5 ms·

I gloss over it because it's an argument that makes no sense to me. Copyright exists to encourage progress in the arts and sciences. Not to enrich artists or s

I gloss over it because it's an argument that makes no sense to me. Copyright exists to encourage progress in the arts and sciences. Not to enrich artists or scientists. Ai is progress. Further, the works it creates are fully transformative. It isn't just spitting out Harry Potter verbatim, it's making new things from it. To me, this argument is like staying that if you read Winnie The Pooh as a child then Milne owns your artistic output for life, because one of your many influences might have been his work. It just seems obvious at face value.

pydry 5d ago
>Copyright exists to encourage progress in the arts and sciences. Not to enrich artists or scientists. Is impoverishing them supposed to encourage progress in the arts and sciences? Whatever it started out as (and I have my doubts it was ever a tool to help artists), it's now primarily a tool corporations use to milk creativity for profit and squash it where it might interfere with that profit.
- mapontosevenths 5d ago
  > Is impoverishing them supposed to encourage progress in the arts and sciences? No, but that needs new laws. Not an abuse of the old ones justified under the thinnest of pretenses. I don't think that folks stop to consider what bending copyright law into these weird shapes to meet their ends will do to other aspects of copyright. For example, sampling in music. How is that different from AI generated music? If anything AI uses LESS of any individual song. You can't just say "no derivative works." That would fully halt progress on many fronts.
  - czpl 5d ago
    If a song was made purely of samples with no original input I'd argue it's in the same category. Maybe AI uses less of any individual song, but does AI make something actually original and transformative or is it just bits and pieces of all the things it learnt on (in simplified terms)? I think that's where the discussion lies.
    - mapontosevenths 5d ago
      Entirely new works are often created entirely from samples, and can be amazing. See "Frontier Psychiatrist" by The Avalanches for one example done entirely by humans. There are many others.
      - czpl 5d ago
        Amazing or not, that is not the discussion. LLM output can look amazing as well but that's not what I'm arguing about. Also with LLM's we'll reach a point when everything is made out of samples (metaphorically speaking), where do we fit original content then, or who will make it if it means it's going to be consumed by data centers immediately.
        mapontosevenths 5d ago
        > Also with LLM's we'll reach a point when everything is made out of samples We reached that point with humans long ago. There's nothing new under the sun. Only remixes of dead peoples greatest hits. The pentatonic scale, for example, was not invented by the people who use it. Science and art would have to start over from scratch if you expect things to all be genuinely new from first principles. > who will make it if it means it's going to be consumed by data centers immediately People who enjoy making it.
        czpl 5d ago
        people who enjoy making it won't be able to afford to do it, alternatively only rich people will have means to do so. So I guess thats progress in some eyes
        mapontosevenths 5d ago
        > people who enjoy making it won't be able to afford to do it The demand for paintings did not disappear when photography was invented. Though many Luddites claimed it would. There were even those who wanted cameras outlawed to protect the artists livelihoods. Do you think we should have listened to those people? Is this situation different from that one?
  - deleted 5d ago
    [deleted]
  - NateEag 5d ago
    Sampling in music is long settled in the US - it is a copyright violation if not licensed, with the rare exception being cases where the sample is fair use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(music)#Legal_and_ethical_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(music)#Legal_and_eth...
kg 5d ago
The frequency with which AI boosters leap to "clearly once you've read a book the author owns everything that comes out of your brain" still shocks me a little bit. It's obviously not the same as somebody torrenting books2 or libgen or whatever and training on it for profit.
- mapontosevenths 5d ago
  I see no argument here. Just a note that it seems to be obvious to you. It must not be as obvious to me, or millions of others or we wouldn't be on the opposite side of it.
czpl 5d ago
How is it progress if it stops people from sharing. It just reduces everything to the lowest common denominator. Or how is it progress if the data centers just eat up all the components skyrocketing the prices for regular people.
kazinator 5d ago
You might be confusing patents and copyright. Copyright squarely exists so that authors of can get paid. Patents exist so that the secrets behind inventions are revealed in exchange for a limited time protection, promoting collaboration and progress.
- edanm 5d ago
  Quoting the US constitution: "The Congress shall have Power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." It's about promoting science and art, not "paying authors". Paying authors is of course the mechanism by which art is promoted.
  - kazinator 5d ago
    That clause is the basis for both copyright and patents. Note that not all Arts are "useful" and not all Arts are "Writings". Most art is not intended to be an open-ended product to be further collaborated upon and extended in order to drive progress. Protections are purely so that the creators can get paid in some shape. There is still art if they don't get paid. Copyright somewhat stifles that activity in art which consists of imitation; imitate too closely and you invite accusations of infringement. A work of art being copyrighted is not what motivates and encourages activity revolving around copying that work's style. That's what it would mean for the work to promote Art as such: the work gets studied and it style becomes part of the artistic vocabulary. This will happen copyright or not; the only difference is the conditions for compensation.
    - mapontosevenths 5d ago
      > Protections are purely so that the creators can get paid in some shape. That's not what the founding fathers said, and it's not what they wanted. Madison thought that the two things were really the same saying: "The utility of this power will scarcely be questioned. The copyright of authors has been solemnly adjudged, in Great Britain, to be a right of common law. The right to useful inventions seems with equal reason to belong to the inventors. The public good fully coincides in both cases with the claims of individuals. The States cannot separately make effectual provision for either of the cases..." — Federalist No. 43 (1788) Whereas Jefferson, who not only helped draft the consititution, but was the first patent examiner, was deeply suspicious of them and wanted a restriction on length directly spelled out at length in the constitution itself. "I like it [the Constitution], as far as it goes; but I should have been for going further. For instance, the following alterations and additions would have pleased me... Article 9. Monopolies may be allowed to persons for their own productions in literature, and their own inventions in the arts, for a term not exceeding — years, but for no longer term, and for no other purpose." — Letter to James Madison (August 1789) They all agreed that the purpose was progress for everyone, not one mans enrichment. They disagreed a bit about how best to accomplish that.
ruraljuror 5d ago
That it’s illegal for employees to use copyrighted work that they dont have permission to use to build a product seems much more obvious at face value than comparing an llm to a human artist.

