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Pilot gets more veto power than the crane guy who gets more veto power than the residential concrete crew but they all still get talked to if they can't get the

Pilot gets more veto power than the crane guy who gets more veto power than the residential concrete crew but they all still get talked to if they can't get their jobs done. I didn't say the same. I said the pressure was probably there too. But you can construe it as the former because that's a way easier thing to argue with.

dghlsakjg 6d ago
Fair enough. I assume that since the NTSB database makes every single incident investigation public you can point to at least one instance where an ATP was pressured into avoiding a go around?
- twisteriffic 6d ago
  I mean... The problem is common enough that there are industry specific terms to describe it. Go search that database for "commercial pressure" and I'm certain you'll find what your sealioning self is demanding from everyone else.
  - dghlsakjg 6d ago
    0 results for the search term “commercial pressure” within full narratives or synopsis on Ntsb.gov. https://www.ntsb.gov/Pages/ResultsV2.aspx?queryId=dc2a25cf-bc1e-4a27-bb18-56ee85d15434 https://www.ntsb.gov/Pages/ResultsV2.aspx?queryId=dc2a25cf-b... Can you point me to one of the specific incidents you are citing since both the new search and the old search seem to be broken for that specific term? Edit: just to be clear: I’m not saying that companies don’t pressure transportation workers into bad decisions. My original supposition is that I have never heard of, nor would it make any sense, for a US airline to have a policy of avoiding go arounds. “Land rhe plane on the first try, or else…” is an exceptionally stupid policy.
- cucumber3732842 6d ago
  Specifically avoid a go around? IDK. Commit to an action that ultimately caused a crash because they wanted to achieve ancillary goals (e.g. not be late)? Tons. They call this "get-there-itis" (makes me feel so dirty trotting out buzzwords like that).
wbl 6d ago
There is one thing an airline never wants to have happen and it is a fatal accident. Everything else is secondary. Having one caused by corporate policy would lead to mass exodus of passengers.
- SoftTalker 6d ago
  21Air isn't a passenger airline though, it's cargo. It's conceivable that they have lower standards, hire less experienced pilots, and just don't emphasize safety culture in the same way that passenger airlines do.
  - mschuster91 6d ago
    > It's conceivable that they have lower standards, hire less experienced pilots, and just don't emphasize safety culture in the same way that passenger airlines do. In German railways there is a saying "Fracht motzt nicht, Fracht kotzt nicht" - freight neither complains nor vomits. I would not be surprised at all to find this kind of attitude in air freight transportation too.

dghlsakjg 6d ago

Fair enough. I assume that since the NTSB database makes every single incident investigation public you can point to at least one instance where an ATP was pressured into avoiding a go around?

twisteriffic 6d ago
I mean... The problem is common enough that there are industry specific terms to describe it. Go search that database for "commercial pressure" and I'm certain you'll find what your sealioning self is demanding from everyone else.
- dghlsakjg 6d ago
  0 results for the search term “commercial pressure” within full narratives or synopsis on Ntsb.gov. https://www.ntsb.gov/Pages/ResultsV2.aspx?queryId=dc2a25cf-bc1e-4a27-bb18-56ee85d15434 https://www.ntsb.gov/Pages/ResultsV2.aspx?queryId=dc2a25cf-b... Can you point me to one of the specific incidents you are citing since both the new search and the old search seem to be broken for that specific term? Edit: just to be clear: I’m not saying that companies don’t pressure transportation workers into bad decisions. My original supposition is that I have never heard of, nor would it make any sense, for a US airline to have a policy of avoiding go arounds. “Land rhe plane on the first try, or else…” is an exceptionally stupid policy.
cucumber3732842 6d ago
Specifically avoid a go around? IDK. Commit to an action that ultimately caused a crash because they wanted to achieve ancillary goals (e.g. not be late)? Tons. They call this "get-there-itis" (makes me feel so dirty trotting out buzzwords like that).

wbl 6d ago

There is one thing an airline never wants to have happen and it is a fatal accident. Everything else is secondary. Having one caused by corporate policy would lead to mass exodus of passengers.

SoftTalker 6d ago
21Air isn't a passenger airline though, it's cargo. It's conceivable that they have lower standards, hire less experienced pilots, and just don't emphasize safety culture in the same way that passenger airlines do.
- mschuster91 6d ago
  > It's conceivable that they have lower standards, hire less experienced pilots, and just don't emphasize safety culture in the same way that passenger airlines do. In German railways there is a saying "Fracht motzt nicht, Fracht kotzt nicht" - freight neither complains nor vomits. I would not be surprised at all to find this kind of attitude in air freight transportation too.