us. The fact that Trump tore up the JCPOA isn't relevant because they shouldn't need to have an agreement to not build nuclear weapons in the first place! Is Vietnam or Brazil funding militias and loading up on military hardware and threatening to build a nuclear weapon unless they get some sort of special agreement to not do it? It wasn't "one bad faith act" there never needed to be an act in the first place and you're ignoring all of Iran's actions that themselves were bad faith!
      - defrost 4d ago
        > even with the JCPOA Iran was doing things that weren't covered by the JCPOA. So, this doesn't negate the demonstrable point that negotiation with Iran actually works .. at least until one party breaks the agreement. > Are those the actions of a country that is really following the JCPOA? How many parties to JCPOA were also manufacturing and supplying arms? Certainly China, Russia, the U.K., and the U.S were. Were Germany and France also doing the same? > all of Iran's actions that themselves were bad faith! Yeah .. nah. (See above).

m4rtink 6d ago

Most of the countrues you name would be totally insane if they are not already running clendestine nuclear wepons programs, especially South Korea & Japan. They are not going to wait for uncertain handouts in the future.

vjvjvjvjghv 5d ago

I am not gleeful at all about nuclear proliferation. Quite the opposite. It looks to me like the world order that has kept the western hemisphere peaceful and prosperous over the last 70 years is falling apart. And if AI and robotics take off, it's possible our capitalist model will also fall apart. Re: nuclear weapons. If the US gives up the role of protecting other friendly nations and NATO isn't viewed as reliable anymore, it makes sense to develop nuclear weapons. As a German I am starting to wonder if we should develop our own just in case Putin gets some ideas. And I am sure Japan and South Korea are having similar thoughts.

ericmay 5d ago
> I am not gleeful at all about nuclear proliferation. Quite the opposite. It looks to me like the world order that has kept the western hemisphere peaceful and prosperous over the last 70 years is falling apart. And if AI and robotics take off, it's possible our capitalist model will also fall apart. Part of that preservation means a safe and stable Middle East and more countries not acquiring nuclear weapons. You simply cannot “negotiate” with Iran here. It’s no different than when Europeans (rightfully in my view) say there’s no negotiating with Putin and then go and complain about the US sending delegates to Russia trying to figure something out no matter how half-brained the Trump administration might be.
- defrost 5d ago
  > You simply cannot “negotiate” with Iran here. Likely not any more, not since Trump tore up US participation in the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). One bad faith act destroyed concerted effort by multiple countries that would have seen greater Iranian integration into the world and the falling off of internal extreme influence. Negotiation demonstrably worked, in the past, trust was destroyed .. who did that?
  - ericmay 5d ago
    You're focusing on the JCPOA and what is clouding your judgement here is you are forgetting that even with the JCPOA Iran was loading up on ballistic missiles and drones, arming militias in Syria, Yemen, Palestine, Iraq, and Lebanon, and once Russia invaded Ukraine they immediately started working with the Russians to evade sanctions and supplied them with military hardware to prosecute their war. Are those the actions of a country that is really following the JCPOA? This is what a "negotiation" got us. The fact that Trump tore up the JCPOA isn't relevant because they shouldn't need to have an agreement to not build nuclear weapons in the first place! Is Vietnam or Brazil funding militias and loading up on military hardware and threatening to build a nuclear weapon unless they get some sort of special agreement to not do it? It wasn't "one bad faith act" there never needed to be an act in the first place and you're ignoring all of Iran's actions that themselves were bad faith!
    - defrost 4d ago
      > even with the JCPOA Iran was doing things that weren't covered by the JCPOA. So, this doesn't negate the demonstrable point that negotiation with Iran actually works .. at least until one party breaks the agreement. > Are those the actions of a country that is really following the JCPOA? How many parties to JCPOA were also manufacturing and supplying arms? Certainly China, Russia, the U.K., and the U.S were. Were Germany and France also doing the same? > all of Iran's actions that themselves were bad faith! Yeah .. nah. (See above).