pydry 5d ago

>Copyright exists to encourage progress in the arts and sciences. Not to enrich artists or scientists. Is impoverishing them supposed to encourage progress in the arts and sciences? Whatever it started out as (and I have my doubts it was ever a tool to help artists), it's now primarily a tool corporations use to milk creativity for profit and squash it where it might interfere with that profit.

mapontosevenths 5d ago
> Is impoverishing them supposed to encourage progress in the arts and sciences? No, but that needs new laws. Not an abuse of the old ones justified under the thinnest of pretenses. I don't think that folks stop to consider what bending copyright law into these weird shapes to meet their ends will do to other aspects of copyright. For example, sampling in music. How is that different from AI generated music? If anything AI uses LESS of any individual song. You can't just say "no derivative works." That would fully halt progress on many fronts.
- czpl 5d ago
  If a song was made purely of samples with no original input I'd argue it's in the same category. Maybe AI uses less of any individual song, but does AI make something actually original and transformative or is it just bits and pieces of all the things it learnt on (in simplified terms)? I think that's where the discussion lies.
  - mapontosevenths 5d ago
    Entirely new works are often created entirely from samples, and can be amazing. See "Frontier Psychiatrist" by The Avalanches for one example done entirely by humans. There are many others.
    - czpl 5d ago
      Amazing or not, that is not the discussion. LLM output can look amazing as well but that's not what I'm arguing about. Also with LLM's we'll reach a point when everything is made out of samples (metaphorically speaking), where do we fit original content then, or who will make it if it means it's going to be consumed by data centers immediately.
      - mapontosevenths 5d ago
        > Also with LLM's we'll reach a point when everything is made out of samples We reached that point with humans long ago. There's nothing new under the sun. Only remixes of dead peoples greatest hits. The pentatonic scale, for example, was not invented by the people who use it. Science and art would have to start over from scratch if you expect things to all be genuinely new from first principles. > who will make it if it means it's going to be consumed by data centers immediately People who enjoy making it.
        czpl 5d ago
        people who enjoy making it won't be able to afford to do it, alternatively only rich people will have means to do so. So I guess thats progress in some eyes
        mapontosevenths 5d ago
        > people who enjoy making it won't be able to afford to do it The demand for paintings did not disappear when photography was invented. Though many Luddites claimed it would. There were even those who wanted cameras outlawed to protect the artists livelihoods. Do you think we should have listened to those people? Is this situation different from that one?
- deleted 5d ago
  [deleted]
- NateEag 5d ago
  Sampling in music is long settled in the US - it is a copyright violation if not licensed, with the rare exception being cases where the sample is fair use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(music)#Legal_and_ethical_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(music)#Legal_and_eth...

