6 ms·

> The big difference is that with a debit card, it's your money that is hit by fraud. I kind of disagree. I think what's happened is the bank would prefer you

> The big difference is that with a debit card, it's your money that is hit by fraud. I kind of disagree. I think what's happened is the bank would prefer you to believe that. Imagine I kept my money at the bank, and deposited $10000 with the teller. Immediately afterward a robber follows in and steals that $10000 from the teller. Does the bank say "oh no Mr. TheChao! A robber stole your $10000!". I mean, no? The bank got robbed. Just because the bank's digital security is more tied one-to-one to dollars and its easier for a robber to steal from "my till" doesn't mean it was me who was robbed. It's the bank's job to stop that.

Hardwired8976 7d ago
Eh when you deposit money with a teller, it gets added to your account, which is in physical terms probably just a big storage and a database who has how much. But in the case of debit card, the card ties the money to your account. It is actually that. It's as if someone would steal from a personal safe at the bank.
- lxgr 7d ago
  Except that you have strong statutory rights and commercial agreements between your bank and the card networks making it very likely that you’ll be made whole.
  - dqv 7d ago
    > likely > will Which is why the credit card is still the better option. Especially given that the max liability on a credit card is always $50 if caught within the first 60 days, while the max liability on a debit card is $50 only if caught within the first two days, then up to $500 if reported after up to 60 days. They may post a provisional credit when I report the fraud on the debit card or they can wait up to 10 days to do so. With a credit card, no money has left my account and I get the final say on whether I want to part ways with my real money. If the bank really wants to fuck me over by saying it's not fraud, I get to make it as unprofitable as possible for them, which includes forcing them to sue me if they really want the money. I will take the ding to my credit report and a lawsuit over actual money taken directly out of my account any day.
    - lxgr 7d ago
      > while the max liability on a debit card is $50 only if caught within the first two days Within two days of learning of the fraudulent use or the loss of an "access device" (i.e. a card). Otherwise you have 60 days from the statement date as well. > I will take the ding to my credit report and a lawsuit over actual money taken directly out of my account any day. That's definitely true for many people, but probably not for many others, e.g. anyone wanting to buy a house or even rent an apartment.
      - dqv 5d ago
        If the money is taken out of your checking account and you can't pay a bill or rent, you are in the same exact situation of having your credit/rental history ruined. The time horizon for that happening is just sooner. The credit card still wins.
  - Johnny555 7d ago
    Eventually you'll probably be made whole (unless the bank isn't one of the ones that waives your $50/$500 liability). But usually they won't return your money until after they resolve the dispute so your account is still missing the disputed money which could make you bounce checks or be unable to use your debit card until the dispute is resolved.
crdrost 7d ago
This was also the subject of a brief sketch on That Mitchell and Webb Look: > Bank official: Sit down Mr. Coleman, I'm, I'm afraid I've got bad news about your account. > Mr. Coleman: Really? > Bank official: I'm very sorry to say that someone's stolen your identity. > Mr. Coleman: Oh God! Do you know who it was? > Bank official: Well -- they said they were you, but uh-- > Mr. Coleman: Of course. So, um, what happened? > Bank official: Well it was on the bank website, someone logged in, and committed identity theft electronically. > Mr. Coleman: I see. Did they take anything else? > Bank official: Uh, no. > Mr. Coleman: Oh good, so all the money's still there... > Bank official: What? > Mr. Coleman: Well: it's just my identity that's gone -- none of your money? > Bank official: Well no, they did -- they, they, emptied your account. It's identity theft, they took all the money. > Mr. Coleman: That sounds more like a bank robbery. [continued] -- see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E for the full skit. Just as a handy thing to chuckle over and then link others to, if the topic comes up again.
Johnny555 7d ago
But that's not what happened when someone steals your debit card number. Once the teller enters the deposit and you walk away from the window, the money in your account is yours, the cash the robbers stole is the banks. When someone steals your debit card number and uses it, it's your money that is debited from your account, not the banks, and debit card transactions have much different rules than credit card transactions where you're generally not held responsible at all for fraudulent transactions) But with debit card transactions, you can be responsible for up to $50 of fraudulent transactions reported within 2 days, and $500 for those reported within 60 days. And the bank is not required to return the money while they investigate the fraud. Though many banks waive those liabilities and treat debit card disputes the same as credit card disputes (but still may not return your money while they investigate, so you could be bouncing checks when someone makes a $1000 fraudulent transaction if you can't float the $1000 yourself while they investigate) I refused to allow the bank to issue me a debit/ATM card against my primary checking account, fortunately they are one of the few banks that still offer a dedicated ATM card so even if I lose the card, it's useless without the PIN.