kg 5d ago

The frequency with which AI boosters leap to "clearly once you've read a book the author owns everything that comes out of your brain" still shocks me a little bit. It's obviously not the same as somebody torrenting books2 or libgen or whatever and training on it for profit.

mapontosevenths 5d ago
I see no argument here. Just a note that it seems to be obvious to you. It must not be as obvious to me, or millions of others or we wouldn't be on the opposite side of it.

czpl 5d ago

How is it progress if it stops people from sharing. It just reduces everything to the lowest common denominator. Or how is it progress if the data centers just eat up all the components skyrocketing the prices for regular people.

kazinator 5d ago

You might be confusing patents and copyright. Copyright squarely exists so that authors of can get paid. Patents exist so that the secrets behind inventions are revealed in exchange for a limited time protection, promoting collaboration and progress.

edanm 5d ago
Quoting the US constitution: "The Congress shall have Power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." It's about promoting science and art, not "paying authors". Paying authors is of course the mechanism by which art is promoted.
- kazinator 5d ago
  That clause is the basis for both copyright and patents. Note that not all Arts are "useful" and not all Arts are "Writings". Most art is not intended to be an open-ended product to be further collaborated upon and extended in order to drive progress. Protections are purely so that the creators can get paid in some shape. There is still art if they don't get paid. Copyright somewhat stifles that activity in art which consists of imitation; imitate too closely and you invite accusations of infringement. A work of art being copyrighted is not what motivates and encourages activity revolving around copying that work's style. That's what it would mean for the work to promote Art as such: the work gets studied and it style becomes part of the artistic vocabulary. This will happen copyright or not; the only difference is the conditions for compensation.
  - mapontosevenths 5d ago
    > Protections are purely so that the creators can get paid in some shape. That's not what the founding fathers said, and it's not what they wanted. Madison thought that the two things were really the same saying: "The utility of this power will scarcely be questioned. The copyright of authors has been solemnly adjudged, in Great Britain, to be a right of common law. The right to useful inventions seems with equal reason to belong to the inventors. The public good fully coincides in both cases with the claims of individuals. The States cannot separately make effectual provision for either of the cases..." — Federalist No. 43 (1788) Whereas Jefferson, who not only helped draft the consititution, but was the first patent examiner, was deeply suspicious of them and wanted a restriction on length directly spelled out at length in the constitution itself. "I like it [the Constitution], as far as it goes; but I should have been for going further. For instance, the following alterations and additions would have pleased me... Article 9. Monopolies may be allowed to persons for their own productions in literature, and their own inventions in the arts, for a term not exceeding — years, but for no longer term, and for no other purpose." — Letter to James Madison (August 1789) They all agreed that the purpose was progress for everyone, not one mans enrichment. They disagreed a bit about how best to accomplish that.

ruraljuror 5d ago

That it’s illegal for employees to use copyrighted work that they dont have permission to use to build a product seems much more obvious at face value than comparing an llm to a human artist.