Hardwired8976 7d ago

Eh when you deposit money with a teller, it gets added to your account, which is in physical terms probably just a big storage and a database who has how much. But in the case of debit card, the card ties the money to your account. It is actually that. It's as if someone would steal from a personal safe at the bank.

lxgr 7d ago
Except that you have strong statutory rights and commercial agreements between your bank and the card networks making it very likely that you’ll be made whole.
- dqv 7d ago
  > likely > will Which is why the credit card is still the better option. Especially given that the max liability on a credit card is always $50 if caught within the first 60 days, while the max liability on a debit card is $50 only if caught within the first two days, then up to $500 if reported after up to 60 days. They may post a provisional credit when I report the fraud on the debit card or they can wait up to 10 days to do so. With a credit card, no money has left my account and I get the final say on whether I want to part ways with my real money. If the bank really wants to fuck me over by saying it's not fraud, I get to make it as unprofitable as possible for them, which includes forcing them to sue me if they really want the money. I will take the ding to my credit report and a lawsuit over actual money taken directly out of my account any day.
  - lxgr 7d ago
    > while the max liability on a debit card is $50 only if caught within the first two days Within two days of learning of the fraudulent use or the loss of an "access device" (i.e. a card). Otherwise you have 60 days from the statement date as well. > I will take the ding to my credit report and a lawsuit over actual money taken directly out of my account any day. That's definitely true for many people, but probably not for many others, e.g. anyone wanting to buy a house or even rent an apartment.
    - dqv 5d ago
      If the money is taken out of your checking account and you can't pay a bill or rent, you are in the same exact situation of having your credit/rental history ruined. The time horizon for that happening is just sooner. The credit card still wins.
- Johnny555 7d ago
  Eventually you'll probably be made whole (unless the bank isn't one of the ones that waives your $50/$500 liability). But usually they won't return your money until after they resolve the dispute so your account is still missing the disputed money which could make you bounce checks or be unable to use your debit card until the dispute is resolved.

crdrost 7d ago

This was also the subject of a brief sketch on That Mitchell and Webb Look: > Bank official: Sit down Mr. Coleman, I'm, I'm afraid I've got bad news about your account. > Mr. Coleman: Really? > Bank official: I'm very sorry to say that someone's stolen your identity. > Mr. Coleman: Oh God! Do you know who it was? > Bank official: Well -- they said they were you, but uh-- > Mr. Coleman: Of course. So, um, what happened? > Bank official: Well it was on the bank website, someone logged in, and committed identity theft electronically. > Mr. Coleman: I see. Did they take anything else? > Bank official: Uh, no. > Mr. Coleman: Oh good, so all the money's still there... > Bank official: What? > Mr. Coleman: Well: it's just my identity that's gone -- none of your money? > Bank official: Well no, they did -- they, they, emptied your account. It's identity theft, they took all the money. > Mr. Coleman: That sounds more like a bank robbery. [continued] -- see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E for the full skit. Just as a handy thing to chuckle over and then link others to, if the topic comes up again.

Johnny555 7d ago

But that's not what happened when someone steals your debit card number. Once the teller enters the deposit and you walk away from the window, the money in your account is yours, the cash the robbers stole is the banks. When someone steals your debit card number and uses it, it's your money that is debited from your account, not the banks, and debit card transactions have much different rules than credit card transactions where you're generally not held responsible at all for fraudulent transactions) But with debit card transactions, you can be responsible for up to $50 of fraudulent transactions reported within 2 days, and $500 for those reported within 60 days. And the bank is not required to return the money while they investigate the fraud. Though many banks waive those liabilities and treat debit card disputes the same as credit card disputes (but still may not return your money while they investigate, so you could be bouncing checks when someone makes a $1000 fraudulent transaction if you can't float the $1000 yourself while they investigate) I refused to allow the bank to issue me a debit/ATM card against my primary checking account, fortunately they are one of the few banks that still offer a dedicated ATM card so even if I lose the card, it's useless without the PIN.